Elon Musk tells Germans to "move on"!

In an impromptu address to the Federal Republic,
and on the 80th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz/Oswiecim no less,
Trump's new appointee exhorts the German people to move on from their
eternal "guilt" and essentially put the Nazi Era in the past...for good.

What shameless, indeed brazen, audacity!! Then again, no more shamelessly or
brazenly audacious than the President himself, moreover, a white South African
coming from a history of apartheid.

How long should Germans feel guilty?

A number of years, not an essay, please...

I always wondered about that.....it's nothing wrong with "never forgetting", but most people seem only be concerned with our history till '45....totally "forgetting" our history which ended '89.

All that "never again" still happened nearly as a true copy (without the death camps mind you) in one half of the country for decades afterwards, only then called "socialism". All that one-party-dictatorship with the military parades, the kids in uniform and streamlined one-opinion-media, with a populace 99% pro-gov (or else!)...quietly, disturbingly ignored!

But it's the war and death camps that make the difference. The world wouldn't be stuck in horror if it wasn't for those.

Yes, there is. The message was internalized as "never forget what was done to the Jews" rather than "we should do everything we can to prevent more genocide"

The holocaust wasn't the last genocide by any means but the western world doesn't much mind if it's not Jews.... (Rwanda, Darfur, Yazidis, Uyghurs to start with and I'm probably missing a few, I don't count Gaza, that's a military conflict where one side has a lot more firepower than the other with predictably awful results and not primarily a government on civilian operation).

Expecting Germans to feel guilty till the end of time is extremely dysfunctional. It's something terrible that happened in the past that should be remembered but not fetishized.

Yes.

Remembered not agonised over. The message is above all that they should not be nationalistic or a monoculture.

That's fetishizing it.... the message is that a sane society can descend into madness.... and some degree of nationalism is required for a country to exist - no nationalism means no country

They have every right to be monoculture if it doesn't include genocide.


I would say patriotism.

No large affluent and cool/fertile country does any more. We trashed the world, more and more is becoming hard to live in, and we in richer countries (I'd include Poland) kept all the resources rather than develop the economies of places that the migrants have to leave.

patriotism is a manifestation of nationalism, not a separate phenomenon....


first, most of them don't _have_ to leave
second, the failure of failed countries is at least 80% due to the local culture and its values (traditionalism, clannishness foremost among them).

I would say patriotism.
To me it's the extreme side of a spectrum. With no loyalty to your country on one end and nationalism on the other. Both bad.


While there is part of truth in it there is also responsibility on those places side.

.....that brings me back to my absolutely unnecessary lament earlier....the east german dictatorship from '49 to '89 was very nationalistic....we were big on flag-waving and glorifying hymn, adoring poetry and everything, after all there war nothing else to keep the people together, also something nobody seemingly took/takes offence with, surely didn't put it into one direct line with the Holocaust and the Death Camps, I guess.

But maybe one reason why the AfD finds it more easier in the eastern half of the country, today.

The poorest places? If they could get their acts together so easily, we'd not be in this mess. The Calvinistic approach, that it's 'bad choices' or their own fault is naive. The richest places? Give a donation from the aid budget and do it the next year without end or change. While simultaneously fighting all attempts by poorer states to have a more equitable economic system.

Sadly we let this happen. Time to sequester all the financial resources hoarded by billionaires and/anyone with over a few million in assets, (they can always get warehouse jobs or maybe some online work) and use it to reduce the inequality that causes the situation now, That and mitigate climate change.

It's probably too late for both though.

True, but it's like with people. You can help to an extend but at some point they have to get a grip.


And letting their citizens just go in droves will accomplish what?


Why should they?
While I'm all for reducing the gap just taking the wealth accomplishes nnothing.You need to invest in education and changing of lifestyles to make sure new generation have better prospects.

