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For what the Germans owe Poland one trillion U.S. dollars?


Ironside 48 | 9,796
25 Aug 2017  #211
including a lot of arts and treasure like the Berlinka treasure it has legally speaking no right

Well, law is either ambiguous as to it or not very clear on the issue. Depend who is a paymasters of a lawyer. In other words the law is not clear black and white on it!

On other hand if we talk morals, fairness and all that - Germany has not ground to ask for it. Amount of art destroyed and stolen by the German side is such that Berlinka doesn't even came close to amend for that. There is still plenty of loot from Poland in private German hands including my great grandma gold watch. Somehow the 'German side' cannot deal with it at all and let it go in regard to Berlinka.

but Poland received more than other countries

That is blandly untruth. Didn't you say yourself how much the Soviet union extracted from Germany on the top of acquiring some German territories?

you can't reasonably expect the great-grandchildren to pay additional money for the crimes of their great-grandfathers

I can reasonably expect a reasonable and fair compensation to be paid. Not some excuses and taken money.
As great-grandchildren paying for the crimes of their ancestors - pry tell when Germany has paid to France the last rate of the compensation for the war? (even IWW if I'm not mistaken) was it last year or was it 'only' a couple of years ago? Is that reasonable and if it is reasonable in case of France why it isn't reasonable in the case of Poland.?

I think that general awareness in Germany as to the severity of the German occupation of Poland and amount of ruins, dead and misery it had left behind is grossly underestimated. I find it mildly repulsive. It seems to me there is a purposeful policy in Germany aimed at playing it down or/and whitewash it when it comes to Poland.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
25 Aug 2017  #212
While guilt itself might have no "statute of limitations", a nation's economy certainly has. More than a tad insultingly idealistic to expect the great-great-great grand kids to pay forever for the sins of their great-great-great-grandparents, isn't it? The latter's meant as a rhetorical question, incidentallyLOL
Ironside 48 | 9,796
25 Aug 2017  #213
More than a tad insultingly idealistic to expect the great-great-great grand kids to pay forever for the sins of their great-great-great-grandparents, isn't it?

So you are against affirmative action?
Bobko 9 | 149
25 Aug 2017  #214
so you are against affirmative action?

Lol, what a twist!
Tacitus 2 | 852
25 Aug 2017  #215
@Ironside

That is blandly untruth. Didn't you say yourself how much the Soviet union extracted from Germany on the top of acquiring some German territories?

Poland received one quarter of Germany's pre-war territory as compensation. That alone is worth more than any other country received as reparation.

I can reasonably expect a reasonable and fair compensation to be paid.

Which has already happened as stated before, Poland received German territory and later money from the FRG.

I find it mildly repulsive. It seems to me there is a purposeful policy in Germany aimed at playing it down or/and whitewash it when it comes to Poland.

If you knew something about modern day Germany, you would never make such a conclusion. We are constantly reminded of German crimes and documentations e.g. about the uprising in Warsaw are shown in regular intervalls. Nobody denies are whitewashes anything, and as stated some time before, leading politicians are constantly reflecting about those crimes in public speeches.

Poland on the other hand has a dangerous tendency of overlooking its' antisemtic past, but this is another issue not related to the topic at hand.
G (undercover)
25 Aug 2017  #216
Poland received one quarter of Germany's pre-war territory as compensation.

Neither it was Germany that was "giving" nor Poland was asking for it. It was a decision of the "big 4".

Nobody denies are whitewashes anything, and as stated some time before, leading politicians are constantly reflecting about those crimes in public speeches.

That's why you are destroying Europe for the 3rd time ? This time with muslim savages as the foot soldiers ?
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
25 Aug 2017  #217
@Ironside, what does "affirmative action" have to do with it? Incidentally, that wasn't Tacitus' quote, but mine:-)
Bobko 9 | 149
25 Aug 2017  #218
what does "affirmative action" have to do with it?

He's pulling out a classic page from the Soviet propaganda playbook called "Whataboutism".

In this case, Ironside means that if one holds to be true the maxime that present day people cannot be held responsible for the crimes of their great-grandfathers, then the policy of affirmative action admissions to United States colleges is also an invalid one. By this logic present-day white children should not be denied placement to educational institutions in favor of lower-achieving minorities, just because their granddads' benefited from slavery more than 150 years ago.

It was a complete shot in the dark for Ironside, however. Not sure what his point was, bringing this up in this debate about German reparations to Poland. I guess he just can't pass on an opportunity to take a potshot at a "snowflake" liberal.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
25 Aug 2017  #219
Yes, that's right, he is!

