The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / History  % width posts: 300

For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?


dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #121
I'd consider name calling, hardly just tongue and cheek.

Groupie Definition as used in the context "an enthusiastic or uncritical follower"

As for the use of German a fair assumption given the poster is able to vote in a main election.
Tacitus 2 | 817
5 Aug 2017  #122
Regarding Merkel, the video starts by showing a passage of her speech printed by a newspaper:

"Wir haben unendliches Leid über die Welt gebracht!" We have brought endless suffering upon the world.

Totally downplaying German responsiblity here.... .

Groupie Definition as used in the context "an enthusiastic or uncritical follower"

I am neither of those, but I will end up voting for Merkel because for all her faults, she is the best Germany has to offer right now.

I just don't like if people (or in this case politicians like JK) make blatantly untrue statements.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #123
I see JK and Merkel as flawed poiticians, for me they both carry too much baggage from the bad old days.
Ironside 47 | 9,613
5 Aug 2017  #124
One of the reasons why it really makes no sense that Kaczyński brings it up again.

But but ....he is not bring up those territories, he says nothing about it. It is you or some others (lol) posters that immediately bring it up.

Is he even talking about it now? I know it had been mentioned by one or the other (lol) twin that there need to be made an estimation how much in todays money would price destruction by the Germans during the wwII of Warsaw (initially) and other (lol) cities and places that have been devastated by the Germans - desolation and ruins. It had been rebuilt by Poles without Marshall Plan or any other (lol) significant help from anyone.
TheOther 5 | 3,641
5 Aug 2017  #125
Anti German and Nazi? do you see the ambiguity of your comment.

You misunderstood. They are an anti-German rag because they equate modern day Germany to the Third Reich on a regular basis. On top of that, they regurgitate WW2 ad nauseam (the Nazi articles I was referring to). The Daily Fail isn't only anti-German, by the way. It's also quite anti-Polish. Just read their articles on Polish nationals working in the UK, and then have fun with the comments section.

What should I read?

Anything. Even Breitfart is a scientific journal compared to the Daily Mail. :)

he is not bring up those territories, he says nothing about it.

No, he's "only" suggesting that Germany should pay reparations - which automatically brings us back to the 1954 agreement.

the other (lol)

Don't be childish, Iron.
Nosedliw27 1 | 7
5 Aug 2017  #126
I'm from the US and have visited Warsaw and Krakow. The history is tragic and the poles have every right to demand reparations. The polish people were by far the nicest people I met when traveling in Europe.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #127
automatically brings us back to the 1954 agreement.

The agreement that was signed in 1954 has no basis as it was signed by the Soviet puppet government.

The true Government of the republic of Poland was in fact based in Lomdon since the war, power has handed back in a ceremony in Poland in 1990, after free elections.

msz.gov.pl/en/p/rie_gb_en/republic_in_exile

Poles do not recoognise the Soviet PRL as ever being a legitimate government of Poland

Where in fact the government in exile was recognised.

In December 1990, when Lech Wałęsa became the first non-Communist president of Poland since the war, he received the symbols of the Polish Republic (the presidential banner, the presidential and state seals, the presidential sashes, and the original text of the 1935 Constitution) from the last president of the government in exile, Ryszard Kaczorowski.[32] In 1992, military medals and other decorations awarded by the government in exile were officially recognized in Poland.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_government-in-exile

So if Germany did a deal in 1954 it was with a Soviet commie puppet government.(they didn't have the state seal to authorise anything)
mafketis 19 | 7,002
5 Aug 2017  #128
The agreement that was signed in 1954 has no basis as it was signed by the Soviet puppet government.

