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Poland must get back Lwow, Wilno and Brest back


pawian 170 | 11,398
24 Jun 2020 #91
Not will, but would. :) This won`t happen.
Ironside 49 | 10,316
24 Jun 2020 #92
In this way we can see you accept the idea of partitioning Ukraine in alliance with Russia.

what are you talking about? Russia is unable to take a large chunk of eastern Ukraine regardless of the war they wage on them. Why would I look at some Russian plans. Besides their 'offer' for Poland is clary a joke.

They 'offer' for Poland some lands but that is not the crux of the matter, they want to take lands important from the point of view of geopolitics. They think Poles are clueless idiots. (they are not that far off given the state of Polish politicians and so called elite - Ziemko comes to mind as pawian is just a con artist.)

In Poland interest is to either take the land in question to control or leave it in Ukrainian hands provided that state is not Russian vassal. Giving it to Russia is no no.

Hungary?

Good they are cool bros.

Did you watch or attend that discussion?

I have seen it. I'm talking about that 'offer' not Crow's crooning.
Crow 139 | 8,620
25 Jun 2020 #93
they want to take lands important from the point of view of geopolitics. They think Poles are clueless idiots.

Why is so hard to be honest to you?

Vatican in past and Germany recently experimented (and in past), as foreign factors in Ukraine. They did it in order to expand Germany and Germanics, not Poland. Used even Poland for that. And even us Serbs. But nothing to Poland. Vatican and Germany did it to harm Poland. Poland is itself on Germanic menu. Only opening to Poland creating Russia. Russia`s attempt to protect her own ethnic, historical and geo-strategic rights in Ukraine. Poland should do the same and start to negotiate with Russia on new border between Poland and Russia. Negotiate soon as possible, without waiting Vatican`s approval, or German. Have backbone, don`t humiliate yourself.

Let us say loudly - Vatican hate Poland! No need Poland to wait for Vatican`s approval! No need to wait Vatican to start more love Poland then it love Germany!

I have seen it. I'm talking about that 'offer' not Crow's crooning.

Crow is here to reprimand you.
Much better for Poland ti expand onto its historic lands in what is now Ukraine, then to molest Czechs. Dont molest Czechs, why would you.

Then, with new lands in Ukraine, Poland would have enough space to populate Germans when they start to flee from western Germany.
Ironside 49 | 10,316
28 Jun 2020 #94
Vatican and Germany

More nonsense.

No need Poland to wait for Vatican`s approval!

WTF are you about? Why political issues should need Vatican approval. that doesn't even enter the picture. You spew some outlandish nonsense.

to negotiate with Russia on new border

what to negotiate. There is no common interest here, quite t he opposite.

"Dont molest Czechs" and you stop molesting yourself. Seems to me all your post are result of your sexual frustration.
Crow 139 | 8,620
28 Jun 2020 #95
WTF are you about? Why political issues should need Vatican approval.

We all know the rules of engagement.

Popes hold Poland while supporting Germany. Or, if not hold then giving crazy missions to Poland, missions that just tire Poland. Then comes Germany and takes the praise or just damage the thing for Poland.

what to negotiate......."Dont molest Czechs" and you stop molesting yourself

Borders, of course. Lwow belongs to Poland. And much more.

As for Czechs, you know what is the problem. Why invade them a few days ago?
Vlad1234 16 | 651
3 Jul 2020 #96
What unites Poland with Lvov so strongly? Between 1771 and 2020 Lvov was under Polish rule just 20 years - in 1919-1939. Between 1771-1919 it was under Austrian rule and was known as Lemberg. Official state language was German. Neither it was founded by Poles and possibly ethnic Poles never constituted majority of population in Lvov. At least not in 20-th century. Ukrainians claim there were times when Orthodox Christians constituted majority of population in Polish cities of Chelm, Lublin and Peremyshl. Does it mean Ukrainians have to claim them back?
pawian 170 | 11,398
3 Jul 2020 #97
possibly ethnic Poles never constituted majority of population in Lvov. At least not in 20-th century.

