The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered [1]  |  Archives [1] 
 
Witamy, Guest  |  Members
Home / Language15

"Czarny" vs. "Czerny", vs. "Charni" vs. "Cherni", etc.


Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #1

What are the differences, or are they just variant spellings of the same Polish word in the end?

e.g., "Czarniecki" vs. "Czerniecki" (although it was originally "Chernetski", "Chernetzky", "Zernetzky", etc. in our case. Still, we changed it to "Czerniecki" when we Polonized it, and then changed the "e" to an "a" when we tried to pose as Poles).

Chemikiem Activity: 4 / 787
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #2

Czerny is a Polish surname which along with it's variants, is also common in other Slavic languages. As with Czarny, it means black.
Chani and Cherni appear to me to be attempts at spelling Czarny and Czerny to someone unfamiliar with Polish/Slavic languages.
Names were commonly butchered when Polish immigrants arrived in the US as I'm sure you know.
OP Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #3

Thank you so much for your answer. By the way, as I said, our case was that it was originally "Chernetski", "Chernetzky", "Zernetzky", etc.. Still, we changed it to "Czerniecki" when we Polonized it, and then changed the "e" to an "a" when we tried to pose as Poles. Also, as Dr. Dara Horn notes, immigrants generated their own name identifications:

True, European Jewish immigrants did have to render their names into Latin or Cyrillic letters..., and yes, passports were sometimes forged-but those...changes would have been generated by the immigrants themselves. It is also true that many immigrants chose new names for themselves..., whether for expediency or to avoid discrimination.

mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2014/01/jewish-surnames-supposedly-explained

PS Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #4

"Czerny" as in the once famous composer of piano exercises Karl Czerny, known to untold generations of music students, is listed in Groves' Dictionary of Music as an Austrian pianist and teacher of Hungarian extraction:-)

Perhaps his forebearers were originally Polish?
OP Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #5

Apparently (as someone else posted on here), they were Czech. Mine were and are Jewish.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #6

Possibly, although there has never been reason so assert that Karl Czerny was Jewish:-)

Just consulted Groves' Dictionary on line and sure enough, I must have misread the site (either that or it was previously in error, both more than likely), but it clearly states "Austrian pianist and musician of Czech origin."

))
OP Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #7

As far as I know, I'm not related to related to Karl Czerny. Meanwhile, the OP in another thread did say that he or she is a distant cousin of Karl Czerny.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #8

Unless the family name might have been changed to "Czerny" from something else, the family name "Czerny" itself, is NOT Jewish:-) "CzernOWITZ" for instance, might well indeed be of Jewish lineage, though once more, even "-OWITZ" is not always an indication of Jewish origin. To be sure, "-WITZ" is in fact often of German/Prussian origin!
Ironside Activity: 42 / 7,680
Joined: 26 Feb 2009 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #9

Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?

They don't. Czarny means Black in Polish. Czerny sounds like an archaic version of the same world. It could be still in use in few neighbouring languages

, the family name "Czerny" itself, is NOT Jewish

Right! I think you're wasting your typing power on Nicki.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #10

"Chiyerni" could sound Russian, actually, or Ukrainian with it's drawled "yiie-sound". Standard Polish vowels are always shorter and more clipped.
Chemikiem Activity: 4 / 787
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #11

Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?

Czerny means black in other Slavic languages including Czech, although the spelling differs. I am guessing that at some point the name was incorporated into Polish language, but as Ironside pointed out, Czarny is Polish for black.
OP Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
31 Oct 2016  #12

To be sure, "-WITZ" is in fact often of German/Prussian origin!

I know that; and actually, on another note, my "Daniłowicz" and "Andrulewicz" ancestors were Jewish (Actually, as I am related to Kirk Douglas :-(. I feel bad that another side of that family wreaked havoc on Natalie Wood and Jean Spangler.)
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
31 Oct 2016  #13

Was that last line some sort of pun on the last name "Havoc" aka the well-known actress "June HaVOC" (nee "Hovick")?

:-))
OP Nickidewbear Activity: 20 / 524
Joined: 17 Sep 2009 ♀
 
1 Nov 2016  #14

I don't think so. Did I spell "havoc" wrong? You made the pun, though. I missed the pun.
Lyzko Activity: 11 / 2,424
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 ♂
 
1 Nov 2016  #15

Stuff and nonsense, don't give it a second thought!

You wrought havoc on my word playLOL



Home / Language /
"Czarny" vs. "Czerny", vs. "Charni" vs. "Cherni", etc.
Bold Italic [quote]
Click this icon to move up back to the quoted message. Polish letters:
 
To post as guest, enter a temporary and unique username or login and post as a member.