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For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?


gregy741 4 | 1,204
4 Aug 2017  #91
because as pointed out they are legally non-existing.

but you cant be sure,nobody tried yet..maybe is doable millions of jews receive compensations,even those who were never subject to any repression or harm.

and what was their legal basis?
jon357 63 | 14,134
4 Aug 2017  #92
but you cant be sure,nobody tried yet..maybe is doable

No, it is not 'doable'.
Tacitus 2 | 852
4 Aug 2017  #93
and what was their legal basis

Several treaties in which Germany agreed to pay reparations to them.

Poland has in 1954 signed a treaty in which it waved off its' claims to further reparations, regarding Germany as a whole (not only the GDR, because the GDR was for them the legitimate German government).

Poland decided to stick to this decision during the negotiations for the treaty of Warsaw (1970) and later during negotiations for German reunifications. Germany in return agreed to pay bns voluntarily to the victims and gave Poland cheap loans which Poland craved.

In short, there is no legal basis for any further claims on Polish sides.
Towarzysz
4 Aug 2017  #94
@johnny reb

Well, let's look at this from an Irish point of view for a second.

Poland in some ways has a similar history to Ireland, although they had two terrible neighbours for centuries and we had/have one depending on what we mean by terrible.

The British State exterminated upto 40% of the Irish population in the 1640's. In the 1840's they exterminated up to 30% of the population and many more were forced abroad. The language almost died as a result of 750 years of British rule(with 350 years of consistent and complete control of the country).

Now, we could all recriminate. The Polish language is still the natural language of the Polish people. You have not lost everything.

Poland now has full independence. The Brits divided Ireland in 1920/21 officially based on a minority's adherence to British rule but really based on strategic, imperial, military and economic interests(the North of the country was wealthier back then). The North of Ireland is still under devolved British rule.

Long story short, we know your pain.

The Irish State in 1923, just after a brital war of Independence and an even more brutal civil war, was in disarray and for many decades we were a third world country. Building a country is not easy. It takes hardship and comes at a great cost. We suffered for decades due to our protectionist economics and neutrality/foreign policy too. Emigration has always been the norm for young people-again similar to Poles.

Now, does anyone think for a second the Brits will ever even apologise or acknowledge their historical wrongdoing never mind stump up the reparations we could argue for?

Germany's government battered Greece especially but also Ireland and Portugal into the ground over private banking debts.

Good luck with getting anything off them in the first place.

The only realistic thing I read on this thread was maybe demanding artefacts and artistic pieces as well as antiques back. If Poland and other European countries get into this diplomatic argument though it won't be long before European States are demanding territories back as well. Germnay will want Prussia back, Poland will want Lwow back etc.

Kaczynski is going down a dangerous road here.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
4 Aug 2017  #95
Germnay will want Prussia back,

how do you see it possible?since there are no Germans there anymore?territorial exchanges are not possible anymore unless you are willing to commit ethnic cleansing on massive scale.same goes for Lwow.simple human rights would prevent such exchanges,not to mention that would actually be good for Poland,in terms of area gain

but war reparation is still doable for Poland.i heard that Britain might be paying reparations for slave trade ect.
we need few clever lawyers,invent some more gas chambers fairy tales stories and we can try.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
4 Aug 2017  #96
The East Germans agreed to give the former German territories in the east to Poland. In exchange

the other -one has nothing to do with the other. lol!
That is some confabulations not facts or reality. Soviets claimed about those former German territories:
a. ancient Polish lands, the Piast dynasty, thanks to our great Soviet ally returned to the motherland.
b. those are compensation for the Polish lands Poland lost to the Soviets in the east.
c. those are compensation for the unjust and a barbaric war where Germany was an Aggressor and a criminal.
d. those are 'payment' for all the German atrocities committed on Poles.
They used that whenever they suit them. Cannot be a payment for anything can it?
In reality you would have to ask Stalin what was the reason those lands went to Poland.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
4 Aug 2017  #97
So JK's argument is completely ridiculous.

Not if he is talking about private property that wasn't destroyed due to military operation but due to the actions of the occupied power. Warsaw wasn't destroyed completely due to a military operation not even due to the Warsaw uprising but due to the systematic destruction carried out by the Germans on Hitler's order.

That is not ridiculous MR know it all.

far more valuable (in terms of ressources and industry) than the part lost in the East.

That BS. Most of that industry if not destroyed during military oppression was either destroyed or stolen by the Soviets. Cities and towns in la arge part had to be rebuild. Whereas cities in the east remained relativity unscratched.
Tacitus 2 | 852
4 Aug 2017  #98
In reality you would have to ask Stalin what was the reason those lands went to Poland.

Simple, he wanted to keep Poland dependent on the SU, because Poland would need the SU to defend them against German attempts to revise the border.