@Ironside, quit pulling out pages, would you, especially if the book doesn't belong to youLOL
Bobko 9 | 149
25 Aug 2017  #220
especially if the book doesn't belong to you

Russians wrote the book on subject-changing.

US propaganda aimed at Soviet citizens: While your country sends rockets into space, it is unable to provide you with basic living necessities!

Soviet reply: Freedom to Angela Davis!
Crow 138 | 7,646
25 Aug 2017  #221
Poland on the other hand has a dangerous tendency of overlooking its' antisemtic past, but this is another issue not related to the topic at hand.

Your ignorance is palpable. I am all for better relations with Jews. That`s my moto on this forum. But, to be able to reconcile, we all must face the truth. Did Jews, side by side with Arabs and western Europeans took part in hunt on Slavs (Sarmatians) during era of slavery on European soil? Yes, they took part? Did Jews ever apologized for that to Poles, to all Slavs? No, they didn`t? Sure, it must be mentioned, modern Israel and Jews in general accepted fact of Slavic antiquity, seeing Slavs as natives of Europe and that way distanced themselves from Anglo-Franco-Germanic falsification of Slavic history. It was major Jewish step towards improving relations with Slavs. See, Jewish apology for crimes on Slavs during era of slavery would open possibility for understanding of Polish/Slavic antagonistic look on Jews. Still, no matter all Slavic antagonism on Jews, Slavs never crossed the line and desired genocide on Jews. Western Europeans and Arabs did it. Slavs themselves were the victims of same ideologies, by same those who harmed Jews. Here must be said that it won`t be right to blame all Poles or all Slavs if some of our people, deluded by Nazi ideology, traitors to his own Slavic people, harmed Jews. Also, it won`t be right to blame Poles or other Slavs because they didn`t do more to protect Jews from Nazis. By the God, Slavs were biggest victims of WWI and WWII. Slavic causalities were far greatest.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
25 Aug 2017  #222
@Ironside, what does "affirmative action" have to do with it? Incidentally, that wasn't Tacitus' quote, but mine:-)@ Lyzko

I'm well aware it is your quote, affirmative action has a lot do to with a consistency testing question. Please feel free to drive this thread off topic but answer my question first.

Poland received one quarter of Germany's pre-war territory as compensation

That is not true. It has nothing to do with compensation for the war loses.

Which has already happened as stated before, Poland received German territory and later money from the FRG.

As I said, that territory has nothing to do with compensation. Also I Don't belie that the issue of compensation has been settled in the past until a legally binding document will be produced.

About modern Germany I know enough to know that they are not fully aware of the degree to which they have destroyed Poland and its populace. I also know that German TV and some newspaper talk about Polish Camps in regard to the German Konzentrationslagers and dead camps from the WWI.

Hardly an inspiring performance.
Sure they are beading the dead horse talking about Holocaust and all that but I doubt they're talking about murdered Poles.
Also I don't find it appriopate if Germans are trying to lecture Poles on anti-Semitism or democracy. That is unacceptable, rude and tells me that in regard to the moral issues and facing historical responsibilities Germans still have a lot to learn.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
25 Aug 2017  #223
In this case, Ironside means that if one holds to be true the maxime that present day people cannot be held responsible for the crimes of their great-grandfathers, then the policy of affirmative action admissions to .........

You got it. I'm impressed. However I'm not familiar with any such a book. Was it your favorite lecture?
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
26 Aug 2017  #224
You mean "reading"?? Unless it's an audio book, a "lecture" in English is always aural.

Ah me, typical Latinized transference error from Polish. Heard a Polish mother not long ago scold her son (IN ENGLISH, no less) for "making dramas" in the store.

:-))
Ironside 48 | 9,796
26 Aug 2017  #225
Ah me, typical Latinized transference

Thanks Lzyko I haven't notice it. That was helpful.
---
You haven't answer my question.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
27 Aug 2017  #226
Only too glad to help spread the wealth aka the Gospel according to St. Mark/Lyzka:-)

Once you ask a question worth answering, I'd be happy to.
Tacitus 2 | 852
27 Aug 2017  #227
Neither it was Germany that was "giving" nor Poland was asking for it. It was a decision of the "big 4".

