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For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?


monia 3 | 212
18 Mar 2013  #1
For what the Germans owe us one trillion U.S. dollars????

It is very simple to explain .

At the end of the 30s Poland was compared with Spain, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Japan with its GDP .
As calculated by Zbigniew Landau and Jerzy Tomaszewski, the authors who published the "Second Republic. Economy - society - a place in the world", in 1929, annual production was 610 zł for a Pole, the Spaniard - 750 zł, and the Italian - 880 zł. After the war, Poland was separated by a huge gap from those countries .

To the Germans we owe the fact that we lost 38 percent of the national wealth. For comparison, France lost 1.5 percent. property, and the United Kingdom - 0.8 percent.

At the end of the 40's Polish GDP amounted to 8 billion zł (at the pre-war), while in 1939 reached 18 billion zł. Losses incurred during the war last up for today. When we regained independence in 1989, the economic differences between Poland and the countries were huge.

Polish national income was $ 1,400, the Spaniard - 8.7 thousand. dollars, the Italian - 14.5 thousand. dollars. Established after the war, the War Reparations Office of the Council of Ministers prepared a balance of material losses .

Railway lost 84 percent of wealth,
power - 65 percent.,
post and telecommunications - 62 percent.,
education - 60 percent.,
mining - 42 percent.
Of the 30 thousand. only 10 thousand plants survived., however, from that surviving , more than half of the buildings were destroyed.
More than 30 percent of forrests were destroyed.

The Germans took more than 200 million tons of coal, one million tons of potassium, 500 thousand. tons of iron ore, 100 thousand. tons of phosphate rock.

The total economic losses amounted to 259 billion zlotys pre-war, prewar or 49 billion dollars.

Taking into account the fact that the then gold and the dollar were based on the gold standard, when converted at today's exchange rate, Germany is blamed for the destruction of the Polish economy in around of 590 billion dollars

Then there are the losses incurred by individual citizens. In 1990 prof. Alfons Klafkowski, the late international law expert, has calculated that in this respect the victims and their heirs (war losses were suffered by more than 13 million people) would be 285 billion dollars in compensation.

MOST IMPORTANTLY :

tthere are incalculable losses of life and FINALLY as a result from that there was the collapse of civilization of Poland which was attached to the Soviet bloc, which is also a result of the war caused by the Germans.

We lost
39 percent. physicians,
33 percent. teachers in vocational schools, secondary and primary,
30 percent. scientists and university professors,
28 percent. priests,
26 percent. lawyers.
According to various surveys, Germany should have to pay from $ 100 billion to 300 billion dollars in only compensation for lost material assets .

Germany should have to pay at least one trillion dollars of total compensation material and immaterial for all losses of war to Poland,.
Lenka 2 | 1,115
18 Mar 2013  #2
Could you provide some link?
OP monia 3 | 212
18 Mar 2013  #3
Here you are

Poles would have given us a bill for destroyed cities , ruined factories, stolen works of art and civilization backwardness as a consequence of war , we would be indebted forever " - warned Günter Grass , the German writer and Nobel Prize laureate . - If you Erika Steinbach and her ilk will demand any compensation for lost property to the east , we can bill them , you will not be able to repay several generations of Germans - said prof . Bartoszewski , former Minister of Foreign Affairs . counted as Poland, Germany would have to pay if we demanded war reparations . Including compensation would amount to at least billions.

Are you a Pole of German descent , btw? Are you shocked by that ? What a pity that in schools they don`t teach us the real historical facts only what is politically correct . In this case the myth created by Germans about Poles stealing German cars sounds like a trick of a devil to fool the world about reality : Germans are the world`s biggest thieves .
Lenka 2 | 1,115
18 Mar 2013  #4
Are you a Pole of German descent , btw?

No that it matters but I will answer:
I leave in Silesia but my family came here after war.

Germans are the world`s biggest thieves .

