The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 530

Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?


Piorun - | 658
19 Feb 2009 #181
Unless you want to say that somebody who might be a Jew can not be a Pole.

Salomon (Solomon or Shlomo or Polish Szlomo) Morel (November 15, 1919 in Grabowo, Poland – February 14, 2007 in Tel Aviv) Funny how a Jew can change the rules when it fits his agenda. So was He Polish or Jewish? To avoid justice Szlomo claimed to be a Jew.

Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak). To avoid justice Wolińska-Brus claimed to be British subject.

So to answer your question I don't think it applies to Jews were you were born, they choose to be somebody else and by their own choice.

It’s called Jewish Loyalty for you. If it means to save their own ar** they can be anything you like them to be.
dtaylor 9 | 823
19 Feb 2009 #182
It’s called Jewish Loyalty for you.

Who cares if it was a Jew, muslim or whatever, it was done.
Harry
19 Feb 2009 #183
Funny how a Jew can change the rules when it fits his agenda. So was He Polish or Jewish? To avoid justice Szlomo claimed to be a Jew.

No, he became an Israeli citizen and was then a Jewish Israeli. Previously he was a Jewish Pole.

Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak). To avoid justice Wolińska-Brus claimed to be British subject.

Wolińska moved to England in 1968 to avoid Polish anti-semitism. She became a British subject in the 1970s. No attempt to bring her to justice was made until the 1990s.

I'm looking forward to you proving that all the Poles involved in the running of the Polish concentration camp were Jewish Poles.
miranda
19 Feb 2009 #184
Why does the answer to that question matter at all?

I was just curious. No pun intended.
Piorun - | 658
19 Feb 2009 #185
Polish anti-semitism

Haaaaaaa!
Prince 15 | 590
19 Feb 2009 #186
No attempt to bring her to justice was made until the 1990s.

When communism ended you idiot ? in 1989!

Wolińska moved to England in 1968 to avoid Polish anti-semitism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Wolińska-Brus

Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak) was a former military prosecutor from Poland, involved in Stalinist regime show trials of the 1950s.She has been implicated in the arrests - and in some cases deaths - of key figures in Poland's anti-Nazi resistance.

Harry
19 Feb 2009 #187
When communism ended you idiot ? in 1989.

I see. So she took British citizenship in the 1970s to avoid prosecution in the 1990s. OK, fair enough.

Harry: Wolińska moved to England in 1968 to avoid Polish anti-semitism.

From that wikipedia page "Wolińska left Poland in 1968 after Polish 1968 political crisis". Click on Polish 1968 political crisis and you see the words "The wave of antisemitism instigated by the communist authorities to divert public attention resulted in the final exodus of Jews from Poland. Before the campaign, the country had 40,000 Jews; within a few years, fewer than 5,000 remained. The episode was especially traumatic as those forced to leave saw themselves as Poles."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_1968_political_crisis
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Feb 2009 #188
Parts 4 and 5 of 15 from Mike Ruppert's Truth and Lies of 9/11 talks about Prescott's contribution to Nazism. Here,
youtube.com/watch?v=pacwTWufu9E&feature=related
JohnP - | 210
19 Feb 2009 #189
Let us not forget who funded the Nazis, da da, Prescott Bush.

While I can't link to your 2.5 hour commentary, please Sean, I thought better of you than this! Everyone was funding the Nazis...until almost the war started they seemed to be all the rage, Adolf Hitler himself was even made Time magazine "man of the year" while people denied the other things he was doing as "rumors"...Saying Prescott Bush or anybody else "funded the Nazis" when in reality everyone was rushing to fund this "new refreshing leader" in Germany...is a bit hasty...sounds familiar to me..

He also says here, youtube.com/watch?v=KzBtE__mZlI that he had incontrovertible evidence that America could have prevented those attacks. I can furnish those like HB with screeds of evidence, in chronological order, showing numerous instance of potential aversions.

(emphasis added) Not sure which attacks you are referring to here? but again, sometimes "America" does not prevent attacks because people perceive there is no real threat. Not to mention, the rest of the world complains when America DOES do something...so honestly, why is it America's fault if someone is attacked, so long as Americans didn't do it? And if Americans DID do it, what makes you think we'd TRY to prevent it (hypothetically speaking, anyway)

It is SOOOO clear that the American government was involved. But, back to the thread, Auschwitz was a reality funded by American sources. Fact!!