This is not entirely true. Polish officials actively asked Stalin for German territory as compensation, although Stalin declined to give them everything they asked for (including Rügen and Bautzen). Of course the decision was made by Stalin, but the claim for compensation was one of the key arguments made by Polish officials (even those who lived in London) as to why those territories should be given to Poland. So yes, they very much count as reparation.

That's why you are destroying Europe for the 3rd time ? This time with muslim savages as the foot soldiers ?

Someone has been reading his Breitbart alright.

@Crow

rambling about Sarmatians and Jews

I have really no idea what you are talking about here Apparantly the Jews did something to Slavs (when, where and how?)?

@Ironside

Also I Don't belie that the issue of compensation has been settled in the past until a legally binding document will be produced.

So you are insisting on ignoring the treaties of 1953, 1970 and 1990/91 to which links have been provided on this very thread? Am I supposed to print out copies, drive to your home and present them to your face until you acknowledge them?

I also know that German TV and some newspaper talk about Polish Camps in regard to the German Konzentrationslagers and dead camps from the WWI.

Do you also know that visiting those death camps is de cato mandatory for every German pupil (although they often visit for practical reasons camps in Germany)? Every German knows Ausschwitz and "Arbeit macht frei", nobody here would believe that they were run by anyone but Germans. Just to clarify, during my time at school, I once talked with a Holocaust survivor (who visited schools) and I visited with my class KZ Theresienstadt in the Czech Republic. We also once visited a small KZ in France whose name escapes me at the moment.

Also I don't find it appriopate if Germans are trying to lecture Poles on anti-Semitism or democracy.

Considering that Germany is one of the best examples on how a deeply anti-democratic and anti-semitic society can develop into a mature democracy that has once again become for Jewish immigration (particulay Berlin), I think Germany has a lot it can teach to Poland, especially since Poland is currently struggling with antidemocratic tendencies and has so far struggled to acknowledge its' antisemitic problem both in past and present. German politicians should certainly be more outspoken in case PiS continues to erode the rule of law in Poland. Anything else would be harmful to the interest of the Polish people to whom Germany owes a great moral debt.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
27 Aug 2017  #228
I think Germany has a lot it can teach to Poland

Need I remind you that German were in habit in murdering Poles, including women, children, toddlers and pregnant women if they happened to be hiding Jews from the German overlords in their household. In that context lecturing Poles about dangers of anti-Semites today seems like prove that Teutonic hubris hasn't been decapitated and belongs firmly in the past as Germans are bragging all the time but transformed instead into something much more insidious and potentially as destructive.

If anyone today need an instruction and a moral guidance - that be Germans.

Do you also know that visiting those death camps is de cato mandatory for every German pupil

Hence may claim that German TV is doing it on purpose not out of the ignorance. Hardly surprising as the IIIReich war 'heroes' often enjoyed a long and lucrative careers as a very prominent people.

Polish officials actively asked Stalin for German territory as compensation,

What Polish officials? That is some kind of the myth. Soviet Poles weren't Polish and were following Stalin's orders. The only thing that said was Yes, comrade Stalin. Not in the position to make any demands.

As for the Polish legal grovemnat in exile it was neither in position to make any demands nor in contact with Stalin, so that line of reasoning belong in the garbage.

The only a small kernel of true in this strange fatmasagoric mambo-jumbo of yours. It is a fact that there existed Polish projects in regard to the acquisition by Poland of Germans territories. Mainly it was about Gdansk, East Prussia and Silesia.

Two main points:
- they based their territorial 'demands' on a premise that Poland's Eastern borders remain the same.
- that Germany as a state lost all moral and legal rights due to the way they acted during the war.
You claim that those territories are a compensation are not factual and if you insist I can counter that Soviet creation couldn't act in the name of Poland. In 1991 there is nothing about war reparations that is legally binding, just some ambiguous slogans.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
27 Aug 2017  #229
Polish officials actively asked Stalin for German territory as compensation,

of course they did,but demands for more German territories were in the context of losing east Poland to SU.but Polish gov in exile was against territorial changes

So yes, they very much count as reparation.

am not sure ,you understand word "reparation" so i will provide definition to you:
"the action of making amends for a wrong one has done, by providing payment or other assistance to those who have been wronged."
and explain it to you plainly: REPARATION in its concept suppose to BENEFIT receiver..what sort of benefit Poland gain for all damages if as a result of such "reparation" ended with much smaller territory.

border changes made in Yalta cannot be seen as war reparation to Poland cus it benefited SU not Poland.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
27 Aug 2017  #230
of course they did,

No, they didn't. Those are circulated some myths pulled out straight from someone unwashed ......!
Tacitus 2 | 852
27 Aug 2017  #231
If anyone today need an instruction and a moral guidance - that be Germans.