I won't edit it because I want to say this:
No blanket statements.
OP monia 3 | 212
18 Mar 2013  #5
For those who can read in Polish -

biurose.sejm.gov.pl/teksty_pdf_04/e-302.pdf

another source in a short version :

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straty_materialne_Polski_w_czasie_II_wojny_%C5%9Bwiatowej

google translation of the above link contents :

Loss of national wealth - 38% of the pre-1939 (the damage done in the industrial centers and urban centers).
Material damage of immovable property - residential buildings (162 190), rural farms (353 876), factories and factory complexes (14, 000), shops, private and public (199 751), workshops (84 436), 968 223 households [3 ].
The destruction of urban centers and cities -

Warsaw War Losses-
85% of a city of Warsaw ,
90% of Warsaw industry,
72% of Warsaw housing,
90% of Warsaw national treasures and monuments,
700 000 deaths of inhabitants of Warsaw just one city (representing a total loss of the war in the people of Great Britain and the United States counted together ).

The total destruction and theft of the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943, 95% of the losses. ,
The city of Jasło destructed in totall(96%),
and the destruction of the port of Gdynia.

Plunder of cultural property - a total of 43%.
Destroyed 25 museums,
35 theaters,
665 cinemas,

Losses due to the irreversible destruction of museum collections, archives and library - impossible to accurately estimate the losses alone amounted
library about 66%.

Irreversibly destroyed 22 million books total,
the German Nazis in occupied Poland made the robbery about 516 000 [4] of individual works of art, worth an estimated $ 11.14 billion (at the rate of 2001)

[5]. As a result of the post-war restitution managed to recover only a small percentage of lost historical collections, works of art and exhibits. [6]

Losses in the Polish school - destroyed 17 universities, 271 schools, 4,880 primary schools, and 768 other schools.

In addition, the destruction of research institutes, scientific societies, and foundations of different types.

Loss of health care (hospital property, infrastructure, buildings) - 55% of the state before 1939.

352 hospitals were destroyed,
29 tuberculosis sanatoriums,
24 medicinal plants wafer,
47 social insurance company facilities,
778 health centers and clinics,
1,450 surgeries and dental [3].

The losses in the industry (both intentional destruction and looting of machinery and equipment) -
64.5% of the chemical industry,
printing 64.3%,
59.7% electrical,
clothing 55.4%,
53.1% food,
48% metal.

The losses in forestry as a result of over-exploitation of the economy - cut 75 million cubic meters of merchantable timber, which corresponds to 400 000 hectares of forest.

Losses in agriculture and livestock - 1908 thousand. horses, 3,905 thousand. cattle, 4,988 thousand. pigs, 755 thousand. sheep [3].

The destruction of more than 50% of the railway infrastructure, road, air and maritime transport, telecommunications infrastructure
(destroyed 13 stations broadcasting
Radiotelegraphy 7 stations, seized radio 867 000 [3]).

Stolen or destroyed 2,465 locomotives,

83 636 wagons,

25 seagoing vessels and 39 vessels off the port.

Destroyed 5948 km railway track,
47 767 meters of railway bridges and viaducts,
14 900 km of hard-surface roads,
15 500 meters of road bridges [3]

No blanket statements.

Can`t you read the contents of those links I gave you ?

These are expertises done by many committee established after the war . There was a Compensation Office for War Reparations established . Their works were carried out by many years . There are also recent expertises prepared for the government after 1989 and after 2000 too.

That`s just an example of losses in the cities which were destroyed the most . In reality there was no Polish city which did not suffer war damges . Maybe only small or remote villages were left undestroyed .

one German bombing raid over Warsaw . This is a smoke from burning buildings not clouds :



And prewar Warsaw



City that came back from the dead



Calling Germans (whole nation- really?) or any other nation biggest thieves (or other negative thing) won't be something I will accept.

What do Germans say about Poles - the whole nation I also will not accept , my dear .

In colour pictures :



2.13 the Warsaw castle square
4.01 Nowy Świat street
legend 3 | 664
19 Mar 2013  #6
I thought it was maybe $500 billion or less.
This large number is surprising. I dont think anyone will be giving that money, though.
Meathead 5 | 470
19 Mar 2013  #7
I am no fan of Germany but...Poland was offered the Marshall Plan after the war. Poland refused because a sizable portion of the population preferred Communism. As for getting reparations from Germany, good luck. Quit obsessing about the Past and get on with building a country.
Palivec - | 380
19 Mar 2013  #8
Why doesn't this calculation assess the value of the former German territories that became Polish after WW2?

