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Mongolian the Golden Horde - do Poles have Mongolian ancestry?


McCoy 27 | 1,276
5 Feb 2009 #61
Armenians in Poland? I never heard of such a thing.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Poland

youtube.com/watch?v=oJKARFTLuIQ
Crazy Horse RVN
5 Feb 2009 #62
Does it matter so much what your ancestors were or is it more important what you are today?

Who among us can say we are pure Poles or pure anything? Nations have been invading each other for miliniums. If we are to be pure anything, we should strive to be pure of heart.
Calicoe 2 | 133
6 Feb 2009 #63
Yes, that is a beautiful sentiment Crazy Horse. I am always pure of heart, but it is important to me to understand fully who I am and where I came from.
hellopeople
7 Feb 2009 #64
I always thought the poles and baltids look a bit mongolian,but I was dna tested and got mostly slavic scores many high scores for Poland,but zero scores for Asia.Except for Altaian 0.23

I think if slavs have any asian ancestry its from Mongols or Altaians/
DK1 1 | 12
8 Feb 2009 #65
The "eastern" influence in Poles is Finno-Ugrian, so Uralic rather than Asian. But either way, its minimal, and more common in Scandinavia.

It's really not a mystery. Lots of detailed genetic studies have now been done on different parts of Poland. And we'll get a more detailed breakdown of the data over the next year or so, as more studies are completed.

My mom's family has some Polish, also German and French.

Charles Bronson was a Lithuanian Tatar.

Also, Lithuanians carry 30-40% of the Uralic marker called Tat-C (or N). It's rare in Poland, but common in North Eastern Europe, and tied to ancient migrations from near the Urals.

Oleg Balanovsky, Two Sources of the Russian Patrilineal Heritage in Their Eurasian Context, The American Journal of Human Genetics, Volume 82, Issue 1, 236-250, 10 January 2008, doi:10.1016/j.ajhg.2007.09.019
Calicoe 2 | 133
11 Feb 2009 #66
It's really not a mystery. Lots of detailed genetic studies have now been done on different parts of Poland.

Some indigenous Uralic people are part Asian or Eurasian to be exact. The indigenous tribes in Siberia on either side of the Urals will attest to this fact. The tribes farthest east look completely Asian and similar to Koreans, whereas the tribes in the center and on the western side looked typically Eurasian, and still do. The group that I think you are referring to in Northern Scandanavia are the Sami. I agree that many look mostly European but they also seem to have similar genetic markers as many other Finno-Ugrics, that display a link to other Eurasian Indigenous tribes and people from the other side of the Urals, such as Hungarians.

In terms of Poland, I am also one to believe that there is an Asian link, and I don't think it is as cut and dry as you present it here. As you said previously, history is filled with imprecisions and science is precise, but science can also be filled with both intentional and unintentional biases.
hellopeople
11 Feb 2009 #67
here here calicoe!
lecount1973
16 Feb 2009 #68
I took a DNA test to confirm or rule-out Asian blood. My results were 7% East Asian ancestry.

How did the dna test you took narrow it down to this, just curious about your results, maybe you can tell more, I just had a test done, waiting for the results, thanks
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
19 Feb 2009 #69
most Polish people (more than half) belong to the Sub-Nordic type, which is basically a mixture of Nordic with Ladogan with the Nordic gene being dominant (the Ladogans were an ancient ppl in North Eastern Europe of mixed white and Mongolian ancestry) and the rest or more 1/3 are either Nordic or Alpine. So yes we do have a little Mongolian admixture. Based on the newest genetic studies it is the Ukrainians who are the closest to us my blood, them already being Slavic like us, makes that not surprising. But also Hungarians are related to us as well, i'm not sure how but its been proven. Hungary has always been Polands friends, a king of Poland was also a king of Hungary at the same time, in the Russo-Polish War when Poland fought and beat Russia in 1920 Hungary wanted to send 30,000 soldiers to fight alongside Poland, in 1956 Hungarians supported Polish anti-communist uprising in Poznan, later on the same year Polish supported them in their uprising against Russian domination.
deedee - | 3
23 Feb 2009 #70
My DNA test just showed the percentages of Caucasion, East Asian, Sub Saharan African, and Native American. I am amazed this can be done, and I really don't know the details. I think that each group has lived in their own gene pool for centuries, with distinct genetic markers.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
23 Feb 2009 #71
Based on the newest genetic studies it is the Ukrainians who are the closest to us my blood,

