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Can anyone from Poland tell me about Auschwitz and The Ghetto?



Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #31

Tell me one thing. How this discriminated Jews could be commanders in "concentration camps" ? You like to talk about after WWII pogroms and so on.

Tell me why this people could make carrer in Poland :

We're already having this discussion in another thread. There's no reason to have it here as well.

Now, given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.

Either tell me that or admit that you were yet again telling lies which befit your anti-semitism.


Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #32

I have been talking about Morel who have been living in Israel.

She defended herself as victim of anti semite plot.

Helena Wolińska-Brus (1919-2008) (born as Fajga Mindla Danielak) was a former military prosecutor from Poland, involved in Stalinist regime show trials of the 1950s. She has been implicated in the arrests - and in some cases deaths - of key figures in Poland's anti-Nazi resistance. From 1999-2008, Poland had been seeking the extradition of Wolińska from the United Kingdom to stand trial in Poland. The official charges against her were initiated by the Commission for Investigating Crimes against the Polish Nation. Wolińska was accused of being an "accessory to a court murder,"

Wolińska was born in a Polish Jewish family in Warsaw.

In an interview with The Sunday Telegraph, Wolińska said she would not return to "the country of Auschwitz and Birkenau", claiming she would not receive fair trial in Poland. Despite her involvement in Stalinist-era crimes she called to forget that period in her life and, in her own words, "not to disrupt her with this silly prosecution"

Jakub Berman organised this camps ... there is much more examples.

Tell me Harry how it was possible for this people to make career in post war Poland ?
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #33

She defended herself as victime of anti semite plot.

Helena Wolińska-Brus

This topic is well discussed in the thread I linked to (along with the fact that an arrest warrant was issued for Wolińska-Brus but somehow the Polish authorities haven't got round to persecuting, sorry, I mean 'prosecuting' the Catholic Poles who took part in the Fieldorf 'trial' and live/lived in Warsaw).

Jakub Berman organised this camps ... there is much more examples.

Tell me Harry how it was possible for this people to make carrer in post war Poland ?

This is all discussed in that thread.

I have been talkinga about Morel who have been living in Israel.

Liar. You said "give me commanders names :) Tell me why they [the camp commanders] live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish. " You were not only talking about Morel.

Now, given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.
celinski 31 | 1,260    
18 Feb 2009  #34

Would you like us to talk about the post-WWII Polish concentration camps

Are you referring to "Communist controled/occupied Poland? Silly you keep forgetting this part of history.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #35

Yes Carol: I am referring to the concentration camps run by Poles for Poles at the time when the Polish leadership of Poland was communist.

Where is Prince?!

I am waiting for his answers (but I think I will never receive any).
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #36

Harry of course there were commies of all origins in communist party.

Communist had minimal support in Poland but Soviet Army was in our country ...

Anny way when we talk about post war Poland and anit semitism.

Some personalities show us that communist Jews were making career in post war Poland. One even organised camps you have mentioned. (of course not all people with Jewish origin were commies)

But when we talk about achievments of Polish Jews ... everybody talks about Jews.

When we talk about crimes ... they are Poles ... of course they claim to be Jews when somebody wants trial and extradition for them.

I am referring to the concentration camps

They were set up by NKVD.
sjam 2 | 541    
18 Feb 2009  #37

Can you honestly say, under the same circumstances that you would not have done anything to keep your family safe, warm and fed? It's really easy to say how a person might react in a situation, but until you have walked in those shoes, you just cant.

I do have some little knowledge of how it might feel to be in this situation from my late father who was deported to Germany as forced worker in German munitions plant at Nurnberg-Feucht (MUNA-Feucht) as a 14 year old boy from Warsaw in August 1942. My grandmother a kindergarten teacher aged 43 survived KZ Ravensbruck (where she was deported to from Warsaw in April 1941) and then she was transported to KZ Sachsenhausen at some point in 1944 and then onto a sub-camp of KZ Sachsenhausen called Genthin where she was sent in October 1942, to a munitions plant where Polish women were worked to death at the rate of 500+ per month. But I have no direct experience of the life-threating fear that they must of felt and suffered at the time.

I do not blame anyone for acting in their family's best interests or for self-preservation. But it is not right to point at one group ie. Jewish police being responsible for evils against Warsaw ghetto Jews and not also include those Polish Blue police and German guards who were involved in the well published corruption and brutal exploitation of the Jews of the Warsaw ghetto for personal gain rather than purely self-preservation. To me that there is a difference.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #38

They were set up by NKVD.