It is a prime example of a common misunderstanding of politics and propaganda by the people.
As well as an even greater ignorance when it comes to facts.
Let's sum it all up:
Germans never felt guilty, they were proud of their WWII heroes, this guilt strand started in west Germany in the 60s', but it was mostly a harmless rebellion of left-wing youngsters against the older generation and German traditions. No Nazi was harmed during that spree. lol! (almost)
Since then Germans developed a nice tool of propaganda in politics. Their so-called guilt and their fake expiations.
There comes a main point-they sued that point to show a moral superiority, claiming we have dealt with our past evil well, we are champions of apology and atonement, what about YOU?
So, the question is Musk aware of the reality? Is he calling for Germany to stop their hypocrisy and fake moral superiority or is he simply a gullible person who bought that German guilt issue, hook, and sinker?
Who knows?

There is alot of truth innit!


Frankly I think he doesn't know much about that....and how could he, a south african inventor and developer come tech mogul....

There's no evidence whatsoever that large scale migration from predominantly muslim countries to Europe benefits anyone... the migrants are net drags on the economy (and do not improve in the second or third generation) and the migrants themselves get trapped intergenerational welfare dependence and are overrrepresented in petty crime (and not so petty crime).

The results are in, there's no need to continue the experiment.

I agree; I'd add though that a significant chunk of any town's, county's and country's population needs a bit or a lot of help doing that and even in the best societies and even families plenty fall through the net.

People in the poorest and least empowered places in the world need more help than most.


It's not about anccomlishi anything, except alleviating poverty. Something we have failed to do.


It's what I've said and the Labour Movement have said for a very long time. Unfortunately there's little to invest since the obscenely rich hoard it and the bourgeoisie hang on to it and are good at getting what they want

One reason to give the rich a bloody good haircut. Elon Musk could lose 99% of his assets and still be obscenely rich. It wouldn't hurt him but it would change the lives of millions and help make the world a better place for all of us.


You are sounding as though there's some sort of choice other than small cosmetic changes, like bowls and tea cups catching the drips from a 150 year old and very leaky roof.

That roof is modern capitalism, those drips are coming from the parts of the world that lost out to its greed.

The third world is full of greed.... greed is not a sin of the rich, but of humanity. Trying to change human nature has ended well approximately never times.

Capitalism, for all its flaws, works better with human nature to raise living standards than any other system tried.

The problem of a lot of the countries isn't capitalist predation but oligarchical protectionism or clan/tribe based patronage and corruption (and weak nationalism where 'society' is something you try to exploit and rob).

Thing is....when has to take the wealth from the rich EVER made the world better?

We have now some experience with that vision...it never ended well. Maybe it's time to accept that people, economies don't work that way!

@Bratwurst Boy
The post war industrial world limited the ability of oligarchs to accumulate disproportionally vast wealth that world is now seen as a golden age.

The right forced deregulation and offshoring resulting in a much more precarious standard of living for the overwhelming majority of people while some got hyper rich.
The right are now calling for a reversal of the so called free trade they championed cos it doesnt work. This about face is matched by their championing of free speech something the right has always opposed.

Removing the ability of oligarchs to amass ridiculous and disproportionate wealth is a good thing and is not a smash and grab as painted by shills for billionaires.

@Barney

Who do you think should do that? How should that work?

The moment one gov leader makes moves to restrain that wealth the holder of said wealth just moves to another country....and takes his industry, his patents, his tech with him. Leaving only unemployed and poorer people behind.

Could you clarify?
If you mean that Germany is a champion of fake apologies and atonement - yes you are right.
If you mean that Germans are champions of apologies and atonement - no, not true.--
sincerity, values, and merit matter in our civilization.
----
By the way, mass migration is not good for anyone. Lest for those who are a subject and target of such migrations.
We can see it in front of our eyes it doesn't work, We can learn from history, the Roman Empire tried to solve its deputation problem by introducing mass migration and the result was the fall of the West Roman Empire and the decline everywhere.
---

Ah, maybe he is saying it in the context of mass migration and encourages a decisive solution to that problem.
That would make sense in the face of the US immigration policy.

I doubt that actual Germans can truly apologize, they have done nothing wrong. Everything we do and say has to be fake, its the nature of the things. I think there are a few true responsible people still alive....but most are no longer!