Sure, whatever. It wasn't Germany though that e.g. participated in the illegal Iraq war of 2003, or turned their back on the many refugees entering Europe as a later consequence this war.

Hardly surprising as the IIIReich war 'heroes' often enjoyed a long and lucrative careers as a very prominent people.

Which has nothing to do with current German television. Honestly if you wre to actually watch it you would never make such claims.

As for the Polish legal grovemnat in exile it was neither in position to make any demands nor in contact with Stalin, so that line of reasoning belong in the garbage.

Just read a few history books. There are lot that illustrate how Polish officials (both in London and under Stalin's control) wanted German territory and those demands increased over the course of the war. Stalin made the decision, but he knew that he had their support doing so. This is a historical fact and not up to debate.

- they based their territorial 'demands' on a premise that Poland's Eastern borders remain the same.
- that Germany as a state lost all moral and legal rights due to the way they acted during the war.

It is a matter of fact that the Western governments were sympathic towards Polish demands because they considered their wishes as justified. Poland could also argue that the annexation of those territories would make their border to Poland more defensible, which again made sense.

In 1991 there is nothing about war reparations that is legally binding, just some ambiguous slogans.

Which is why we have the treaties of 1953, 1970 and 1990 too.

border changes made in Yalta cannot be seen as war reparation to Poland cus it benefited SU not Poland.

For once, the German territories had far more economic value that the territories lost to the east. Secondly, Poland received a lot of territory from Germany, this is in itself an compensation for what has been done by the Germans. That the SU decided to annex East Poland is on them, and if anything Poland should ask Russia for compensation. Honestly, how anyone can still argue that Poland received no compensation from Germany despite a) a large part of Germany's territory b)reparations from the GDR, if however little c)reparations by the FRG and d) political support from 1990 onwards to help it become a stable democracy and join the EU is beyond me.

" by providing payment or other assistance to those who have been wronged."

Germany has done both then. It payed reparations as late as 1990 and has been of assistance to Poland ever since, particulary in allowing them to join the EU when many countries were against it (particulary France). Hopefully Berlin will also help Poland survive the PiS government without lasting damage to its' democratic institutions.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
28 Aug 2017  #232
For once, the German territories had far more economic value that the territories lost to the east.

BS,or at least debatable..germans cities were smaller and in ruins.while Lvow and Vilno untouched.

Poland received a lot of territory from Germany, this is in itself an compensation for what has been done by the Germans

BS..it was not ment to compensate damage and human loses for Poland

That the SU decided to annex East Poland is on them, and if anything Poland should ask Russia for compensation

why dont you understand simple thing.there was no Anexation of territories by SU as such,it was a whole new borders agreement after war.with SU receiving Polands east land as a war reparation while compensating Poland with German loss for those land Poland lost in east.this agreement cant be seen as "poland land garbing german land" and "SU annexed polish land" idiocy.

this was clearly to compensate SU by moving Poland westward.
PIS is calling for compensation for damage and human loss that Poland never received.
if there is any country that deserved payouts after war it was Poland,but we ended with territorial loses and no reparation.
TheOther 5 | 3,801
28 Aug 2017  #233
SU receiving Polands east land as a war reparation

Nonsense. War reparations from Poland? For what?

The former Polish territories in the east were already occupied by the Soviets at the very beginning of WW2 and they would've kept them no matter what. Territory by the way that to a large extent belonged to the Russian Empire before WW1. They simply took it back, and the Brits and Americans were too weak to stop Stalin from doing so.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
28 Aug 2017  #234
It seems to me, at the all-time risk of flogging the proverbial dead horse, that The Federal Republic of Germany has paid MORE than her fair share of compensatory damages for crimes admittedly for which there can never be any just or adequate compensation, as the damage wrought remains far too great to comprehend!!

These are gestures, to be sure, but indeed gestures in the right direction.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
28 Aug 2017  #235
Sure, whatever. It wasn't Germany though that e.g. participated in the illegal Iraq war of 2003, or turned their back on the many refugees entering Europe as a later consequence this war.

Which has nothing to do with the issue. Reparations should be paid, you don't make moral judgment in your one case.

Which is why we have the treaties of 1953, 1970 and 1990 too

Which doesn't talk about reparations and on the top of it 1953 is fake - even if we assume that Soviet Poland's acts are legally binding.

the Brits and Americans were too weak to stop Stalin from doing so.