114.267 km² of land
the entire property of 9,6 mio Germans
infrastructure
cultural assets
natural ressources

I wonder for instance if Poland really wants to estimate the property of 9 mio people (houses, appartments, garden, furnishings, clothes etc.) in todays prices... this could get ugly.
Richfilth 6 | 415
19 Mar 2013  #9
Quit obsessing about the Past and get on with building a country.

This has been my mantra for the past decade of living in Poland. Not a single person posting on this forum was alive during WW2; they've had their entire lives to work, save and build. Blaming someone else's dead grandparents for your current lack of Mercedes is infantile beyond belief.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
19 Mar 2013  #10
For what the Germans owe us one trillion U.S. dollars????

Germans owe us nothing. You keep writing emotional stuff but emotions count for nothing in such cases. All the issues related to compensations/ownership could have been quite easily solved +20 years ago, it wasn't and now we have a big problem but it's only our fault, not yours or mine but the fault of our country caused by feckin idiots running it. If Poles keep voting for feckin idiots, this country will not exist in 20-30 years and it's not fault of Germans, Jews, Russians or anyone else except ourselves.
OP monia 3 | 212
19 Mar 2013  #11
I am no fan of Germany but...Poland was offered the Marshall Plan after the war.

I wish you had to rebuiilt your country if it was ruined by the war and soviets afterwards I would tell you advices and encourage you to work harder ,after seeing lousy effects . Wake up and get some life .

Meathead - where did you learn your history from ? What kind of freedom did people have in 1945 in choosing the future of our economy ? If Churchil was a Stalin`s puppet , what option do you think Polish people had after the war ? Poland`s fate was in hands of 3 powers who decided about Poland`s future in Jalta . They could have invited for the talks Polish government on exile , but they didn`t have any intention to do it . Instead of this Soviets installed PKWN and temporary communist government .

"In a memorandum submitted before the conference to the governments of the United Kingdom and the United States, the Polish government in exile has expressed the belief that they will not participate in any decisions concerning Polish state without consultation and consent of the Polish government. At the Conference of the Three there were prepared decisions and taken into action without the participation of not only the Polish government and authority, but without iss knowledge (...) The Polish Government stated that the decisions of the Conference of the Polish Three can not be recognized by the Polish government and may not apply to Polish people . "

Why are you misleading other posters by stating that Poland refused Marschall`s Plan . Who did that , maybe you should have said that Soviets did that by the hands of communists taken in from USRR,

I wonder for instance if Poland really wants to estimate the property of 9 mio people (houses, appartments, garden, furnishings, clothes etc.) in todays prices... this could get ugly.

Go and complain to Russians and Germans , they ruined or and robbed it in the war , lookeg. at Wrocław what was left from the city , wiseguy !

Blaming someone else's dead grandparents for your current lack of Mercedes is infantile beyond belief.

Poland has got only few years of normal ecomomy . Before that time : there was war , devastation , robbery by Soviets and Germans , genocide , and you are saying we can forget it . If you come from UK , I can only tell stay where you are but not give us any advices , we know what to do . Poland has completed by itself the rebuilding of our country in just 10 years without billions of $ from USA like Germans did it . And then if Poland was left by itself we would encompass your country very fast . Instead of that the transfer ruble was introduced by Soviets ( 1 ruble =1US $_ and that was a grave for Poland . It was in the early 50 -ties .
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
19 Mar 2013  #12
Poland was offered the Marshall Plan after the war. Poland refused because a sizable portion of the population preferred Communism.

That's fascinating. Please comment more on that.
OP monia 3 | 212
19 Mar 2013  #13
Germans owe us nothing.

You know I don`t want their money , that thread was an answer to the Jewish claims backed up by USA congressmen to pay them money . If they keep doing that we will write an invoice for 1 trillion of US $ to the Germans and others who participated by selling off our country without our concent and then we will pay Jews for some rubbles or ruined enterprises .