Hmmm. Presumably you mean pre-WWII, in which case ALL money going into Germany (not just American) was "funding Auschwitz" if you will. I sincerely doubt there were many (if any) who were sending money earmarked for the "establishment and operation of a facility intended to exploit and or terminate political and religious undesirables to the German government". Rather, most probably swallowed the "Hitler is a great guy doing great things in Europe" bullcrap from the media (nothing changes here...) and were clamoring to send his government help. There were even sympathizers with the Germans etc at least until the war started, what with people in denial of what was occurring, and Hitler being made into a media darling much as has occurred with Hugo Chavez or Ahmadinejad today (the old "misunderstood but benevolent leader" routine). There was no "you tube" in those days to try convincing people, and fact is, many believed the Germans could do no wrong, and the ones who DID know something was amiss, did not want to be dragged into yet another world war. When the war did start, and friendships started to chill over U-boat targetting of US shipping as well as those already in conflict...passenger liners suspected of carrying arms to the British, for instance, being torpedoed. Regardless of whether it was true or not...did not endear Germany to the American people, who had just started to let go of WWI anger and mistrust.

John P.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
19 Feb 2009 #190
John, ... watch this and you will know what I am talking about. Look at part 4 of 15 for evidence that Prescott Bush was behind the funding.

I meant the 9/11 attacks. I could fill your inbox 100 times over with evidence that the American government knew that those attacks were gonna happen. Just watch the above link for starters.

For Rice and Bush to lie like they did, they should be imprisoned. Try 911truth.net for swathes of evidence on it.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
20 Feb 2009 #191
You do realise Harry that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal that includes Bereza Kartuska ?
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #192
You silly man.

You asked this pumkin, warm milk drinking, silly man for that source about a polish boy who joined the Polish Jews smuggling food into the ghetto without asking for gold in return and I gave it. Seems my reply was deleted by mods. So here it is again.

Janek : a gentile in the Warsaw Ghetto / Jan Kostanski Melbourne : Jan Kostanski, 1998.

You also said no memoirs have anything to say about the Polish Blueys corruption and brutallity against the Jews in Warsaw ghetto. I gave you just one which also seems to be deleted by mods (?) so here it is again:

WHY, OH GOD, WHY? HALINA GORCEWICZ
references to Polish 'Blueys' can be found throught the book:
page 70:

Szmulek explained that one of the "blueys" on Dzielna St. was "all right". For a pack of cigarettes and 50 zlotys for himself he made it possible for the boys to pass these parcels over.

page 160

The area is then surrounded with "blueys" and "greens", often with the participation of the Gestapo.

Also:

I'm still waiting for your source of the lie you posted that Polish police were volunteers.

Secret City: The Hidden Jews of Warsaw, 1940-1945 by GS Paulson page 145.
Poulson states that the Polish state police force in Warsaw was increased by 400 new volunteer recruits in April 1942 making 12% of the force.

The Blue Police and Blackmail.
It was not collaborating with the Germans that the Blue police posed the greatest threat to the Jews, however, but rather their freelance activities... Policemen that had once supplemented their incomes with bribes taken from food-smugglers now found a lucrative substitute in extorting money form Jews in hiding. Such instances are found frequently in memoirs.

page 145.

Answer this. Which police force did more damage to the ghetto population? Granatowa or the Jewish ghetto police?

Ringelbulm: Relations
page 133-4
The Polish Blue Police, commonly called the Blue or uniformed police in order to avoid using the term 'Polish' has played the most lamentable role in the extermination of the Jews of Poland. The uniformed police has been the enthusiastic executor of all the German directives regarding the Jews. The powers of the uniformed police in the sphere of collaborating with the Germans concerning the Jews were as follows: (1) guarding the exit gates of the ghetto as well as the walls and fences enclosing the Ghettos or Jewish districts; (2) participating in the "resettlement actions" in the capacity of catchers, escorts; etc; (3) participating in the tracking down of Jews after "resettlement actions"; (4) shooting Jews sentenced to death by the Germans.

However like all groups there were good as well as bad. I have never denied that there were good 'Blueys' as there were Jewish Police but you have consistently tried to make out there were none as bad as the Jewish Police... which clearly is not true. You have consistently said there we NO 'Bluey' volunteers which is also economical with the truth!