Belorussians are the closest to you. "The newest genetic study" you mentioned was likely to be about politics rather than real state of affairs.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
25 Feb 2009 #72
really Sasha, hmmm, then i guess Polish and Ukrainian professors that did the study must be wrong, i'd like to know where u know that from??
Sasha 2 | 1,083
25 Feb 2009 #73
Pennboy, different professors make different studies. Surfing the internet you may easily find two diametrically opposite points on the genetics which would contradict each other (I for one have recently found the article "Scratch Russian... get Pole" with a study for it). On the whole I don't tend to thoroughly believe in any of them since the often tied up with political intrigues. So I'm trying to base on the common sense: Ukranians are mostly dark-haired for many factors including early Tataric&Don-Sursk influence whereas Belorussians are mostly blond. The info you're asking about I learnt from the article written by Ukranian author who claimed that in fact there were only two Slavic nation: Belorussians and Poles. All others can be hardly reckoned as Slavic. I don't think it's any biased and I somewhat share it. Btw Belorussian (the initial one, not the current Russianized version of it) is closer to Polish than any other language. And even the current version is so close that Belorussian lady and her Polish husband doesn't strongly need to study each others language since they understand one another quite well.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
25 Feb 2009 #74
Sasha, I know a Polish and Belorussian couple and they do understand each other very well. It's true that many Ukrainians are dark haired and eyed, but central and eastern Ukraine has been influenced by Tartars and other non Slavs, western Ukrainians look more like Polish people, and their language seems close to Polish as well. Also, look at the Poles that live by the Ukrainian border, or the ones that were resettled into Poland after the war, many look Ukrainian. i personally have at least 10 friends that are part Ukrainian, excluding myself. Russians also have alot of blond blue eyed people, some look straight up Scandinavian and i'm not talking about Rurik and his dynasty, Poles, Russians, Ukrainians all used to be originally Nordic, mixing over the centures changed that to a degree. I myself have nothing against Russians i've got Russian friends, from all over St.Petersburg, Podolsk, Novosibirsk, Tomsk, Krasnodar i've dated Russian girls they've dated Polish girls, it's all good.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
25 Feb 2009 #75
I myself have nothing against Russians

Neither have I against Poles.

western Ukrainians look more like Polish people, and their language seems close to Polish as well

True. But their group is insignificant on the scale of all Ukranian nation and they stand apart of the rest of the nation. I equally respect Ukranians, Belorussians and Poles. There's no interest for me to say that exactly Belorussians are closer to Poles; this is just what I feel basing on my life experience and knowledge I've got. There's always room for mistake.

EDIT: I'm glad Slavs deal good with each other being abroad. :)
myatska
23 Mar 2009 #76
Mongolians invaded Poland at least three times.
Tykotski
11 May 2009 #77
Thanks Softsong,
Its May,and I just read your response.
We will try that. Tykotski
Softsong 5 | 495
11 May 2009 #78
You're welcome Tykotski. If you do have a brother tested, let us know the results.
golf1951
27 May 2009 #79
I can state that the type B blood which I have came from my father. His mother was descended from Prussians. When my dad needed a transfusion during a childhood illness (a long bout of pneumonia, pre-antibiotic era), his mother was the one who donated her blood. The records are clear - all his mother's ancestors who came to America appeared on the census of the relevant period as Prussian, which is pretty close to Polish. The fact that one grandmother came from Berlin, which was a cosmopolitan city with lots of immigrants from the East, pretty much nails it that her own ancestors came from the region of the Golden Horde, which had been controlled by remnants of Ghengis Khan's armies. It is impossible at this time to say if my great-great grandmother from Berlin is the source of this type. It could be her husband who sailed from Hamburg (but may have come from Berlin as well). It's lucky I had my father's memory to the tell that story. Almost all of the rest of our lineage is British Isles. Some of the kids (including my daughter) have AB blood, which comes from two parents, because each type is passed on in co-dominance (or co-expression).

