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Ghetto Uprising better known than Warsaw Uprising?


isthatu2 4 | 2,704
23 Jun 2010 #31
ever hear of "fight or flight"?

er,yes;

play the danger down or play it up to the point of panic...

ie,fight.or panic and run.....anyone who has been in a "real" fight,as oppossed to a bar room punch up, will recognise that to function in a fight you have to play the danger down.....

isthatu2:
"rather silly display of foolish pride"
wtf???

Not my quotes,having studied the uprising in detail and having met and discussed it with many actual former AK fighters I stay neutral on the rights or wrongs of involving a 1/4 of a million civilians in a pitched battle with no real hope of victory and only relying on your soviet "allies" to save the day.
plk123 8 | 4,150
24 Jun 2010 #32
relying on your soviet "allies" to save the day.

not relying. but definitely hoping.. PL's allies the UKies and the 'merkins didn't lift a finger either..
scottie1113 7 | 898
24 Jun 2010 #33
How could they have done anything. They were somewhat busy in other parts of the world, or don't you know WWII history? That's not meant as a slam, but I thought your comment was rather pointless.
1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Jun 2010 #34
Scottie is right. The Warsaw Uprising started on 1 August 1944 at 5pm, which is known as Godzina W. We all know that for the British that was Godzina T, so they were busy.
Harry
24 Jun 2010 #35
Remind me which nation flew hundreds of supply missions to the Warsaw Uprising. And then tell me how many the airforce which you used to be a member of flew. Typical Pole: "when you can't blame the Jews blame the British".
David_18 68 | 982
24 Jun 2010 #36
Ehm... The british asked for permision to land on the soviets airport but were denied right?
Harry
24 Jun 2010 #37
Not quite. The Americans and the British asked for permission to use the Soviet airfields (which the US was already using for other missions) to make supply drops. The Soviets refused. Churchill suggested that the Allies send planes anyway, FDR refused. However, the British (along with the South Africans and the Poles) flew hundreds of missions from air bases in Italy (long dangerous flights). The USAAF made a single supply flight when the uprising was clear to fail and the USSR had agreed to allow them to land at a Soviet airbase.

For reasons best known only to them, the Warsaw Uprising museum staff have decided that the refusal of FDR to support Churchill's plan is not worth even mentioning in their vast museum.
1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Jun 2010 #38
Typical Pole: "when you can't blame the Jews blame the British".

No one has mentioned the Jews in respect to the Warsaw Uprising except you. I hope you get over it.
Harry
24 Jun 2010 #39
Would be a bit hard to blame the Jews for the Warsaw Uprising being a failure. Which probably explains why Poles like to blame the British instead. You still haven't told me how many supply missions the airforce you used to be a member of flew.
ZIMMY 6 | 1,601
24 Jun 2010 #40
Americans confuse the two, that's if they even know that there were two uprisings. In fact, when asked about the Warsaw Uprising, the usual response is; "yea, that's when the Jews resisted the Germans".
Bzibzioh
24 Jun 2010 #41
Which probably explains why Poles like to blame the British instead.

Sorry yo tell you but you are the only one to blame the British for failure of Warsaw Uprising. Poles blame Germans and Russians.
1jola 14 | 1,879
24 Jun 2010 #42
You still haven't told me how many supply missions the airforce you used to be a member of flew.

Harry, I took the time to translate and input info that you will not get in your mandatory Holocaust class, which related to the OP. The least you could do is somehow relate to the topic if you want me to comment.
Harry
24 Jun 2010 #43
Sorry yo tell you but you are the only one to blame the British for failure of Warsaw Uprising.

Apparently I'm not: there is a section about the Warsaw Uprising in the Wikipedia article on "Western Betrayal".

The least you could do is somehow relate to the topic if you want me to comment.

And your comment related to British being busy drinking tea related to the topic how exactly?
scottie1113 7 | 898
24 Jun 2010 #44
Americans confuse the two, that's if they even know that there were two uprisings. In fact, when asked about the Warsaw Uprising, the usual response is; "yea, that's when the Jews resisted the Germans".

Man, that's a pretty broadbrush statement. Some of us actually know a little Polish history. Tread softly here.
Bzibzioh
24 Jun 2010 #45
Apparently I'm not: there is a section about the Warsaw Uprising in the Wikipedia article on "Western Betrayal".

And if Wiki said so it must be true. I forgot about your Wiki addiction. Totally my fault.
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #46
MOderators!

100 words + URL

The 100 words + URL is in red. Moderator or Admin. What he or she is referring to is the PF rule #11.

11. Text that is a copy-paste from other online source/s and contain more than 100 direct words may be either deleted or edited. We encourage you to post only original and never published opinions or paraphrase opinions that have already been published.

It is clear from the thread that I am posting material that is not available on the net. I translated it from Polish from a book which I site for the purpose of the discussion. I say so a couple of times. The text was not very long. Is this a mistake or censorship? If a mistake, can you aknowledge that and bring the text back as it clearly did not violate the forum rules. Thank you.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
3 Nov 2010 #47
If a mistake, can you aknowledge that and bring the text back as it clearly did not violate the forum rules. Thank you.

any missing text was probably deleted. the whole post would have been moved otherwise.

if you provide a summary of the text, it might be possible to re-insert it into the original post.

however, i can't promise this.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
3 Nov 2010 #48
Ghetto Uprising better known than Warsaw Uprising?

Yea but it's changing slowly they're starting to write and make documentary films about it more..


1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2010 #49
if you provide a summary of the text, it might be possible to re-insert it into the original post.

Why would I now summerize what took considerable effort to translate in the first place and is not on the web at all.

however, i can't promise this.

Shall I ask the boss then?
nott 3 | 594
9 Nov 2010 #50
Shall I ask the boss then?