I only wish that Germans would return stolen arts and libraries with priceless works carefully collected by our fathers for centuries . I would also not reject the gold robbed from the Polish Central Bank for which the whole highway system could be constructed by that stolen asset without a penny from EU .
Harry
19 Mar 2013  #14
There could be some food help , but there was nothing .

Now that is very simply a bare-faced lie.

What have you, your fathers and mothers been doing for our people while we were under the Soviet regime ?

And what were you doing, dear lady?

For what the Germans owe us one trillion U.S. dollars????

They don't. Your government agreed that they don't. Now do move on.
Monitor 14 | 1,821
19 Mar 2013  #15
Economic ties with Germany are not the reason of mentioned countries failure. Look at Netherlands - the most connected to Germany economy and doing well.

"...and do as much as possible on their own." - Asian Tigers economic growth teaches that the best way for economic success is copying western technologies, ignoring patents, protecting own market and supporting high value added and technologically advanced export (and investing in education of course)

"Instead of planning on building billion buck high tech nuclear reactors they should be building low tech bio digesters and converting coal into methanol. These things are doable" - can you link any paper comparing costs of both solutions?

"Take a page out of Switzerland's book, how to maintain independence when surrounded by countries many times larger and often times hostile." - this page says: "Become small, politically not important country with little natural resources, armed population and warn destruction of your own factories in case of being attacked (to say enemy that after attack we will be completely worthless for you).

"Why doesn't this calculation assess the value of the former German territories that became Polish after WW2?" - maybe because it's equaled by losses of greater territories of Poland on the east?

"Blaming someone else's dead grandparents for your current lack of Mercedes is infantile beyond belief." - but Poland is actually independent only since 90', before we couldn't demand compensation the way Jews did. Somebody wrote before that during soviet times majority of poles didn't want Marshal plan. You say what? It was not democracy that people would have anything to say. That was decision of communist government - puppets controlled by Russians.

"More than 30 percent of forrests were destroyed. " - wow, even forests.
OP monia 3 | 212
19 Mar 2013  #16
And what were you doing, dear lady?

My granparents and my mum suffered from that . They lost an appartment house on Zlota street in the heart of Warsaw . How can you ask that . I was a victim of that system through my grandparents loses. From 1939 there was a wehrmacht general living in our building with some minor subordinates having his appartment and the office there . My grandparents and my mother were cramped into one room and than the building was burned down with flamethrowers carried by German special comando with orders to burn down Warsaw to the ground.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbrodnie_niemieckie_w_powstaniu_warszawskim
sppw1944.org/powstanie/wola_rzez.html

Now that is very simply a bare-faced lie.

Where were you and other people ?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
19 Mar 2013  #17
The whole thing is not about WW2, nazis and so on but about post-WW2 nationalization...
OP monia 3 | 212
19 Mar 2013  #18
And yet a modern Jew isn't? Which is it?

I don`t go out shouting - give it back , give it back , givvvvvvvvvve it back to me .
Polson 5 | 1,771
19 Mar 2013  #19
There should be organised help from governments of those countries who sufferd almost nothing like France or UK .

Every countries suffered major losses during WW2. Every nations had a whole country to rebuild. Of course, Poland suffered a lot, cities like Warsaw almost completely disappeared from the map. That doesn't mean other countries were all fine.

What do you really expect today from Germany/Europe?
TheOther 5 | 3,606
19 Mar 2013  #20
Germany should have to pay at least one trillion dollars of total compensation material and immaterial for all losses of war to Poland

I demand that Poland pays at least one trillion dollars to Russia, Austria and Germany for all the assets that ended up in its hands after WW1... ;)
jon357 63 | 14,149
19 Mar 2013  #21
The whole issue was resolved when the two countries restored relations - many years ago.
OP monia 3 | 212
19 Mar 2013  #22
I demand that Poland pays at least one trillion dollars to Russia, Austria and Germany for all the assets that ended up in its hands after WW1... ;)

Fools are everywhere . If we counted for our exploitation of 123 years the invoice would be several trillions . Go on , make me laugh .
TheOther 5 | 3,606
19 Mar 2013  #23
If we counted for our exploitation of 123 years the invoice would be several trillions