In the head and morally. Not too weak militarily.
@Lyzko stop trolling. They haven't paid for the material loses nearly enough.
Lyzko 23 | 6,659
28 Aug 2017  #236
And so you'd gladly bleed them dry merely to satisfy a grudge, eh?

All the money in heaven and earth ain't bringin' the dead back any too soon. You're arguing the same capital punishment BS. Revenge may taste sweet a first, but quickly sours as soon as Poland realizes there's nothing left in her already bare coffers:-)

Come on, Ironside & Co.,get a life, will youse!!
G (undercover)
28 Aug 2017  #237
Tacitus: This is not entirely true. Polish officials actively asked Stalin for German territory as compensation, although Stalin declined to give them everything they asked for (including Rügen and Bautzen). Of course the decision was made by Stalin, but the claim for compensation was one of the key arguments made by Polish officials (even those who lived in London) as to why those territories should be given to Poland. So yes, they very much count as reparation.

I really doubt Polish government in London had anything to do with it. The territorial changes were a matter of one thief stealing from the other to compensate the 3rd party for what they stole from them. If anything, that could be a point against potential Russian claims - that they took those lands as a compensations... what they did with it next (compensated PL for what they stole in the east) is another story not related to bilateral relations between Poland and Germany.

Regarding economic value of these lands... They might be well developed before Red Army went through it. After that there were ruined cities and empty factories - before Polish administration was established there, Soviets shipped out thousands of trains with loot, they even published their own detailed statistics on that, you can look it up. In 1945 Lvov was surely in better condition than Wroclaw. So much for a "great deal".

Someone has been reading his Breitbart alright.

Better Breitbart than Euro msm, which follow the party line and won't dare to call terrorist attacks anything else than "incidents". The whole thing about Germany "learning from the past" and so on... Greek debt crisis, now "refugees", these are manufactured crisises - in order to drive "further integration of Europe", of course under German leadership. So basically the same **** with different make up. You can't logically explain all the "refugees wilkommen" nonsense. You Gerries are bringing terrorism (and soon likely a friggin muslim uprising across Europe) upon us just to achieve your political and economic goals. Which shows that you learnt big nothing out of all those "visits in the camps" and other nonsense for show.

Regarding compensations... It's not really that we want any money, personally I wouldn't even like to get it... it's rather a matter of chasing off the 4th Reich from mending in our affairs. You see, you in Germany are not even allowed to elect the President. One woman has been the head of gov since 12 years, at the same time she is the head of the main party, so controls the parliament and thus basically elect the President. So If Kaczynski is a dictator then Makrel is a dictator ^3. Or the whole concept of CDU-SPD coalition... so what's the whole point of running elections ? To decide If person X will be the PM and Y the deputy or the other way around ? How democratic :))) Well, but we don't give a damn how your country is organised, you on the other hand, are producing "news" about "rising authoritarism" in Poland and pimp this nonsense across the world. This **** cost us money, you actually should be sued for compensation for the black PR campaign you gays are running.

"Nazis were evil but we learnt so much from the past... uhm... now we are so democratic and holy... and... we will be making sure others are also so democratic, pro-semitic and what's not and... we will organise EU army and police to make sure everyone is safe... and... that European values are respected... and that CO2 emission is limited... and..." how about you feck off and mind your own business ?
mafketis 20 | 7,341
29 Aug 2017  #238
Reparations should be paid, you don't make moral judgment in your one case

The issue has already disappeared from the media after serving its purpose of distracting people.

**** is no more likely to formally initiate any procedure for reparations than it is to formally invade Vilnius and Lviv...

It's political theater meant to rile up its supporters so they'll bark on cue. And it works.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,618
29 Aug 2017  #239
The issue has already disappeared from the media after serving its purpose of distracting people.

It seems so. The official propaganda have gone completely silent on that now. The question remains, however, why this issue emerged at that particular time. Yes, it can serve the purpose of distracting people's attention at any time, so why that particular moment was better than some other one?

And yes, it will soon disappear from the PF, too, which fact will nicely support your idea of the:

political theater meant to rile up its supporters so they'll bark on cue. And it works.

Lyzko 23 | 6,659
29 Aug 2017  #240
The bigger issue though, once again, is when do reparations STOP being paid! As I asked the other day, is breaking Germany's coffers the answer to "redressing" the wrongs of recent history?


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