Possibly yes, they did. 51% of Lvov population were Catholic in 1921. And 63.5% spoke Polish as first language in 1931.

wielkahistoria.pl/przedwojenny-lwow-w-liczbach-zaskakujace-fakty-i-statystyki/
Vlad1234 16 | 651
3 Jul 2020 #98
This data could be unreliable and I meat different claims regarding this. Official statistics in 1921-31 was done by Poles and they could intentionally exaggerate the numbers of Poles. Many Ukrainians under Polish rule were not even regarded as a citizens and had no passports. But statistics done by Austrians somewhere between 1910-1914 showed much smaller amount of Poles, no more then 1/3.
Vlad1234 16 | 651
3 Jul 2020 #99
Please take note that neither me or almost all of Ukrainians have territorial claims to Poland. But nonetheless:
The Polish city of Chelm:

In 981 the town, then inhabited by the Eastern Slavic tribe of Buzhans, was made a part of Kievan Rus', along with the surrounding Cherven Towns.

The town was the capital of a historical region of the Land of Chełm, administratively a part of the Ruthenian Voivodeship with the capital in Lviv (Lwów).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Che%C5%82m

Why to argue whether some city is Polish or Ukrainian? Let better create Europe without borders. And unite in all the possible ways.
Zlatko
4 Jul 2020 #100
Huh apparently Poland is not ready for that. Take a tour to Szczecin or Łódź outside of the old towns. So many derelict areas there! Fix what you've got now first. ;)

Poland must make a cooperative trade union with Sweden and Hungary and go away from German/EU influence. Why not Czechia and Slovakia as well? Czechs love Germans and Slovaks are a bit "rustic" and their cities look so drab (Poland better look up to the wonderful, lush green Swedish and Magyar towns). Also pull a Skopje 2014 and make your towns and cities that Germans and Russians destroyed great/beautiful again (you don't need to steal history like Macedonians to do it!).
kaprys 3 | 2,374
4 Jul 2020 #101
@Zlatko
Fix what you have in Bulgaria first before you give advice to Poland ;)

@Vlad1234
Since 'getting back' Lwów would probably equal another armed conflict I don't think it would make sense. What's the next step? Depopulating the city and populating it with Poles?

Nevertheless, whether you like it or not Polish people lived in Lwów and greatly contributed to its history.
These were the times we don't know when Poles, Ruthenians and Jews lived together.
Zlatko
4 Jul 2020 #102
Actually our towns of same size look better than Łódź, Rzeszow, Radom and Szczecin. See Pazardzhik, Tărnovo, Ruse.
kaprys 3 | 2,374
4 Jul 2020 #103
@Zlatko
Have you actually been to Rzeszów, Szczecin or any other place in Poland?
Zlatko
4 Jul 2020 #104
Which is a shame really, as Poland is supposedly wealthier but so many buildings in Łódź, Szczecin, Rzeszow and the whole Radom and Katowice that look so derelict like from the set of Hostel (2005). PiS hasn't done anything to improve those impoverished looking areas.
kaprys 3 | 2,374
4 Jul 2020 #105
@Zlatko
Have you actually been to Poland?

I have been to several European countries and there are some picturesque places and rough looking places as well. That applies to both Central and Western Europe including places like London, Paris or Naples. I could name some more I guess.

As for Bulgaria, the old town in Plovdiv is great but I have seen also smaller places where ancient Roman monuments are mixed with beautiful historical buildings and post communist ones. I don't expect Bulgarians to get rid of them just because. Some are well preserved, some are not. What struck me most about Bulgaria was abandoned looking villages we drove through on the way to Sofia. I didn't get a chance to visit the capital -except for the airport but I guess I could find not so good looking parts like in any other European capitals I have seen. Or like in many other towns and cities.

And please don't post random google maps links.
I'm not going to deny there are some rough looking areas in Poland. But I have seen such in many other European towns.
Crow 139 | 8,620
4 Jul 2020 #106
steal history like Macedonians

If you speak of antiquity, no Macedonia didn't stole nothing from Greaks. Its quite oposite because Greaks stolen Slavic history.

But Macedonia failed to say complete truth and that is fact that population of Macedonia represent mixture of Bulgarians and Serbs, where communists tried to finish formation of new nation but eventualy failed. In middle age and to the WWI, all to the Saloniki lived Serbs as majority then Greaks killed 1 mil Serbs in genicide after WWI and populated area with Greek refugees from collapsed Tukish Empire, from Anatolia.