Hmmm. Presumably you mean pre-WWII, in which case ALL money going into Germany (not just American) was "funding Auschwitz" if you will.

Afraid not JohnP. USA was still selling Coke-Cola to the Hitler youth (and even advertised in Hitler Youth magazines) until America deaclared was on Germany in 1941 following Pear Harbor. IBM punch-card data collection machines were used by Eichman to record personal details of Jews during the Holocuast.

NYTimes Friday, February 20, 2009

In Germany, the period presented marketing problems.

query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE6D6153CF936A2575BC0A965958260

But you are right pre-war most large multinational companies (from US, UK, France, Holland etc, ) had sales operations or German operating divisions that indirectly or directly funded the Nazi state and its concentration camps in 1930's Germany.
Harry
20 Feb 2009 #193
You do realise Harry that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal that includes Bereza Kartuska ?

What is it about the subject of Polish concentration camps that makes so many Poles start telling lies?

It is not at all illegal to use the term "Polish concentration camps" and when the term is used to talk about Bereza Kartuska and the post-WWII Polish 'labour' camps, it is entirely accurate.

If you think that it is ilegal to use the term, I would suggest that you:
a) Post the name of the relevant act and the Article and paragraph number (or just the Journal of Laws entry number, I can easily find it from that), or just admit that you are lying as usual.

b) Report me to the public prosecutor in Warsaw so I can have a trial. I'm sure Poland would love an open court hearing all about the crimes that took place in the Polish concentration camps. After that we could discuss why only so few attempts have been made to arrange trials for the people who ran those camps.
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #194
You do realise Harry that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal that includes Bereza Kartuska ?

You have said this a couple of times so I decided to ask our company lawyers at Hogan & Hartson in Warsaw for some clarification:

"Is use the term 'Polish concentration camps' illegal in Poland? I have never heard this before and wondered if you might know if there a law that bans the use of 'Polish concentration Camps'?"

There is no such legal ban in Poland. Obviously, as you may imagine, the Polish public opinion is not happy with the extensive use of this term in Western media. My personal feelings are hurt as well, being myself a grandson of a non-Jewish Auschwitz prisoner. For some years now here has been a massive campaign by "Rzeczpospolita" daily, aimed at increasing awareness in Poland of the use of this term in the US and Western Europe. As the result, whenever the use of this phrase is spotted, Polish consulates and other diplomatic representative offices usually react and apologies and corrections are requested from newspapers. It is difficult to assess, though, if this systematic approach contributes to reduction of this phenomenon.

Harry
20 Feb 2009 #195
It looks to me that the guy from H & H is talking about the Nazi-era camps (which were most certainly not "Polish" in any way at all), not about the pre-WWII and post-WWII Polish concentration camps (i.e. the concentration camps which were run by Poles, guarded by Poles, managed by Poles and existed at the order of a Polish government which is made up of Poles).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
20 Feb 2009 #196
"Is use the term 'Polish concentration camps' illegal in Poland? I have never heard this before and wondered if you might know if there a law that bans the use of 'Polish concentration Camps'?"

Ask them about "defamation of the polish nation" and the case of "Najwyższy Czas" from November 2007 where they incidentally did use the term concentration camp in regards to Bereza Kartuska and then hire better lawyers :)

Lets talk about British concentration camps run by British which were in fact even worse than Nazi camps in many respects :)
Wroclaw 44 | 5,385
20 Feb 2009 #197
Lets talk about British concentration camps run by British which were in fact even worse than Nazi camps in many respects :)

Not in this thread, thank you.
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #198
It looks to me that the guy from H & H is talking about the Nazi-era camps

Yes he was. But I was only asking specifically if that using the term "polish concentration camps" is highly illegal as Sokrates has been claiming.

Well that point is cleared up—Sokrates statement is ficticious.

Re-post WWII Polish camps: I am with you as far as the 'run by Poles, Poles, guarded by Poles, managed by Poles and existed at the order of a Polish government (which is made up of Poles)', but I personally would use term Polish internment camps rather than concentration camps as most people equate concentration camps=extermination camps that were part of the Nazi Holocaust. Whereas post-war Polish internment camps/concentration camps, were not, in my opinion entirely same as these Nazi camps. I agree with the point you are trying to make but not the term itself. Also can't argue against the facts that the concentration camps were used prior to the Holocaust and afterwards.