That BS. Most of that industry if not destroyed during military oppression was either destroyed or stolen by the Soviets.

The areas especially in Silesia had still vastly more economic potential than the areas in the East. That the areas in now Western Poland were far more valuable both in terms of ressources and industrial capabilities (far from everything was destroyed) than those lost in the East is not up to any debate, it is a fact.

Warsaw wasn't destroyed completely due to a military operation not even due to the Warsaw uprising but due to the systematic destruction carried out by the Germans on Hitler's order.

All of that is covered in the existing treaties. There were in total 5 times when the issue of reparations was adressed for Poland: 1. Potsdam Agreement 2. The treaty with the GDR 3. Warsaw treaty 4. 4+2 treaty 1990 and 5. the border treaty with Germany in 1991.

The point is that Poland has time and time again refirmed its' position to not seek further reparations against Germany, and signed treaties confirming this. There is hardly any modern conflict in which the reparation issue has been dealt with as conclusively as between Poland and Germany.

Not if he is talking about private property that wasn't destroyed due to military operation but due to the actions of the occupied power.

It doesn't matter, those claims would still have to be made by the Polish state, who has signed off any claims for future reparations.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
4 Aug 2017  #99
The areas especially in Silesia had still vastly more economic potential than the areas in the East.

Right, you mean coal. In the east there was oil and sulphur and that only from the top of my head. Those industrials capabilities meant squat because had been used by the soviets to build tanks and other weaponry. Hardly benefited the general populace.

All of that is covered in the existing treaties.

Hmm ..really? It means that Poland overpaid for those ex-German territories big time.
TheOther 5 | 3,801
4 Aug 2017  #100
In reality you would have to ask Stalin what was the reason those lands went to Poland.

One of the reasons why it really makes no sense that KaczyƄski brings it up again. He's trying to stir sh*it as usual in my opinion.

There were in total 5 times when the issue of reparations was adressed for Poland

Good point.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #101
If Poland claims to be "suing" Germany over reparations, much less, expecting to receive serious compensation from a judge willing to waste their time with such malarky. all I can say to that, chortling as I type this, is HAH!!! Lotsa luck out there, kidsLOL
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #102
I can say to that, chortling as I type this, is HAH!!! Lotsa luck out there, kidsLOL

And do you chortle over the 89 billion paid to the Jewish people in reparations , pal, or more likely you chortle over anything bad that happens to Poland , pal.

Are you also saying that the holocaust was a "malarkey" pal.

Show some respect for the millions of Poles who were murdered by Germans , pal
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #103
Scarcely, dolno!

Reparations however cut many ways, need I remind you. Would it be sooooo out of place conversely for Germany to claim POLAND owes them one trillion U.S. dollars?

While I do realize Germany was more or less the principle "aggressor" in WWII, the Federal Republic immediately following the framing of her Basic Law, did contend that so-called "German lands" had been purloined by the enemy, namely Russia, renamed and "relinguified" to expunge most traces of German.

Where oh where does it end??
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #104
German lands" had been purloined by the enemy, namely Russia,

But that is a Germany Russia Issue, Don't forget it was Germany who broke the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, Russia might also stake a claim, but non of that has anything to do with Poland.

Where oh where does it end??

I doesn't thats the point recently Germany apears to be distancing is=tself from the truth of what happend , Using the term Polish death camps, refusal to apologise, poking its nose into Polish affairs.

The memory of the six million Jews slaughtered by Germany will never end.
The Memory of millions of Poles (Yes the Jews in Poland were also Polish citizens, my people) will never end.

I will never forget the faces of those four souls who came to my school to share what they had experienced at the hand of the Germans.

Me I don;t care about the money, The truth and facts need to be out there .
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #105
Factually correct, dolno. Ribbentrop, that is, Hitler, opted out of the Pact, meanwhile later invading Russia, an act of foolhardy braggadocio of the most laughable sort which essentially sealed Hitler's and Germany's fate in Stalingrad.

Arrogance be thy downfall, oh Fearless Fuehrer!
lol
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #106
Germany's fate in Stalingrad.

Just think the Germans systematicaly wiped out the Polish inteligencia, they slaughtered the Polish Jews both of which were huge wealth earners, economic contributors to Poland, If it was not for Germany Poland would be wealthier and have a much larger population.

The Article below begins to explain the damage caused to Poland by Germany

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4758992/No-wonder-Poland-s-demanding-billions-Germany.html
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #107
I think we can all generally agree on that. Nothing new here. Even Chancellor and one-time Mayor of West Berlin, Willy Brandt, remarked during his period in office that it was the destruction of German Jewry in particular which stymied West Germany's growth after the War and led to a decimated percentage of German artists, thinkers, scientists, writers, and musicians...a generation lost to the world.
TheOther 5 | 3,801
4 Aug 2017  #108
But that is a Germany Russia Issue

You really want Germany and Russia to sit down together and decide what to do about Poland?