One actual example....recently Robert Habeck, the leader of the german Greens posted on X a video with him seen walking through Auschwitz....he took part in the memorial ceremony for the 80th anniversary of the Liberation. Of course he showed atonement, his great-grandfather was a convicted Obersturmführer in the SA.

x.com/roberthabeck/status/1883957857495953822

So....tell me Iron....will he truly ever be in the right position to apologize for the deeds of his great-grandfather? And....would you ever believe him? Even knowing it has to be fake?

On the other hand, he can't do nothing, can't he? A german politician ignoring that place, that date....how would you react? Would you accept that?

And the first world isn't?

The difference is that the poorest couple of billion people don't get the chance to do it very well.


And people are raising hell against migration in that system.. That's the thing; capitalism has given us this and can't now stop it.


In the U.K., after 1945 under both Labour and Tory governments, we has 90% tax on unearned income. Hard for elderly, nicely-born spinsters on a small annuity however for the overwhelming majority, we saw a huge raise in living standards over the decade and, huge improvements in health and massive industrial development.

Better that than some laissez-faire free for all where the few make off with the booty at the expense of the rest of us.


Not take. Take back.

Now that is not that radical, I think....in german we call it "Erbschaftssteuer" (Inheritence tax), and it is widely accepted, even by the rich!

I see I need to clarify a few issues myself.
primo I wonder what Musk had in mind when he said what he said. - Sorted - in my opinion, encouraging Germany to take measures against mass immigration without looking at the so-called world's opinion.
secundo I took a dig at ignorant people yapping about German guilt whilst they know nothing besides some biased stuff about the subject.
IF you ASK for my opinion.
It is simple, I don't need some progeny of NAZI a-hole pretend to be sorry and apologise all the F time.
I don't care about it.
what I want is for the German state to stop using this apology moral blackmail to F with my country, rather they should consider paying up for the damage they had done.
To make it even more clear I don't think children should answer for crimes of their parents that Judaism not Christianity or common sense
However, damage was done to the official order and policies of the German state and as such we are owned reparations.
If anything is unclear - ask.
---

I mean, that is up to them, I do not care, really.

That's only one theory, regarding why the Western Empire collapsed. It's not even the most popular one.

The Eastern Empire continued to receive huge amounts of people, especially from the Slavic world, and somehow managed to last until the 1450s.

I would argue demographic collapse poses a much larger threat, than immigration ever could. In East Asia, in the early 1990s, there were ten working age people for every retiree. By 2060, this proportion is set to change to a 1:1. The World Bank and IMF, project that productivity growth has to be double of what it is right now - for countries like Japan and Germany to maintain their current living standards.

Who's gonna care about immigrants, when a grandson hates his grandpa's guts for the mere fact of existing? Any fellow young person from Nigeria or Syria, will be an ally in relieving the burden that old farts generate on the system.

In Britain, already, no white person wants to take care of his stinky and bedridden parents or grandparents. Instead, nurses from Jamaica and Pakistan take care of all the old white people nobody cares about. Imagine how the picture will look when there are as many, or even more, old people as there are young people?

Only one thing can save us all from this impending collapse, and that's the rise of some superintelligence which will make work unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of people, while simultaneously resolving resource scarcity.

If AI takes care of all the work, maybe we can learn to live in a world of old farts. However, if people will still actually have to work, and pay taxes into large welfare systems that support non-working people - then we are well and truly F*CKED.

So I'm pro-immigration, because numbers give power, numbers generate wealth, numbers provide vitality.

Russia - my home country - has too small a population for its size. Instead of 150 million people, we should have at least 400 million. But because Russians refuse to start families, and refuse to have babies, the only way we're gonna get there is opening the gates to Central Asia, Africa, and the Subcontinent.

Refreshing! :)

But alot more people do....and not apologizing/atoning enough is easily seen and called as "Nazi" and can negatively influencing a political career, national and international.

It is what it is and neither of us will change it in the near future! *shrugs*

Till tomorrow all *waves*

I have a better proposal. Withdraw to Asia and leave Europe to the Europeans.