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Poland must get back Lwow, Wilno and Brest back


kaprys 3 | 2,415
5 Jul 2020 #121
@Vlad1234
You are being quite selective.
First of all, since you were so eager to mention the Polish migration to the UK, why are you so silent about the Ukrainian migration to Poland -almost half a million working here legally -add their children and those who work illegally.

Secondly, the prewar population of Lwów wasn't Polish vs Ukrainians. You dare question the data pawian provided it was Poles who did the census. Well, Austrians did several censuses in the 19/20th century and unfortunately for your argument, the majority (religion/language) were Roman Catholic and Polish. Then Jews and Greek Catholic /Ruthenian were third.

Whether you like it or not, Poles have contributed greatly to the development of Lwów. Afaik, you can still see many Polish traces in Lwów. I would like to see them one day but I have no intention whatsoever to move there.

I also don't think it's Poland who are the greatest danger to the independence of Ukraine.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #122
why are you so silent about the Ukrainian migration to Poland

What I have to say about this? Poland is forced to permit Ukrainians to enter Poland to do some dirty job because of its own population decline. But you are going to populate Lvov with Poles or with Ukrainian migrants? What use for Poland make Ukrainian migrants in this relation?
Crow 139 | 8,169
5 Jul 2020 #123
independence of Ukraine

Like all countries of former Yugoslavia, except Serbia and Slovenia, Ukraine is a proxi and the rogue state. There are ethnically and historically regions that are Russian, Polish, Ukrainian and Ruthenian. Serbian element is largely assimilated by all those. They are aware of their Serbian traces but assimilation is reality.

Why not divide territory on those four regions and then talk of what is Ukraine, what is independent and what is to merge with Poland or Russia. That is what people there want if anybody care. Rest, what we see now, is politics.

Plus, Ukrainians and Ruthenians are nations that aren`t completely formed as unique nations. Or they are? Or partially? Is it alright to finish their formation as unique nations or it represent stealing from Poland and Russia? If allow formation of those new nations, why then not revive Serbian element and regions, too?
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #124
Possibly yes, they did. 51% of Lvov population were Catholic in 1921. And 63.5% spoke Polish as first language in 1931.

Does 51% of Roman Catholic population means Polish majority? Not all the Roman Catholics were ethnic Polish. There could be some Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Lithuanians, Austrians among them. Even ethnic Ukrainians. If we assume that it was number of ethnic Poles who grew from 51% to 63.5% between 1921 and 1931 then it makes a surprise how quickly it grew just in 10 years. Therefore there could be a question about reliability, I think.
Ironside 49 | 10,375
5 Jul 2020 #125
Why not?

Because it was early middle ages - that why. Plus Kiev was ruled by Scandinavians up to 1050.

Where was Poland as a country in 1800-1918?

Answer to that is complex. Short one - yes. In one form or other. A different angle - at least there was a country - continuous for the most of the history with short discontent.

In Ukrainian it is opposite. Hell even countries like Burgundy or few others have more evidence and history stacked in their favor. Those claim to Kiev Rus are a stretch, not language nor a culture nor political structure of Ukraine has anything to do with it. Hell not even religion, Orthodoxy of Ukraine (fragmented) is not Orthodoxly of Kiev Rus and has been shaped by its history.

Like there three region with different view on history, different languages and we could go on.... there is mothing that could be counted as count unity in anyway and there is not even tat much in common.

Hey do I say anything. It is possible for people bunched on the same territory to say - hey we are not Russian we are not Poles or Moldavian and we are not Kazakhs - we are Ukrainians and aspire for their own country and build some myths to support that claims for nationhood. I don't disparage that.

However I have no patience for some bizarre claims. Talking about territory. The only reason Ukraine has that territory is because it belonged to Soviet Union which fragmented.

There is nothing in it borders that reflect history or an actual state of the nation of Ukraine.
A short spell of discontinuity in Poland's statehood doesn't erase continuity across the spectrum and a long history to back it up. There is no free lunch. Myths are not a bad thing but if you have nothing but myths it doesn't bode well for the people or a country.