One tiny fact like this, combined with some genealogical sleuthing, can turn up a lot more to make the connection. It is clear, for instance, that the B blood did not come from the British ancestry in my case. Nevertheless, in other instances there are sure to be Brits who get it, but in those cases, of which there is low percentage, I would bet that it could be traced to Polish refugees in Britain after WWII, or Russians related to British nobility, or Jewish merchants who came from Eastern Europe and who settled in London or some large city in Britain. Just a guess. And if I didn't have my father's story, I might have run in those directions to find the evidence.
violetta 2 | 22
28 Jun 2009 #80
Reading all of this is confusing me even more.

The only question I would like an answer to is which Slavs are closest to the Poles in terms of DNA...and where the Russians lie on that list.

The reason I ask is because I am part Russian and part Polish, so the closer the better! lol :)
bartek - | 10
29 Jun 2009 #81
in 1409 Gelal al Din come to Poland from Crymean Peninsula with 6 tribes of Tatars. There was a political crisys in Crymean Khanat and they were oposition forced to leave thr country. So king of Poland has given them promision to live in Lithuania and they have startet to call them selfs "Lipkau Tataruar" - Lithunian Tartars. This name was quickly polonized to 'Lipkas" and Polish Tartars were callad just Likpas. Every one one tribe had to form one company of light cavalry under thier own commander -"uhlan". For examle the capitol's of Mongolia name is Uhlan Bator - "Red Hero". That commander should to be a noble man from the tribe, but those nobles who had no unit to command createt one extra company - "ulans company". And it was the begining of Polish ulans. They were loyal and brave. In XVII king Jan Kazimierz promoted most Tartar families to nobles. And most of them converted to Catholic Church.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
29 Jun 2009 #82
Sasha

Welcome to the world of Russian bull sh*t. Every sentence is full of lies. I completely agree with PennBoy that Polish and Bielorussian family would have difficulty to understand each other. I had a chance to speak to guys from both countries at the same time and I had to be a translator as each one of them were missing the parts of the conversation. On my part I never studied either Polish, or Bielorussian, but somehow it is easy for me to understand both.

The second thing is to claim that there are only two Slavic nations is simply preposterous and say that some Ukrainian professor claims that it is the truth. Please, get the quote of him, his name and credentials, Sasha. Don't throw words like that. Nobody says Russians are actually Mongoloid nation with Ugro-Finnish condiments here, although it is not a secret, I think.

Ukrainians living in the western region are not standing apart of the nation, but are actually something like Piemont was in Italy - it unites Ukrainians together. On the other hand, the most pure version of Ukrainian language is considered to come from Poltava region which is in eastern part of Ukraine.

Sasha as always tries to bring the stench from Russian steppes which he enjoys to breathe in, but that's ok, what else he can do? ;) I wish he could expand more on his Asiatic roots instead of explaining who is who in blind lies.
Ironside 49 | 10,010
30 Jun 2009 #83
On the other hand, the most pure version of Ukrainian language is considered to come from Poltava region which is in eastern part of Ukraine.

hhaha reality bites Nathan my boy!
thats it is what I'm saying from the beginning you are not Piedmont but lost sheep, stop that nonsense and everything will be fine...
Sasha 2 | 1,083
30 Jun 2009 #84
Mmm... it gets stinky... what's happened? Oh I see now.. Mr. Hatemonger, Vseja Ukraine as large as life. :) Should I say "welcome again to the tiny world of Tolik's inferiority complex"? :))

obody says Russians are actually Mongoloid nation with Ugro-Finnish condiments here, although it is not a secret, I think.

ROFL :))) Another piece of anger/stupidity from Nat. Pls add to quote of the day. Keep it up! :)

Tolia, if I had so many "secrets" left to be revealed as you do, I would start "revealing" it right away not to end up in total ignorance. Read books... you know... maybe go to psychologist... this should do you good!