"defamation of the polish nation"

Now you move sideways once more ...

You stated specifically it was 'highly illegal to use the term Polish Cocentration Camps' —which is proved a fiction and I value our lawyers opinion any day of the week rather than your fictions.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
20 Feb 2009 #199
Well we're going to check this in practice since i'm before going to have a beer i'll sidestep to our local police office, i called them this morning seeing as board moderation is twiddling its thumbs and not reacting and you're having fun.

The lady patched me through to the industrial crimes office which takes care of internet crimes and such and i presented my case, the official name of the camp is "obóz internowania" and calling concentration camp is seen as defamation.

So here's what we gonna do, i'm going to drop by them and report what transpired here and then you can keep us up to date, if for example in the coming weeks the law doesnt come after Harry that means our police doesnt know squat about our own laws since they claim its a crime and i was wrong as well.

Best way to find out mr racist is in practice :-)

Also defamation of the Polish nation is a crime and subject to criminal code rather than the civil code, its punishable by prison ( usually in suspension ) rather than fees.

Since this forum is representative towards foreigners i feel that i should go out of my way to stamp out anti-polish sentiment of people posting here with express desire to defame and insult polish posters.
1jola 14 | 1,879
20 Feb 2009 #200
Sjam,

I'd like to continue our conversation on another thread perhaps. This one is just getting tired. Harry is spamming again. Jewish posters do that when they find the topic uncomfortable, with the Jewish Gestapo agents and all.

BTW, some of my posts were deleted too. A mod told me not to post too long of passages of text. You know us Polaks, we never read the rules.
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #201
Well we're going to check this in practice since i'm before going to have a beer i'll sidestep to our local police office, i called them this morning seeing as board moderation is twiddling its thumbs and not reacting and you're having fun.

King of comedy!

So here's what we gonna do

Well Sokrates if you see medics at the Police station holding a big syringe ... look out as they'll have come for you :-))
Harry
20 Feb 2009 #202
I personally would use term Polish internment camps rather than concentration camps as most people equate concentration camps=extermination camps that were part of the Nazi Holocaust. Whereas post-war Polish internment camps/concentration camps, were not, in my opinion entirely same as these Nazi camps.

Of course the post-war camps were not the same as the Nazi extermination camps. But those were extermination camps, not concentration camps! That most people might equate concentration camps with the Aktion Reinhard camps is as irrelevant as the fact that the Aktion Reinhard camps were not called extermination camps by the Nazis.

The death rates in the post-WWII Polish camps were close to the levels seen in the British Boer war camps and those are rightly called concentration camps. The Polish camps were not internment camps in the model of the US camps for Japanese in WWII.

Well we're going to check this in practice since i'm before going to have a beer i'll sidestep to our local police office, i called them this morning seeing as board moderation is twiddling its thumbs and not reacting and you're having fun.
...
So here's what we gonna do, i'm going to drop by them and report what transpired here and then you can keep us up to date,

You go right ahead and do that. Please. I'll quite happily stand up in court and argue that the statement can not be defamatory because it is true.

And I'd love the publicity too.

Harry is spamming again. Jewish posters do that when they find the topic uncomfortable, with the Jewish Gestapo agents and all.

I am not in the slightest bit uncomfortable with discussing Jewish Gestapo agents. But that might have something to do with my Jewishness (or lack thereof). Nice to see you engaging in yet another spot of casual racism though.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
20 Feb 2009 #203
And I'd love the publicity too.

What publicity ? I'm not involved, anti-polish crimes are taken care of administratively so i'll count on you keeping us up to date, you might also reread your previous posts with "polish racists" and so on before you go on being arrogant and overconfident :)
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #204
That most people might equate concentration camps with the Aktion Reinhard camps is as irrelevant

Actually not, if you want to help people understand the difference between Nazi concentration camps and extermination camps and those Post-war Polish internment/concentration camps.

For example I believe Treblinka and Sobibor were purely extermination camps whereas Auschwitz was both an exterminantion camp and a concentration camp; for the majority of Jews it was an extermination camp, whereas for the majority of non-Jews is was a concentration camp ie; Polish political prisoners like Pilecki and my Warsaw lawyer's grandfather and my own grandmother at Ravensbruck; were not automatically faced with selection for death or work unlike the Jews arriving at Auschwitz and other concentration camps.