The Article below

I understand what you're trying to say, but the Daily Fail is really the last source you would want to quote in this case. They are well known for publishing anti-German and Nazi articles on a daily basis.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #109
Amen!

Dolno, I rather think too your premise is a little bit flimsy at best:-) No offense, but you seem to have gone off half cocked.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #110
They are well known for publishing anti-German and Nazi articles on a daily basis.

Anti German and Nazi? do you see the ambiguity of your comment.

By anti German do you mean they don't like the way Merkel foists Migrants on nations, or the way she manipulates EU strategy, or how the greek economy was ruined.

What should I read? the Guardian that is full of left wing libtard marxist commie clap trap.

From my knowledge of WWII the article was spot on.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #111
Think you're arguing emotionally, dolno. While it is admittedly a heated subject, somehow, I don't think that's what TheOther meant to say:-)

We all tend to bandy words here a trifle, so let's try to avoid that when we can. I'm also guilty of such from time to time.

Merkel's albeit failed migrant policies have little to do per se with German-Polish-Russian War reparations!
Tacitus 2 | 852
4 Aug 2017  #112
@dolnoslask

I doesn't thats the point recently Germany apears to be distancing is=tself from the truth of what happend

None of what you wrote here has any basis in reality. German are politicians regulary very open about what happened and are not shy from stating it on public occasions. Which makes JK's statement that German politicians have not apologized enough all the more baffling.

Secondly, the term "Polish death camps" is inherently misleading and hardly used in the English media, let alone in German (I have never read the German translation "Polnische Konzentrationslager" before).

Thirdly, Germany has not meddled into Polish affairs. The EU is currently investigating because the Polish government might have violated EU treaties, which makes it an European affair by default. If a country joins an organization, it has to adhere to its' rules or it will get into trouble. Poland agreed to uphold certain democratic and judicial standards, breaking them will have consequences.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #113
Thank you, Tacitus and TheOther:-) Finally, some sober clarity amid the muddle.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #114
None of what you wrote here has any basis in reality. German are politicians regulary very open

Well given you are German and a Merkel groupie I am not surprised at your post,.

Tacticu wrote "Well, it is quite obvious that Merkel is a very skilled diplomate if nothing else, and personally speaking, I'll likely vote for her again this year."
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
4 Aug 2017  #115
Secondly, the term "Polish death camps" is inherently misleading and hardly used in the English media, let alone in German

Well ZDF are saying it.

i24news.tv/en/news/international/europe/133308-161222-court-faults-german-tv-for-calling-nazi-camps-polish
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
4 Aug 2017  #116
???! What's with the labeling, man? Come on, get off it and try to argue cogently as well as accurately, if possible. Name calling's not what we're about....except if the name fits, of courseLOL

@Dolno,
And the German media's gospel truth????
dolnoslask 5 | 2,455
5 Aug 2017  #117
Name calling's

Not name calling the comment was tongue in cheek expression.

And the German media's gospel truth????

From what I see it is very much controlled by the state,

globalresearch.ca/western-media-in-big-trouble-germany-to-censor-press-social-media-and-internet-ahead-of-elections/5577593

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3429621/German-journalist-claims-government-tells-media-t-report-following-outcry-Cologne-sex-attack-news-blackout.html
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
5 Aug 2017  #118
Calling someone a "Merkel groupie" or "it's because you're German" etc. I'd consider name calling, hardly just tongue and cheek.
Tacitus 2 | 852
5 Aug 2017  #119
Well given you are German and a Merkel groupie I am not surprised at your post,.

I am simply stating the facts here. Merkel has in the past hold several speeches in which she apologized for German atrocities and German responsibility for WWII. Here is a longer speech of her in Gdansk from 2009 (unfortuntaly only in German, but there are probably English translations as well). You could find other examples if you have the time. How anyone can claim that German politicians have not apologized enough is beyond me.

youtube.com/watch?v=aRBRN5maifU

@dolnoslask

Well ZDF are saying it

The term was apparantly used in a promotion, not in the documentation itself. There is apparantly nothing to criticize the documentation for.

It is very strange that Poland is so defensive on this issue against a media outlet that shows many documentations about the crimes comitted by Germans and which is situated in a country where Holocaust denial is a criminal offence. There is simply no need to distinguish in Germany about this. Germans know more about this part of their history than any other. Visiting a KZ in school is basically mandatory. If nothing else it is just bizarre to feel the need to sue for this.

From what I see it is very much controlled by the state,

No it is not. ZDF is owned by the state, but independent in its' programe.

There are simply stricter laws regarding hate speech in Germany, because of our memories of the Weimar Republic where hatred could be incited unopposed.


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