So if Germany did a deal in 1954 it was with a Soviet commie puppet government

Living in what used to be Germany you should be careful about what doors you're opening up. If the reparations are up for renegotiation then so are borders. You don't get one without the other.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #129
Living in what used to be Germany

Not my choice I will be happy to return to my family farms in the east once an agreement is reached to resume pre war borders, but I will be expecting a good relocation package with sufficient funds to reinstate our builbings and land in the east, I am sure that there are also many others here who were relocated from the east that would agree with me.
Tacitus 2 | 817
5 Aug 2017  #130
The agreement that was signed in 1954 has no basis as it was signed by the Soviet puppet governmen

This is legally speaking of no consequence as explained. From what I have read, there are still treaties in effect that were signed by said government.

they didn't have the state seal to authorise anything)

As if such a thing matters in international relations. Like it or not, the government in Poland was eventually recognized by the whole world, as evidenced by the fact that every country had full diplomatic missions in Poland.

Bit even if you decide against any basis that the treaty of 1954 (and 1970) somehow doesnt count, there is still the matter of fact that a democratic Polish government sogned a treaty with Germany in 1991 that confirmed among other things that apart of some reparation for Polish individuals no further reparations would be claimed.
mafketis 19 | 7,002
5 Aug 2017  #131
but I will be expecting a good relocation package

And a pony? Surely they could kick in a pony too!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #132
treaty with Germany in 1991 that confirmed

I do not disagree

This old argument has been boiling for ages take a look at this interesting article from 2004.
wsws.org/en/articles/2004/11/pola-n06.html

but sums up

Within a historical context, the Polish demands of the German government are more than justified. The destruction inflicted on Poland in the course of its occupation by the German army cannot be underestimated. Approximately one fifth of the entire Polish population, including thousands of Jews, lost their lives.

What needs to be done to sort this out once and for all is for the case to go before an international court of law.

But If Germany hadn't started WWII and invaded Poland we wouldn't have this problem, I just hope Germany will pick up the legal bill as a good will gesture.

P.S I like Germany and its people, the old Nazis are mainly dead and rotting in graves, Its shame a great post war nation is going downhill because of Merkels crazy policies.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #133
And a pony? Surely they could kick in a pony too!

If the state of the roads in the east are as bad as the ones here I will need one.

First thing I did when I came to Silesia is dump the Bentley and get a 4x4.
cms 9 | 1,272
5 Aug 2017  #134
Does that mean that we are free to ignore any laws dating from 1946 to 1989 ? In that case it is awesome as I would no longer have to clean the snow from the pavement outside my house and can drink what I want before I drive.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #135
clean the snow from the pavement outside my house and can drink what I want before I drive.

Yep you carry on, alot of Judgements from the PRL days need testing, especially those wrongfuly sent to prison or worse, but I think you may be on to a loser with the above two
Harry
5 Aug 2017  #136
I will be expecting a good relocation package with sufficient funds to reinstate our builbings and land in the east

Knowing Ukrainians as well as I do I would personally be happy to kick in a few quid for the comedy of seeing you trying to reclaim your 'ancestral lands' there.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #137
comedy of seeing you trying to reclaim your 'ancestral lands' there.

Did I say I want to reclaim them the discussion here is that claims for financial reperations may also entail border disputes and a poster here rightly stated that I may be asked to move, the only logical solution being going back to pre war borders. get with it harry and catch up on what has been posted before you dive in
Harry
5 Aug 2017  #138
the only logical solution being going back to pre war borders.

I'm off to Lviv later this month, will happily pay for your beer in any pub in the city you want to go to and announce your support of that logic. Although I fear that your chances of getting anybody to agree with you will be even smaller than the chances of Poland getting any further reparations out of Germany.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #139
announce your support of that logic.

Where did you get the idea that I supported that logic, I would only move due to the consequences of an international agreement on border change.

will happily pay for your beer in any pub in the city you want to go to and announce your support of that logic.

What is you obsession with buying beer and starting bar fights over potential international border agreements.

Honestly Harry you are worse than a horsefly when it comes to chasing me around this forum, posting mis truths and using inuendo that iply some violent act should befall me in some random bar somewhere.
Harry
5 Aug 2017  #140
What is you obsession with buying beer and starting bar fights over potential international border agreements.

