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"Czarny" vs. "Czerny", vs. "Charni" vs. "Cherni", etc.



Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
31 Oct 2016  #1

What are the differences, or are they just variant spellings of the same Polish word in the end?

e.g., "Czarniecki" vs. "Czerniecki" (although it was originally "Chernetski", "Chernetzky", "Zernetzky", etc. in our case. Still, we changed it to "Czerniecki" when we Polonized it, and then changed the "e" to an "a" when we tried to pose as Poles).


Chemikiem 4 | 886    
31 Oct 2016  #2

Czerny is a Polish surname which along with it's variants, is also common in other Slavic languages. As with Czarny, it means black.
Chani and Cherni appear to me to be attempts at spelling Czarny and Czerny to someone unfamiliar with Polish/Slavic languages.
Names were commonly butchered when Polish immigrants arrived in the US as I'm sure you know.
OP Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
31 Oct 2016  #3

Thank you so much for your answer. By the way, as I said, our case was that it was originally "Chernetski", "Chernetzky", "Zernetzky", etc.. Still, we changed it to "Czerniecki" when we Polonized it, and then changed the "e" to an "a" when we tried to pose as Poles. Also, as Dr. Dara Horn notes, immigrants generated their own name identifications:

True, European Jewish immigrants did have to render their names into Latin or Cyrillic letters..., and yes, passports were sometimes forged-but those...changes would have been generated by the immigrants themselves. It is also true that many immigrants chose new names for themselves..., whether for expediency or to avoid discrimination.

mosaicmagazine.com/observation/2014/01/jewish-surnames-supposedly-explained

PS Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
31 Oct 2016  #4

"Czerny" as in the once famous composer of piano exercises Karl Czerny, known to untold generations of music students, is listed in Groves' Dictionary of Music as an Austrian pianist and teacher of Hungarian extraction:-)

Perhaps his forebearers were originally Polish?
OP Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
31 Oct 2016  #5

Apparently (as someone else posted on here), they were Czech. Mine were and are Jewish.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
31 Oct 2016  #6

Possibly, although there has never been reason so assert that Karl Czerny was Jewish:-)

Just consulted Groves' Dictionary on line and sure enough, I must have misread the site (either that or it was previously in error, both more than likely), but it clearly states "Austrian pianist and musician of Czech origin."

))
OP Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
31 Oct 2016  #7

As far as I know, I'm not related to related to Karl Czerny. Meanwhile, the OP in another thread did say that he or she is a distant cousin of Karl Czerny.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
31 Oct 2016  #8

Unless the family name might have been changed to "Czerny" from something else, the family name "Czerny" itself, is NOT Jewish:-) "CzernOWITZ" for instance, might well indeed be of Jewish lineage, though once more, even "-OWITZ" is not always an indication of Jewish origin. To be sure, "-WITZ" is in fact often of German/Prussian origin!
Ironside 43 | 7,944    
31 Oct 2016  #9

Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?

They don't. Czarny means Black in Polish. Czerny sounds like an archaic version of the same world. It could be still in use in few neighbouring languages

, the family name "Czerny" itself, is NOT Jewish

Right! I think you're wasting your typing power on Nicki.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
31 Oct 2016  #10

"Chiyerni" could sound Russian, actually, or Ukrainian with it's drawled "yiie-sound". Standard Polish vowels are always shorter and more clipped.
Chemikiem 4 | 886    
31 Oct 2016  #11

Why do both "Czarny" and "Czerny" exist for "Black" in Polish?

Czerny means black in other Slavic languages including Czech, although the spelling differs. I am guessing that at some point the name was incorporated into Polish language, but as Ironside pointed out, Czarny is Polish for black.
OP Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
31 Oct 2016  #12

To be sure, "-WITZ" is in fact often of German/Prussian origin!

I know that; and actually, on another note, my "Daniłowicz" and "Andrulewicz" ancestors were Jewish (Actually, as I am related to Kirk Douglas :-(. I feel bad that another side of that family wreaked havoc on Natalie Wood and Jean Spangler.)
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
31 Oct 2016  #13

Was that last line some sort of pun on the last name "Havoc" aka the well-known actress "June HaVOC" (nee "Hovick")?

:-))
OP Nickidewbear 20 | 523    
1 Nov 2016  #14

I don't think so. Did I spell "havoc" wrong? You made the pun, though. I missed the pun.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
1 Nov 2016  #15

Stuff and nonsense, don't give it a second thought!

You wrought havoc on my word playLOL



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