Greeks are very cruel and savage and Patriarchs of Constabtinople are evil same as Popes of Rome. Patrarchs hiding Greak genicide on Serbs and Vatican hiding genocid that happened on 1 mil Serbs in Croatia, during WWII where Vatican even was ditectly involved.

Those who lead Christianity arent Christians.
Zlatko
4 Jul 2020 #107
That's what I meant - Macedonians appropriate many Bulgarian (and probably Serbian as well) figures as Macedonian. I agree Greeks are savages, they're terrible even as individuals unlike Turks. Yes Turks are at least friendly in person despite their politics being evil.

Back on topic - I find Hungarian towns the best-looking in Central Europe (better than the sterile Austrian, Czech and Slovak ones). Poland can afford much better looking towns imo, the whole post-industrial drab look is depressing (plant more street trees please!). Krakow, Toruń and Zamosc are fantastic, but Sofia is much better looking than Warsaw imo (Budapest is better than both, better even than Prague and Vienna). Polish towns and cities need more restoration and return to classic Polish architecture. The sterile modern glass buildings are not really Polish.

The irony is poor Ukraine has maintained Lwow better than Poland has maintained some towns still in Poland. I bet PRL was a very bad, repressive regime where old buildings were left to decline and few plants and parks were made (pre-WWII Warsaw was fantastic and had many tree-lined streets).

Socialist rule was milder in Hungary so it's no wonder why Hungarian towns ended up looking less drab and are full of plants and color compared to other Central European countries. When I saw the now destroyed commie bus station in Bratislava I was shocked compared to the ultra modern we have in Sofia but since then (2017) Bratislava has become more modern.
Vlad1234 16 | 651
4 Jul 2020 #108
Depopulating the city and populating it with Poles?

And where they are going to take Poles for this? Return 0.5 million from UK or depopulate Polish villages? And since they can't claim just a city deep in Ukrainian territory, they have to claim surrounding areas too (to create a corridor) and find hundreds of thousands of Poles to populate these areas too and Brest as well. Unrealistic. I don't like when hate toward Ukrainians is promoted under excuse they "stole" Polish Lvov. In 1945 Poland did exchange of population with Ukraine under which 1 million of Ukrainians lost their lands in Zakerzonje region of South-Eastern Poland where they constituted, probably, a compact majority of population. Some of them lived in Chelm. Half of them had been deported to Ukraine and half in North-Western Poland on the newly recovered from Germany territories. And what if all the descendants of all those Ukrainians will demand Zakerzonje back? Ukrainians already paid a heavy price for Lvov.
Zlatko
4 Jul 2020 #109
I wonder how can some Polska B towns like Suwalki, Tomaszow Lubelski and Sanok look better than many in the wealthier Polska A?
Ironside 49 | 10,316
4 Jul 2020 #110
What unites Poland with Lvov so strongly?

Cause it is a major Polish city or used to be.

This data could be unreliable a

dude if that is unreliable that mean that all data is unreliable because every gov hold a bias. Either you take those numbers as a base to talk about numbers or you can guess. How reliable is that?

Why to argue whether some city is Polish or Ukrainian

There is nothing to argue about, What Ukrainian?

Fix what you have in Bulgaria first before you give advice to Poland

Exactly. Zlatko FO!
pawian 170 | 11,398
4 Jul 2020 #111
There is nothing to argue about, What Ukrainian?

In the same way a German may say about Wrocław and comment: What Polish? hahaha

don't like when hate toward Ukrainians is promoted under excuse they "stole" Polish Lvov.

The only person here who dreams of recapturing Lvov is Ironside, who is a mental nationalist and completely blind to any logic and reality. He even doesn`t live in Poland.
Ironside 49 | 10,316
4 Jul 2020 #112
In the same way a German may say

What do you care what they say or think? Beside so many times they have claimed that those lands are a proper compensation to Poland for all they have done during WWII, that would be brazen to go back on that. And if they would, we would ask for a proper compensation for WWII not some peanuts.

additionally Poland existed as county for 1000's of years. Ukraine from 1991. Spot the difference you crazy person with your hhhaa.