What is your obsession with making claims about me which are entirely untrue? Perhaps you'd like to link to some of my posts about "buying beer and starting bar fights over potential international border agreements" so as to show I have an obsession with that? Or would you prefer to admit that your claim has even less truth behind it than claims that Germany owes Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?

using inuendo that iply some violent act should befall me in some random bar somewhere.

I didn't mean to imply that some violent act will befall you in some random bar somewhere, I meant to point out that if you go to Ukraine and start telling the people there that you are back to reclaim your 'ancestral property' and they can get orf your land, things will not end well for you.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #141
they can get orf your land, things will not end well for you.

What are you jibbering about why would I do that, am not a policeman or bailif, its a matter for international courts if they get involved at all, I was not the one who raised the subject in this topic

Perhaps you'd like to link to some of my posts about

Im bored of doing that .

Why don't you just join into the conversation in a civil manner, and catch up on what has been said by whom , and ask a direct question like.

Dolno do you agree Germany should pay , Answer no but the whole thing needs sorting out in a court of international law once and for all so yes it should go to trial.

Dolno do you want to go fight and get your lands back in the East. Answer is no, too much grief as innocent people would be involved.

Feel free to join in and keep the thread on topic , as it is quite interesting , I think the Polish report is out on the 11th of Aug.
Crow 137 | 7,517
5 Aug 2017  #142
To put cross on myself, finally that we Slavs demand what is ours. Maybe this leadership of Poland, after all, have backbone. We shall see. I strictly monitor every Duda`s move since he showed penis to Serbia
Ironside 47 | 9,613
5 Aug 2017  #143
Living in what used to be Germany you should be careful about what doors you're opening up.

Why? Why he should be careful?

What is your obsession with making claims about me which are entirely untrue?

Stop lying. You oft imply that this or other poster will meet with violence. Then you back out from it if pressed with a pathetic quip. No-one is fooled Harry. Maybe you should stop using this tactics.

Dolno do you agree Germany should pay

I think they should pay.

By the way according to the German constitution I possibly qualify for a German cintziship. not they would ever want it.

By the way dolnoslask you are living in a beautiful country.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #144
By the way dolnoslask you are living in a beautiful country.

I sure am and may it never change or be changed by external influence.
Lyzko 20 | 6,305
5 Aug 2017  #145
Germany has paid so much in reparations, I'd have to commend Chancellor Merkel for being as unflappably fair as she has in publically admitting German guilt.

I believe, only one of her predecessors, the late, great Willy Brandt, went as far in openly declaring his conscience before the world, as both a German as well as a world leader.

His famous "Warschauer Kniefall" (Act of Kneeling in Deference Before a Monument to the Warsaw Uprising), public relations as it might well have been, did much to strengthen the belief, that at least WEST Germany was truly atoning for the sins of the fathers:-)
Tacitus 2 | 817
5 Aug 2017  #146
Answer no but the whole thing needs sorting out in a court of international law once and for all so yes it should go to trial.

Why, the whole issue couldn't be clearer from a legal point of view? There is nothing to clarify here, Germany has no legal obligation to pay any further reparations to Poland. If this goes to a court, the inevitable ruling against Poland would only be used by JK to claim that there is a conspiracy against Poland.

This old argument has been boiling for ages take a look at this interesting article from 2004.
wsws.org/en/articles/2004/11/pola-n06.html

There is another article that deals with the aftermath of the Sejm's declaration:

dw.com/en/for-berlin-the-question-of-polish-reparations-was-settled-long-ago/a-39972576

, Jochen Frowein, [...] along with a Polish historian, came to the conclusion that no such demand by Poland had any chance of being upheld in a court of law - and that remains the case today.

Within a historical context, the Polish demands of the German government are more than justified.