Poland is forced to permit Ukrainians to enter Poland to do some dirty job because of its own population decline.

It has nothing to do with that. It just the way current economical policies of the west roll. It is slowly going to change.

Not all the Roman Catholics were ethnic Polish

Nor all Orthodox were ethnic Ukrainians. You can't pick and choose an answer that suit you, it is not a buffet.
Same with statistic IF Polish statistic are biased than Austrian statics are biased too. Also no go into this ethnic thing. Not educated people could be Ukrainians but the same person after geeing an education calls himself a Pole, Divide run into families with one brother saying Polish other Ukrainian. It is much more complex that you want it to be. Besides demographic is only a one of many arguments in debating territory, not that terribly important.
kaprys 3 | 2,415
5 Jul 2020 #126
@Vlad1234
You're still not getting my point.
Poles greatly contributed to the development of Lwów whether you like it or not. Its history is related to the history of Poland.
But I don't think there would be a lot of volunteers among Poles to move there. Even among the descendants of those who were resettled from the city. Even among those who argue that Lwów is Polish. Mere nostalgia is too little to make such a decision.

As for Ukrainian migration to Poland, yeah right, as if Ukrainians are forced to move here because bloody oppressive Poles decided so. It was their decision.

Ukraine has more serious problems than the Polish nostalgia of the prewar Lwów.
You'd better worry about that because I kind of guess you'd rather live in Ukraine rather than Little Russia or whatever other name they may think of as this term is several hundred years old.
gumishu 11 | 5,326
5 Jul 2020 #127
oes 51% of Roman Catholic population means Polish majority?

Vlad - the point is those who want Lviv back are complete fringes of Polish society - it's a non-issue in serious politics in Poland
mafketis 23 | 8,543
5 Jul 2020 #128
I completely agree... (for once)
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
5 Jul 2020 #129
who want Lviv back are complete fringes of Polish society

"fringes" Because those who lived there were mainly either killed or deported to soviet / later Nazi work camps not a surprise that there are not many people in Poland who came from the Lviv region , many survivors of Lviv such as my family are now scattered across the globe .

So its ok to ask for things back in Poland if you were a Jewish deportee from Poland, but not if You were a Polish deportee from Poland.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #130
In 1991 it landed in Kiev for the first time in a very long time.

Just 630 years passed since Lithuanians conquered it (1362-1991). And briefly it became a center of power in 17-th century. Not extremally long time by historical measures. Many cities in the World lost its capital-like significance for hundreds of years. For example Jerusalem.
Lenka 3 | 1,999
5 Jul 2020 #131
So its ok to ask for things back in Poland if you were a Jewish , but not if You were a Polish.

I never heard of Jews wanting to change the European borders
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
5 Jul 2020 #132
Sorry Didnt make myself clear my comments were more related to reparations for losses than border changes doh sorry , Why cant I go and live in my parents homes ? (Not that I want to ) why isn't the Ukraine making reparations in the same way that Poland is (not that I want it )

What gets me about the whole thing is how both the soviets and western allies found the whole subject of Lvov as a bit of an embarrassment that had to be hidden and down payed , numbers had to be hidden ....

Much of the above history had never been taught in Poland during communist rule , not surprising when some poles say they are not bothered , mainly because they know nothing about the subject.
mafketis 23 | 8,543
5 Jul 2020 #133
why isn't the Ukraine making reparations in the same way that Poland is (not that I want it )

you can't squeeze blood from a turnip... ukraine is desperately poor and under military attack

there's also the case that ukraine is not the successor state of the USSR and can't be held liable for decisions made during that time...

you could lso argue that Ukraine is making reparations through their labor (without which much of the pre-corona growth of the last few years wouldn't have happened)
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
5 Jul 2020 #134
ukraine is not the successor state of the USSR and can't be held liable for decisions made during that time...