And then rule by Poles at the order of Polish governments which were made up of Poles.

Now, for the third time of asking, given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.
sjam 2 | 541    
18 Feb 2009  #39

Your wasting your time on this infinite loop of the discredited, been there before on different thread. Infinite loop of the discredited... been there before on different thread infinite loop of the discredited, been there before on different thread infinite loop of the discredited...

Must be in living in Cupertino or Milton Keynes:-)
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #40

And then rule by Poles at the order of Polish governments which were made up of Poles. Now, for the third time of asking, given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.

Two of commanders were ethnic Poles but it doesn't change annything. Communism was imposed on Poland by Soviets. Communists were in all european countries. Today there is communist party in France or Italy. It doesn't change the fact that some people escaped to Israel (Morel) or UK (Wolińska) and claimed to be vicitmes of anti semit plot even they particpated in this terror.

Without betrayal in Yalta there was no chances for communism in Poland.

The best prove war in 1920 when Poland beaten Soviet Union and smashing majority of Polish citizens supported Poland not this international idea of communism.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #41

Two of commanders were ethnic Poles but it doesn't change annything

Now, for the fourth time of asking, given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.

Either tell me the answers to those questions or admit that you were yet again telling lies which befit your anti-semitism.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #42

MOREL

and I am not anti semite.

Polish government was trying to catch him but Israel rejected.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #43

MOREL

Well done.

We have now established that one of the camp commanders was a Jewish Pole.

Polish government was trying to catch him but Israel rejected.

Yes, it just took them 47 years of him living in Poland after committing his crimes before they decided to try and arrest him....

But given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", for the fifth time of asking, please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.

Either tell me the answers to those questions or admit that you were yet again telling lies which befit your anti-semitism.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #44

He is dead but: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman

Jakub Berman (December 26, 1901, in Warsaw, then Russian Empire - April 10, 1984), was a Polish communist politician. As a member of the Polish United Workers' Party's Politburo he was in charge of State Security Services (Urząd Bezpieczeństwa) and considered Joseph Stalin's right hand in the People's Republic of Poland between 1944 and 1953.

Between 1944-1956 Berman was a member of Politbiuro of Polish United Workers' Party (PUWP) responsible for Urząd Bezpieczeństwa (State Security Services), propaganda, and ideology. In this capacity he was directly responsible for Stalinist-type terror and repressions against real and imagined political opponents of the communist regime in Poland. Urząd Bezpieczeństwa prosecution of ex-Home Army members, Roman Catholic Church clergy, and purges in the military, resulted in at least 6,000 death sentences, imprisonment and prosecuction of estimated 500,000 Polish patriots.

He organised this camps and was right hand of Stalin in post war Poland.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #45

And he has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Given that you claimed that the commanders of the post WWII camps "live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish", for the sixth time of asking, please tell me: when Czesław Gęborski ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; when Aleksy Krut ever claimed to be Jewish and when he went to Israel; who was in charge at Potulice and where he lives/lived in Israel; who was in charge at Jaworzno and where he lives/lived in Israel.

Either tell me the answers to those questions or admit that you were yet again telling lies which befit your anti-semitism.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #46

Why you call me anti-semite ? I show you person who organised terror in post WWII Poland and camps you have mentioned. Of course there were "ethnic Polich commies"

You can find communist party in modern France.

Commies before WWII were miniority among whole Polish population.

When we look on Jews in pre WWII Poland

According to Jaff Schatz's summary of Jewish participation in the prewar Polish communist movement:

Throughout the whole interwar period, Jews constituted a very important segment of the Communist movement. According to Polish sources and to Western estimates, the proportion of Jews in the KPP [the Communist Party of Poland] was never lower than 22 percent. In the larger cities, the percentage of Jews in the KPP often exceeded 50 percent and in smaller cities, frequently over 60 percent. Given this background, a respondent's statement that "in small cities like ours, almost all Communists were Jews," does not appear to be a gross exaggeration.

It is part of history. It is not anti semitism. Not all Jews were commies. Marek Edelman is Polish hero.
Harry 81 | 13,431    
18 Feb 2009  #47

Strange how we go from:

Tell me more about Post WWII camps and give me commanders names :) Tell me why they live in Israel and claim to be Israelis not Polish.

to

Two of commanders were ethnic Poles but it doesn't change annything.

Looks like Prince has yet again been telling lies which try to make Jews look bad! What a surprise.

I show you person who organised terror in post WWII Poland and camps you have mentioned.