I am not disputing this. Germany has brought terrible suffering among Poland, but it is also worth mentioning that as an reaction Germany has tried to be as accomodating to Poland as possible during the last few decades. It was Germany who e.g. insisted that Poland could join the EU as soon as possible, with Poland receiving a lot of money via the structural funds over the years. Germany and Poland have reconciled and have signed treaties that solved the issue legally and politically. It is time to leave the past behind and not open this issue again that will only serve to poison German-Polish relations without any benefit to either side, since Poland will definitely get no further reparations from Germany and it will only add validty to the claims of the Germans expelled from Poland.

Personally I would not object e.g. if as an reaction Germany would be creating a new fund that e.g. allows young people from both countries to visit each other, to get a better understanding. But it is just ridiculous to expect that Germans could be guilt-tripped to pay e.g. 100bn€ for the crimes of (in my case) great-grandfathers when the issue has long been solved.
Lyzko 20 | 6,305
5 Aug 2017  #147
Brought to closure, most probably, but perhaps not "solved":-) Reparations in the end can never "compensate" such violent loss, can they? It's merely a gesture.

Although of Jewish descent, I really have to agree with Tacitus. Eternal breast-beating (ewige Selbstzerfleischung) helps nobody, including the person engaged in such useless self-flagelation! The Shoah has been long consigned to the annals of history, and even if I am not directly related to survivors first-hand, I agree with Elie Wiesel, may he rest in peace, that the children of killers are children, not killers.

After what he endured, to forgive the next generation is an incredibly inspiring act of maturity, not to mention, humanity!!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
5 Aug 2017  #148
It is time to leave the past behind and not open this issue again that will only serve to poison German-Polish

Trouble is it keeps poping up , it needs sorting once and for all, no one wants a poisoned reationship.

for the crimes of (in my case) great-grandfathers when the issue has long been solved.

You are not in anyway responsible for the actions of your great grandfathers, trouble is some of your politicians are using this history to their own marxist liberal ends, that is to wipe out and sense of national pride that you have.

To be honest we don't want Germany (who has greatest influence in the EU leadership) poking its nose into Polish politics.

Germans are a nice bunch of people but sadly you must see that things in Germany are going down hill due to bad government policy.
Lyzko 20 | 6,305
5 Aug 2017  #149
Unfortunately, it's not that simple either!

Germany, for that matter, no country, can just put their past "behind" them, as one can a ruined love affair, ill-fated job endeavor, or a lousy Thanksgiving dinner etc.:-))

A nation must live with as well as in spite of their past; their history, all things considered, has shaped their past AND their present, along with their future.

The Second World War was as much an outgrowth of German history as the US' war against her Native Americans was a result of Manifest Destiny, for example.

The Holocaust was sadly the ineluctable progression of Germany's "special path" (Sonderweg) which moved further and further from Enlightenment values, culminating in the rise of Hitler.

Again, who owes whom more and what, is an endless exercise in futility!
Tacitus 2 | 817
5 Aug 2017  #150
Trouble is it keeps poping up , it needs sorting once and for all, no one wants a poisoned reationship.

It only pops up because politicians like JK want to use it to distract their voters from the real issues at hand. Nothing Germany could do would prevent him and his ilk to use this in the future. Germany and Poland had a good relationship in the years before 2015, with Poland enjoying an increasing amount of influence in European matters. Unfortunately PiS has managed to curb this progress.

To be honest we don't want Germany (who has greatest influence in the EU leadership) poking its nose into Polish politics.

Germany has great interest in having a stable, democratic Poland as neighbour and trading partner. It will do all it can to assure this. What the EU currently does is not on behalf of Germany, but on behalf of the rest of the EU. If you are a member of the EU, having a functioning democracy with judicial independence is not merely a domestic issue but concerns the rest of the EU as well.

Germans are a nice bunch of people but sadly you must see that things in Germany are going down hill due to bad government policy.

Yes going downhill. One of the lowest unemployment rates in history, highest tax revenues et al.

I have noticed that after the refugee crisis a lot of foreign newspapers have painted a very bizarre picture of Germany, as if we were still in the middle of the refugee crisis. The situation is under control now and as things are standing, Germany will probably benefit long term from the new workers.


Home / History / For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.