Put the text on the net, to make them happy, and provide link here. I'd like to read it. One way is mediafire. If you have Polish version scanned or transcribed, put them there too, please.

A summary would be missing the point completely. Some direct quotes not so.

the British (along with the South Africans and the Poles) flew hundreds of missions from air bases in Italy

Eleven, Harry. Eleven missions, less than 200 sorties. Eleven is 11% of one hundred. Hundreds of missions is your typical harryish take on Polish history and on the way Poles whine about the Allies.
Harry
9 Nov 2010 #51
Eleven, Harry. Eleven missions, less than 200 sorties. Eleven is 11% of one hundred.

Looks like you'd better go and edit Wikipedia: at the moment it doesn't support your lies. The section on airdrops says "The total weight of allied drops varies according to source (104 tons,[95] 230 tons[94] or 239 tons[14]), over 200 flights were made."

But before you go and edit Wikipedia to suit your lies, you'd better understand that to remove the truth you'll also have to hack the website of the Warsaw Rising Museum because it says "Allies make about 200 flights over Warsaw."
nott 3 | 594
9 Nov 2010 #52
At the moment, Wiki does support my claims, as does the WRM website.

'In addition to ammunition, oil and crew, the Liberator could carry a further disposable load of 2,600 pounds (1,180 kg) which was made up of petrol and payload.'

So it's, let's be generous, a ton of payload per flight. Seems the Wiki agrees with the Warsaw museum, and both got it right. Roughly 200 tons, rougly 200 flights. Means sorties, Harry, just as I said, a sortie being A flight of a combat aircraft on a mission. Not a mission, Harry, but one aircraft flying. They did it 11 times, sending about 200 planes in total, in those 11 missions. Eleven missions, Harry, not hundreds of missions.

You were lying, again, and then trying to slander you opponent, again. Mods?

Oh, forget it.
Harry
9 Nov 2010 #53
Means sorties, Harry, just as I said, a sortie being A flight of a combat aircraft on a mission. Not a mission, Harry, but one aircraft flying. They did it 11 times, sending about 200 planes in total, in those 11 missions. Eleven missions, Harry, not hundreds of missions.

I'll listen to men who actually flew missions and sorties to tell me what the words mean. And guess what: they say that you're a liar. Mission Sortie Designation.
nott 3 | 594
9 Nov 2010 #54
I'll listen to men who actually flew missions and sorties

Care to to quote what they say? At your leisure :)

they say that you're a liar

Quote them.
ender 5 | 398
9 Nov 2010 #55
they say that you're a liar

No they not. You are lier sorry double lier. 1st they didn't say he is lier and 2nd they didn't have 200 missions.
Harry
9 Nov 2010 #56
Care to to quote what they say? At your leisure :)

Certainly "I was a Navigator in the 455th Bomb Group 15th AAF stationed at a former country estate called San Giovanni a few miles outside of Cerignola, Italy from January to July 1944 when I finished my "50 mission" tour with 35 combat "sorties" (15 of them were considered "doubles")."

So in reality a 'mission' is less than a 'sortie'. But you claimed that "Eleven missions, less than 200 sorties.". Looks like you were lying, yet again.
ender 5 | 398
10 Nov 2010 #57
But you claimed

You are piece of lie. They did not fly over the Warsaw

San Giovanni a few miles outside of Cerignola, Italy from January to July 1944 when I finished my "50 mission" tour with 35 combat "sorties"

Powstanie warszawskie 1 sierpnia - 3 pa┼║dziernika 1944
pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powstanie_warszawskie

You can't compare two totally different situation.
Twisted lier

Harry-Traitor admit you are twisted lier :-)
nott 3 | 594
10 Nov 2010 #58
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Flax

From that point on missions consisted of three P-40 Squadrons covered by one Spitfire squadron
a mission, four squadrons, less than one sortie, 'in reality'.

31stfightergroup.com/historical_31st/wwii309fs.html

For their second mission of the day the 309th flew with Nos. 81 and 131 squadrons

A mission, three squadrons, which is less than one aircraft, 'in reality'.

During the last mission of the day the squadron intercepted 7 FW-190s

A mission ('less that one aircraft') intercepting 7 Fockewulfs. 'In reality' :)

Harry in reality. Carry on, boy. :)
z_darius 14 | 3,968
10 Nov 2010 #59
Certainly "I was a Navigator in the 455th Bomb Group 15th AAF stationed at a former country estate called San Giovanni a few miles outside of Cerignola, Italy from January to July 1944 when I finished my "50 mission" tour with 35 combat "sorties" (15 of them were considered "doubles")."

That example doesn not explain a whole lot. It does suggest though that there can be one sortie used for multiple missions. For instance, a plane takes off, bombs city A (first mission), on its way back, via a different route, takes aerial photographs of an area (second mission).

But why complicate it?
The definition is clear and simple:
Sortie is a term for deployment or dispatch of one military unit, be it an aircraft, ship, or troops from a strongpoint. The sortie, whether by one or more aircraft or vessels, usually has a specific mission.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortie

Hence, there can be a sortie without a mission, but there cannot be a mission without at least one sortie. A group of planes, say 10, participate in the same mission. That one, single mission required 10 sorties.

Ergo, the alleged "hundreds" of missions the Brits flew to try to help the Warsaw Uprising is hogwash.

Please get back on topic or start a new thread

Please get back on topic or start a new thread

A little late with this comment. It was due a few posts before mine.

Oh, and thank you for the swift action.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
26 Nov 2010 #60
The ghetto rising is mroe widely publicised in schoolbooks in the West. Why is it that a rising which covered only a fraction of the city's area, was much shorter and claimed far fewer lives is better known than the 1944 upheaval?

Why you think?...Jews were involved in the one...Jews run the media, and are powerful in controlling educational materials.


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