So how do you explain that Poland is being held liable and is paying reparations , whilst you can defend Ukraine not paying reparations?
mafketis 23 | 8,543
5 Jul 2020 #135
how do you explain that Poland is being held liable and is paying reparations

I'm not in favor of those either...
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #136
Why cant I go and live in my parents homes ?

I didn't understand what are you talking exactly, but:

About 480,000 people from Zakerzonia (west of the Curzon Line), were moved eastward to the territory which became part of Soviet Ukraine and Belarus.

Why these people just cannot return in Poland and live in their parent's homes?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Poland_and_Soviet_Ukraine
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
5 Jul 2020 #137
Why these people just cannot return in Poland

Why don't they, Ukraine should become the first state of the united states of Poland . plenty of Ukraines here already , doing a mighty fine job.
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #138
So how do you explain that Poland is being held liable and is paying reparations

Paying reparations to whom?!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
5 Jul 2020 #139
Geeze vlad get with the program... where are you from ?
Vlad1234 16 | 676
5 Jul 2020 #140
Why cant I go and live in my parents homes ?

Majority of those homes are ruins already. Unless Ukrainians invested a lot of money to renovate them.
Crow 139 | 8,169
5 Jul 2020 #141
those who want Lviv back are complete fringes of Polish society - it's a non-issue in serious politics in Poland

Why that isn't serious and molesting Czeska is serious?

Is only normalcy in Poland's politics on kin Slavs, decision to permit arming of Serbia?
gumishu 11 | 5,326
5 Jul 2020 #142
and molesting Czeska is serious?

I don't even know what you mean by that - do you mean that Poland is pestering Czech Republic for Zaolzie - if so then you are very very wrong
Crow 139 | 8,169
5 Jul 2020 #143
Good then
Vlad1234 16 | 676
6 Jul 2020 #144
Ukraine should become the first state of the united states of Poland

Are you serious about that? Which exactly plan of unification would you propose? Could you give some details on such a hypothetic state?
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
6 Jul 2020 #145
Texas is an example go look it up. Western Ukraine and Poland would make a strong partnership, the eastern land is good for joint Polish Ukraine and US training and manoeuvres, also a good place to put Polish Nuclear reactors, Ukrainians have proved themselves and can deal with any nuclear emergencies.
Crow 139 | 8,169
6 Jul 2020 #146
I wouldn't suggest that Poland invade. Instead, Poland should start media campaign that will show intwntions of Poland to merge with western Ukraine.

If I lead media campaign I would focus on several feelds in mass medua. 1 Explanation to Poland s population. 2 Explanation to population of Ukraine and western Ukraine. 3 Explanation to Russia that its not hostile move but suggestion to solve problem. 4 Explanation to Nato and EU. 5 Explanation to the Slavic world and globe.

So, it should show intention of Poland. Then wait for signals and act when suitable. Most important is that Ukraine and Russia accept. That green light you need to make it work when it happening and later to live with it.

But it wont be cheap financially.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
6 Jul 2020 #147
If Ukraine Joined Poland It would mean that the EU would recognise the Union and cash payments will be extended to fix Ukraines infrastructure.

Poland gets a great workforce the Ukraine economy will be raised to at least that of Poland, the new United States of Poland may one day challenge the place of some of the more wealthy states in the EU.

Next state ? any suggestions
call1n 2 | 136
6 Jul 2020 #148
I have a suggestion:
Why doesn't Poland leave the EU with Lithuania and join up with Ukraine?
This would be the center of European identity, not UK and Germany.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,878
6 Jul 2020 #149
Why doesn't Poland leave the EU

All in good time but the ego's in the EU will be well served letting them think the EU model is successful and thriving with the new polish states making up for the loss of Britain. Then later when we have mopped up all the spare EU cash and it suits us we could choose to leave and create this new centre state as you suggested.

Would you like to be my deputy when I am prime minister.
Crow 139 | 8,169
6 Jul 2020 #150
cash payments will be extended to fix Ukraines infrastructure

And then when Poland leave EU have to give back all. And if don't have to give back would pay with teritories.

Forget EU on the long run. There wont be EU. All would ask for their money back. There would be wild brawl


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