That is my view only.
Harry
20 Feb 2009 #205
For example I believe Treblinka and Sobibor were purely extermination camps whereas Auschwitz was both an exterminantion camp and a concentration camp;

Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzac were purely extermination camps. Auschwitz I was a concentration camp. Auschwitz II (Birkenau) was a mixed extermination and concentration camp. Majdanek also started as a concentration camp and became an extermination camp.

What publicity ? I'm not involved, anti-polish crimes are taken care of administratively so i'll count on you keeping us up to date, you might also reread your previous posts with "polish racists" and so on before you go on being arrogant and overconfident :)

You think that a trial in a country which has so far failed to prosecute any of the commanders of its concentration camps involving a foreigner who dares to speak the truth would attract no media attention at all? The German press would lap it up! I could invite people who survived the camps to come and give evidence and they could ask why the people who commanded the camps haven't been prosecuted but somebody who calls a concentration camp a concentration camp gets prosecuted.
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #206
Harry this is exactly why I personally believe there should be some distiction made between the terminology used to describe both of these types of Nazi camps and the post-war Polish internment/concentration camps-what ever they might be called.

For example; the principles involved in setting up the Warsaw Rising Museum did some research which clearly showed that the majority of those outside of Poland when asked about the Warsaw Urprising overwhelmingly linked these keywords with the Jewish Ghetto Uprising of 1943 and not the Warsaw Uprising 1944, in fact many had not even heard about the 1944 uprising! So they made the decision to differentiate the two uprisings (over a period of time) by refering to the 1944 Uprising as the 'Warsaw Rising' so there would be a distinct difference in public perception.... and no it wasn't because Norman Davies used it in his book title in case anyone asks:-)

I am not saying you should accept my interpretation nor do I see what you are saying as anti-polish and if you want to call them post-war Polish concentration camps this is fine by me as I understand what your are saying; but arriving at terms of reference that are easliy understood by all is always difficult.
Harry
20 Feb 2009 #207
As Wikipedia notes "The Nazi concentration camps were basically places of mistreatment, starvation, forced labour, and killings. Due to this fact the expression has been, sometimes and erroneously, intended in its most pejorative sense; to avoid this misunderstanding often governments and organizations describe its own facilities using euphemisms such as internment camp, resettlement camp, detention facility, etc, regardless of the actual circumstances of the camp, which can vary a great deal."
sjam 2 | 541
20 Feb 2009 #208
Can't really argue with who ever wrote that and it sort of illustrates the point I was trying to make.
1jola 14 | 1,879
20 Feb 2009 #209
I am not in the slightest bit uncomfortable with discussing Jewish Gestapo agents.

Then why are you not discussing it on a thread that is called "Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?"

If you want to discuss what you only call "Polish concentration camps"(sic), which you repeatedly "discuss" on many threads, why don't you start your own thread.

Your whole approach to the subject is making you a fool on this forum and I hope you will get widder attention. After all, you depend on Poles for your livelyhood. People are telling you over and over that to call Stalinist communist camps Polish camps is about as accurate as calling the Nazi camps Polish camps. If you insist, you might find yourself in trouble in this country.

Now, start a thread on the topic you want to discuss and go there.

Buh, bye.
Harry
20 Feb 2009 #210
Then why are you not discussing it on a thread that is called "Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?"

What would you like to discuss? That some Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII? Fine. Although it will be a rather short discussion: you'll say "Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII" and I'll say "Some Polish Jews were complete and utter bastards during WWII". End of discussion.

If you want to discuss what you only call "Polish concentration camps"(sic), which you repeatedly "discuss" on many threads, why don't you start your own thread.

Because this thread is to discuss Auschwitz. So let's discuss what happened on the site of Auschwitz after WWII.

Your whole approach to the subject is making you a fool on this forum and I hope you will get widder attention. After all, you depend on Poles for your livelyhood. People are telling you over and over that to call Stalinist communist camps Polish camps is about as accurate as clling the Nazi camps Polish camps.

So the Stalinist camps were not run by Poles, were not guarded by Poles, were not managed by Poles and did not exist at the order of a Polish government which was made up of Poles? OK, guess they weren't Polish then. One thing though: why did the camps outlast Stalin?

If you insist, you might find yourself in trouble in this country.

You know my name, you know where I live, you know where I drink. If you want to come and give me some trouble, feel very free to do so.


Home / History / Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.