And more lies! You haven't named the two Jewish Poles which you claim ran the Potulice and Jaworzno concentration camps.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #48

It seems that some people have problem with history. There were communist Poles. They were miniority. In pre WWII Poland they were in miniority after WWII communism was imposed on Poland. Camps were build by NKVD and some commies of all origins :) operated them.

When we look on ethnic origin of this people we can clearly say that being Jew wasn't barrer in career in comunist Poland.

It is part of Polish history and Harry you should face it.
miranda    
18 Feb 2009  #49

When we look on ethnic origin of this people we can clearly say that being Jew wasn't barrer in career in comunist Poland.

that would be only true if you could provide a % of Jewish decent people faring well during the communist times. Taking into the consideration the fact the the pre-war Poland consisted of almost 20% of Jewish population in some pars, no wonder that some ended up as members of the communist party.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #50

Jews made 10% of pre WWII Poland.

As to career in post WWII times ... just read the names I have mentioned.
miranda    
18 Feb 2009  #51

Jews made 10% of pre WWII Poland.

still:)

A recent study by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance showed that out of 450 people in director positions in the Ministry between 1944 and 1954, 167 (37.1%) were of Jewish ethnicity, while Jews made up approximately 1% of the post-war Polish population

so what are you trying to prove here? That Jewish people had opportunities, or were cruel, full of hate nation who wanted to get back at Poles for all the years of anti-semitism, suffering or just plainly out of spite?

It is not enough to quite the statistics. You need to show the relevance to the argument here:)
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #52

still:)

It is not my motive to prove that Jews were more commie or less commie.

so what are you trying to prove here? That Jewish people had opportunities, or were cruel, full of hate nation who wanted to get back at Poles for all the years of anti-semitism, suffering or just plainly out of spite?It is not enough to quite the statistics. You need to show the relevance to the argument here:)

I don't agree with your statement but it very interesting to see your interpertation. So it is in your opinion the reason of Morels special love towards Ukrainians ?
miranda    
18 Feb 2009  #53

Morel loved Ukrianians. :)

what do Ukrainians have to do with this topic now??????DO you have to resort to nationality when you are running out of arguments? That is pretty low and uncalled for. I am sure you can do better than that;)

It is not my motive to prove that Jews were more commie or less commie.

what is your point then?
Trevek 26 | 1,704    
18 Feb 2009  #54

I think the 1938 reference of the OP might be a confusion with German camps which were active before the outbreak of war which are now in Polish territories (wasn't there one near Gdansk?).

Auschwitz was originally a Polish army barracks and was used to house Polish prisoners until the destruction of the ghettoes. Jews weren't interred there for a couple of years (waiting until they'd killed enough Poles, I suppose).

An interesting ghetto to consider would be £odz. The Jewish leader there (Rumkowski?) controlled a lot of what went on and pulled a lot of deals with the Nazis. Although the ghetto had better provisions and facilities than many others he also gave the speech to his people about "give me your children" to send to the camps. Check wikipedia, it has some interesting stuff.

Regarding Ukranians, there were concentration (holding) camps during Akcja Wisła in 1947 during the time they were being transported across Poland but not the same thing as a nazi one. Likewise there were camps for holding German civilians after the war before they were shipped to Germany.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #55

what is your point then?

My point is that post WWII Poland was hard place to live for smashing majority of people.

But if somebody was commie could have good life ... being Jew or Pole. The other fact is that this system was imposed on Poland by Red Army.

what do Ukrainians have to do with this topic now

You haven't "catched" it :) Maybe it is better.
miranda    
18 Feb 2009  #56

But if somebody was commie could have good life ... being Jew or Pole.

could but it doesn't mean they did. I personally would not want to be in their shoes.

You haven't "catched" it :) Maybe it is better.

maybe. I think that it is better to be clear and not to resort to sarcasm. It is already forgotten.
Prince 15 | 592    
18 Feb 2009  #57

could but it doesn't mean they did.

Some did some didn't. It seems that those who did hated the most those who didn't

I personally would not want to be in their shoes.

Why ?
miranda    
18 Feb 2009  #58

Why ?

I don't think that they could sleep at night, because I would not be able to. If if they benefited, it must have ended at one point. It was a small group of people who were making choices for profit or actually believed in communism - a pretty bad way to live.
Seanus 15 | 19,748    
18 Feb 2009  #59

What an eerie place it is. It has its own aura about it. It is full of information posts and evidence. Well worth going to and capturing the lull around it.
OP _Fiish_ 2 | 9    
19 Feb 2009  #60

No Im not preaching anything. I just read something wrong, and I thought they they didn't learn about it at school.




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