He even doesn`t live in Poland.

Look who is talking. You post from Israel.
mafketis 23 | 8,410
4 Jul 2020 #113
There is nothing to argue about, What Ukrainian?

Ukraine from 1991

The idea that Ukraine isn't a "real" country is a Putin talking point for invading and chopping up Ukraine.... Vova is not good company to have in an argument...
Vlad1234 16 | 651
4 Jul 2020 #114
@Ironside

Poland existed as county for 1000's of years. Ukraine from 1991.

Then which country is a Kievan Rus' descendant? Not Ukraine?
Ukrainians regarded Lvov and Chelm in 17-th century as their historical territory:
"In February 1649, during negotiations with a Polish delegation headed by Sen. Adam Kysil in Pereiaslav, Khmelnytsky declared that he was "the sole autocrat of Rus" and that he had "enough power in Ukraine, Podolia, and Volhynia... in his land and principality stretching as far as Lviv, Chełm, and Halych".

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising
Vlad1234 16 | 651
4 Jul 2020 #115
Personally I wouldn't be against mass immigration from Poland to Ukraine under condition that Poles will study Ukrainian and respect Ukrainians. Neither majority of Ukrainians, I guess. So, if the purpose to resettle Lvov with Poles, why to bring Lvov under Polish rule? No one prevents Poles move in Lvov and live there. No one prevents them built Roman Catholic churches there. Or promote Polish culture. What is the problem there?
pawian 170 | 11,398
4 Jul 2020 #116
What do you care what they say or think?

I care, darling, coz any change of borders in the East after a devastating war will result in the change of borders in the West. Only debils don`t understand it.

additionally Poland existed as county for 1000's of years. Ukraine from 1991

So what? Ukraine is a state and it is a fact. We are talking about factual situations, aren`t we?

Spot the difference you crazy person with your hhhaa.

buahahaha

The idea that Ukraine isn't a "real" country is a Putin talking point for invading and chopping up Ukraine.

Iron has always been suspected of being a Kremlin troll.

Look who is talking. You post from Israel.

Yes, I decided to pay you a visit. hahaha Why are you hiding from me? We were to meet at the Wailing Wall but you didn`t come. Why?


  • wAITING FOR IRON
Ironside 49 | 10,316
4 Jul 2020 #117
The idea that Ukraine isn't a "real" country is a Putin talking poin

I don't know what Putin talking point is and I don't care. I'm not saying that Ukraine is not a real country. I'm talking about their claims and about Polish land. .

I care,

You don't, you are very opinioned old commie fossil.

hen which country is a Kievan Rus' descendant?

Descended of what? All those claims are just legends or political statements. There were no Kiev Rus understood as country, there is no continuity.
Political center of those lands moved from Kiev to Wilno, then to Krakow then to Warsaw then To St. Petersburg then to Moscow. In 1991 it landed in Kiev for the first time in a very long time. It doesn't mean that they can claims any lands or territory they can think about. Quite the opposite they're in possession of the territories that doesn't belong to them and they would never had if they were an independent entity not a part of the Soviet Union.
pawian 170 | 11,398
4 Jul 2020 #118
I'm not saying that Ukraine is not a real country.

But you tried to play it down with these words: additionally Poland existed as county for 1000's of years. Ukraine from 1991. Spot the difference

You don't, you are very opinioned old commie fossil.

Yaaawn, How about some sensible arguments pertaining to our discussion?

Quite the opposite they're in possession of the territories that doesn't belong to them

You probably wanted to say: didn`t belong.
So what? It does belong now and the case is closed, my dear Watsiron.
Vlad1234 16 | 651
4 Jul 2020 #119
There were no Kiev Rus understood as country

Why not?

there is no continuity.

Where was Poland as a country in 1800-1918?
Crow 139 | 8,620
4 Jul 2020 #120
You know, if its up to me, Lwow will be part of Poland in an instant. First take and then ask. If Poland don't take it banderists will and then Germany will be asked. You Poles want that? Germans on your Southern borders, too? See, thank Popes for that situation.

So, act now or don't complain later.


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