Tell me more about the poor Polish slaves who had to work in the sugar cane and cotton fields of their Prussian and Russian masters.
Palivec - | 380
19 Mar 2013  #24
Are you German TheOther?If so we need to talk about compensation for all the crops and livestock German army confiscated from my great grandfather

Your compensation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany
grubas 12 | 1,392
19 Mar 2013  #25
Your compensation:

No mister this was compensation for OUR eastern territory and we received it from Soviets.Beside we are still some 80000 sq km "in red".
Palivec - | 380
19 Mar 2013  #26
The eastern territories weren't annexed by Germany but Russia. It's silly to argue that a third party (Germany) should compensate the victim (Poland) of someones crime (Russia).
grubas 12 | 1,392
19 Mar 2013  #27
It's silly to argue that a third party (Germany) should compensate the victim (Poland) of someones crime (Russia).

In 1945 Germany had as much to say as a Jew during German occupation of Poland.And be thankful to Soviets that they managed to finish you before Americans got THE BOMB.
Ironside 47 | 9,550
19 Mar 2013  #28
If Poles keep voting for feckin idiots, this country will not exist in 20-30 years and it's not fault of Germans, Jews, Russians or anyone else except ourselves.

Of course it is fault of Germans and Russians because they murdered and killed our elite and during soviet occupation cultivated new soviet elite.

Judeo - Commies it is much better characterisation . Most of them came from USSR. They brought judges, policemen ,clerks , yjose people changed names form Jewish to Polish and later it was hard to find out who is who . But thanks to the internet it is easier to find out now who they are .

Some however majority of them were and are of local extraction, mainly from of a gutter.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
20 Mar 2013  #29
Hi Monia,

Do these calculations on quantum include a percentage increase for loss of opportunity arising from these assets being stolen/destroyed, as well as interest?

I only wish that Germans would return stolen arts and libraries with priceless works carefully collected by our fathers for centuries .

This is very important I think, but the problem now is that most of these items will probably now be in the hands of private collectors, who are probably bona fide purchasers for value.

Not a single person posting on this forum was alive during WW2; they've had their entire lives to work, save and build. Blaming someone else's dead grandparents for your current lack of Mercedes is infantile beyond belief.

Hi Rich - If you think the argument for compensation in these circumstances is based on a failure to accrue material wealth purely by virtue of a poor work ethic, then you are misconceived.
Meathead 5 | 470
20 Mar 2013  #30
That's fascinating. Please comment more on that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Plan

This poor girl was executed by Poles not Russians which illustrates conflict of Polands AK and Polish Communists. After WWII Poland was not of one mind, if they were they could have resisted Russian occupation and accepted the Marshall Plan.

"I am no fan of Germany but...Poland was offered the Marshall Plan after the war. Poland refused because a sizable portion of the population preferred Communism. As for getting reparations from Germany, good luck. Poland will just end up like Spain, Italy, Greece, Ireland and now Cyprus. If Poland was smart they'd divorce their economy from Germany and do as much as possible on their own. Quit obsessing about the Past and get on with building a country."

The Netherlands isn't Poland. Two completely different countries. Poland historically hasn't done well in relations with Germany (Poland always gets the short end of the stick). Poland needs to import less and build up it's domestic industry. CIA factbook shows Poland imports Natural gas of 11.79 billion cu m (2011 est.). This can be mitigated by bio digesters, turning waste into methane. Poland can reduce it's gasoline imports by converting coal into methanol (Poland has plenty of coal but little oil). These two processes are low tech and wouldn't require massive amounts of capital and technology as a nuclear power plant. Instead of using Chinese construction crews rebuilding your roads, with 12% -13% unemployment draft the unemployed in Army reserve engineering units and rebuild your own roads. Poland needs to look after itself and quit looking to Germany and Russia for your future, they've ransacked your country enough. And Switzerland is not a politically important country, correct but they have their independence and probably the highest standard of living in Europe. Switzerland has kept it's eye on the ball throughout history and looked after itself. Poland needs to do the same.


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