Btw I guess everybody is alright with you being a bit Asiatic. At least I personally don't treat you as subhumans for that only reason. Chin up! ;)
WhiteGoddess
1 Aug 2009 #85
Poland's ancestry, from the 4th century on, is Slavic. Slavics are an indo-European group (meaning white, no Asian). So sorry to disappoint anyone who wants to have a little Mongoloid ancestry but the vast majority of Poles do not. The very few Mongols who were left in the area now known as Poland before the 4th century were absorbed into the Slavic population. Modern Poles are Slavic and only Slavic; therefore, white. And the same for Ukrainians. No Mongoloid. The Finnish and Swedish, however, do have some with significant admixture.

Remember if you see a person in Europe who appears to be something other than white, perhaps they are not ethnic European. Perhaps they or recent generations are from elsewhere. The vast, vast majority of Europeans are ethnic Europeans even if you really try to be something other than just plain old white.

Revision:

NOT ALL SWEDES AND FINNS HAVE MONGOLOID ADMIXTURE! Just a very small group.

You could see the same in the United States. It's a white majority but there are bi-racial blacks there as well.

That doesn't mean they mixed with them. An invasion doesn't equal a beautifully mixed society. Usually an invasion means turmoil.
chauduyphanvu
2 Aug 2009 #86
I wouldn't say that some Poles might have Mongolian ancestry but I would say that some Poles might have Mongolian physical characteristics due to the invasions led by Genghis Khan and his sons into Eastern Europe and Poland - and no one would ever know if the soldiers married some of the original Poles and have children.
PlasticPole 7 | 2,649
2 Aug 2009 #87
You could see the same in the United States. It's a white majority but there are bi-racial blacks there as well.

It's a myth that different races who live together and invade one another do not create offspring. It always happens. Look at all the bi-racial people over here. We aren't the only ones, either. It was just recently that military personnel were forbidden from creating bi-racial kids in countries they invaded.
WhiteGoddess
4 Aug 2009 #88
Yes, but the Mongols were gone from the area now known as Poland before the Slavs set in. So if there was mixing, it was not with Slavs because they were not in the area at the time. After the Mongols left the area, the Slavs settled there. Slavs are an indo-European group, therefore, fully white. So as much as modern Poles or Ukrainians may WANT, WISH and HOPE to have Mongolian ancestry, they don't. They're just "plain, old" white folks. :)
Sasha 2 | 1,083
4 Aug 2009 #89
WhiteGoddess

I like reading your unscientific fiction. Keep it up! :)
gumishu 11 | 5,066
4 Aug 2009 #90
Yes, but the Mongols were gone from the area now known as Poland before the Slavs set in.

wrong

first of all Mongol (sensu-stricte) raids on Poland (or say a Mongol raid on Poland) happened in 1249 (siege of Kraków, battle of Legnica)

then elements of Mongol tribes (not only mongol but also Turkic) settled in Crimea (other post Mongol statehoods were for example Golden Horde in the lower run of Volga)

there were multiple raids by Crimean Tatars (of at least partial Mongol origin) on the lands of Polish Kingdom and Grand Duchy of Lithuania the last significant during the Cossack wars (1640's 50's) or maybe the Transsylvanian invasion of Rakocsy

Tatar raids were mainly to plunder and take slaves which were later sold into Ottoman Empire

even before the Mongols sensu stricte arrived in Europe there were peoples of mongoloid features who definitely had some contact (invaded, lived among) Slavic peoples - these were first Huns then the Avars - it is even thought that Avars promoted settlement of Slavic people further and further south (colonization of the Balkans) - Poland and Czechoslovak lands and perhaps Pannonia were already colonized by Slavic people by the time Avars arrived there. Avars settled mostly on Pannonian plains and they somehow created a mixed Avaro-Slavic statehood but it is quite easily imagined that they performed raids to the lands north of the Carpathians were the ancestors of Polish tribes lived

so there were multiple instances some genetic mongoloid features could enter into Polish society


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