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Why do you visit Poland?


Paulwiz 1 | 32
9 Feb 2020 #181
Thank you Atch! Thank you gumishu! Good feedback.
mafketis 23 | 7,827
9 Feb 2020 #182
Are there any historical sites or museums I should visit near Płock?

Go to Płock! One of my favorite places in Poland! Great views of the Wisła (Vistula) lots of interesting old PRL architecture (last time I was there) and...

I'm not religious but Płock is the site of a couple of the more uplifting and bizarre manifestations of Polish catholicism in the late 19th and early 20th centuries....

One branch of my favorite heretical strain of Roman Catholicism is in Płock! The Marjawici (Mariavites).

Now there are two branches, the one close to the river has an interesting church built in a very non-Polish style, there's little difference between them and mainstream RC nowadays but still interesting especially if

The more interesting (and radical) branch is neaby in the countryside in Felicjanów. They had female priests, married priests, didn't take collections (the church should support itself and not leech off the population). They were all ex-communicated (possibly after a RC mole wrote a series of sensationalized articles on them).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariavite_Church

Płock is also where Jesus appeared to St. Faustyna

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faustina_Kowalska#P%C5%82ock_and_the_image_of_Divine_Mercy
Paulwiz 1 | 32
9 Feb 2020 #183
Thanks mafketis! I am glad to hear that Płock will be a good place to visit with things to do if I need a break from the genealogy search.

Guess I'm naive but, based on my reading, I would not have expected to hear of Polish religious heretics. I would have put them in the same category as Latin American bobsled racers. It will be interesting to read about their beliefs.

Thanks again all! Enlightening information! Much appreciated.
Lyzko 25 | 7,512
9 Feb 2020 #184
How here's the big question: Was Kopernikus aka Kopernigk, aka Copernicus Polish or German?
After all, his home town is known by two official names, Torun or Thorn:-)

@To All:

Wife and I are planning a long-overdue trip to Europe some time next year. Stop No. 2 will include Poland!
(Famous last words...from our lips to G-d's earLOL)
gumishu 11 | 5,127
9 Feb 2020 #185
How here's the big question: Was Kopernikus aka Kopernigk, aka Copernicus Polish or German?

what I know his mother was German - also there is no record of him writing anything in Polish (but Polish writing system hasn't been established by then if I recall correctly) - the city of Toruń was founded by the Teutonic Order if I recall correctly and the Knights attracted German settlers to their towns and cities (although the land Toruń was founded in was inhabited by Poles - even at the end of the World War 1 the majority of the area of Toruń was Polish from what I can gather) - Copernicus also belonged to the German fraternity when he studied in Italy

as for his Polishness - Polish sources claim that his father was Polish originating in Kraków - Kopernik looks like a Polish surname with roots in the German word for copper though - nik is a Slavic ending

i guess Copernicus understood (and probably spoke) Polish but probably identified as German
Paulwiz 1 | 32
9 Feb 2020 #186
In the US we take a national census every 10 years. The records can help with genealogy, even though they aren't public for 72 years. Some members of my family have census records where they list their country of origin differently every 10 years. I was pretty frustrated at first. But as I read the history of the area it is entirely possible they were all telling the truth and all accurate. It depends on how the question was worded. "What country were you born in?" might have a different answer than "What country is your home town in?"

The stuff I see about Copernicus refers to Poland. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
kaprys 2 | 2,124
9 Feb 2020 #187
@gumishu
At the same time he never studied at a German university -just Polish and Italian. And he took part in defence against the Teutons. In Frombork probably?

Toruń belonged to Poland despite a large German speaking community.
gumishu 11 | 5,127
9 Feb 2020 #188
And he took part in defence against the Teutons. In Frombork probably?

he commanded the defense of Olsztyn in the 1520 Polish-Teutonic order war - the thing is that the cities (with large German populations)(and not only the cities but also the gentry) of the lands later called Royal Prussia rebelled against the Teutonic Order long before (during the 13 year war that ended in 1453 or so) and chose to join the Polish kingdom with a lot of self-goverment though

Toruń belonged to Poland despite a large German speaking community.

not before the end of the 13 year war and the Toruń peace
kaprys 2 | 2,124
10 Feb 2020 #189
So when Kopernik was born, Toruń belonged to Poland.
The idea of nationality was kind of vague back then afaik.
Ziemowit 13 | 3,798
10 Feb 2020 #190
nationality

I think we are talking about his ethnicity here. It is worth noting that terms like 'nationality' are differently understood today in Poland and in Western Europe. 'Nationality' in the West is what we see as 'citizenship' in Poland. Our 'nationality', in turn, is what they see as 'ethnicity'. So the question is: was Copernicus ethically German as there is no doubt that he was, felt and he acted as a true citizen of Poland.

First, there was no such thing as 'Germany' in his time. Obviously, there was the Holy Roman Empire, but that wasn't exactly the same as 'Germany'. Second, the Teutonic Order was a unit of international nature with, yes, the majority of knights being of German origin. Third, the concept of a national state would look strange in the times of Copernicus (neither Poland nor Germany nor the Teutonic Order were national states at that time) as this concept is only a 19th century invention. You people seem to apply modern concepts to former times whereas the people of those former times did not see things and did not define themselves through these modern terms.

We can only and safely say that Copernicus was born 'Polish citizen' and bore allegiance to the Polish Crown which in modern terms would mean he had a Polish citizenship and held a Polish passport :-).

At the same time he never studied at a German university -just Polish and Italian

That's irrelevant. Latin was the language of universites at that time rather than German, Polish or Italian. Universities were in towns, so to speak, rather than in states.

Copernicus also belonged to the German fraternity when he studied in Italy

For me, this is something talking in favor for his German ethnicity. Do you know if he had left behind any texts (letters, for example) written in German beside his well-known works in Latin?
Lyzko 25 | 7,512
10 Feb 2020 #191
Thanks to gumishu and kaprys.
kaprys 2 | 2,124
10 Feb 2020 #192
@Ziemowit
I've know that Latin was used then. Duh. By why choose a Polish university if you don't consider yourself Polish?

*I know

Unless there were no 'German' universities that would equal the one in Kraków.

What do you guys think?
Atch 17 | 3,086
10 Feb 2020 #193
why choose a Polish university if you don't consider yourself Polish?

I don't think he would choose the university on that basis. It's more likely he would choose his centre of study based on its reputation, the particular teachers under whom he might have wanted to study, whether it contained a circle of like minded people etc.


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