The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / News  % width posts: 219

RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...


wildrover 98 | 4,451
28 Apr 2010 #1
I read to day that the Russian president has ordered that all the files relating to the killing of some 2200 Polish officers in the forests of Katyn be made public....

I am sure there will be some who will consider this as some kind of sneaky Russian trick , but it seems to me they really do want to have a better relationship with Poland , and realise that this issue needs to be brought out in the open in order for wounds to heal...

The Katyn files have up to now only been available only to specialist researchers , this is a brave move from the Russian president , i hope it will be well recieved in Poland....
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
28 Apr 2010 #2
I'm sure it'll be well received by why is it "brave"? About 70 years late but...

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8648275.stm

Russia publishes Katyn massacre archives

Russian and Polish leaders recently marked Katyn together for the first time
Russia has published previously secret documents on the 1940 Katyn massacre, in which some 22,000 Polish officers were killed by Soviet forces.
OP wildrover 98 | 4,451
28 Apr 2010 #3
why is it "brave"?

Just my opinion....and yes , its 70 years late , but the communist system was full of lies , even to their own people , so its no suprise they denied the murder of prisoners of war...
RADO - | 12
28 Apr 2010 #4
why is it "brave"

Skysoulmate,

to understand why it's brave, take in account that Russian society is still strongly divided between people who condemn communism and its legacy, and those who still think it was something glorious and marvelous. All issues related to the communist past carry very high emotional charge in Russia, and their mishandling can lead to major troubles like civil unrest or even a civil war. As a country leader, no matter what you think personally, you must take this danger in account. This is why the acknowledgment of true history will take a long time in Russia, probably after the majority of the Soviet-born generation is gone. And this is why this is an act of courage - neo-communists will not forgive him, and they are still strong.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
28 Apr 2010 #5
It is more of a significant step because it moves Russia one step closer towards 2 classic tenets of democracy, namely transparency and access to information. America is moving the other way by classifying many documents in the name of national security or public secrets etc. It is a nice gesture by the Russians.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #6
I wonder how many of the old veterans marching in the victory parade every 9th May are war criminals, maybe even were there in Katyn or raping their way till Berlin...
gjene 14 | 200
28 Apr 2010 #7
From what my relatives are finally and slowly telling me about my grandfather and his military service was that the unit that he was with, he may have been in the vicinity of where the Katyn Massacre happened. My grandfather and a brother of his served in the Polish Armed Forces.

But right now I am still having problems in obtaining his military records.
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #8
I'm sure it'll be well received by why is it "brave"?

It is not brave at all - and nothing new . Copies of all these documents were sent by Pres. Yeltsin to Polish officials in early 90-th.

But for unclear reason these docs were "closed" again in Russian archives. The catastrophy with Polish President put publisc attention to this problem - and now Russian public opinion is on Polish side...

I wonder how many of the old veterans marching in the victory parade every 9th May are war criminals, maybe even were there in Katyn or raping their way till Berlin...

There are not criminals - they are true heroes and winners. Criminals - forever - are those who lost WWII.
convex 20 | 3,978
28 Apr 2010 #9
There are not criminals - they are true heroes and winners. Criminals - forever - are those who lost WWII.

Like the Russians in Afghanistan?
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #10
No, it's quite different - they fight for our country and won. If necessary we will repeat.

Russians in Afghanistan were the same like Americans in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan. All these are just local wars - part of a big political game with local people lives. Yes, all these are crimes.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
28 Apr 2010 #11
Here is some read on the issue.

Russia's federal archive agency will provide access to digital copies of documents on the Katyn massacre to end speculations about their authenticity, the agency's chief said on Wednesday.......
..."[They] say it's a fake, these documents were fabricated on someone's order and that there was no [Soviet] execution of Polish officers in Katyn, that Germans did it," he said.

Thousands of officers, police and civilians taken prisoner during the 1939 partitioning of Poland by the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were killed by the NKVD in the Katyn forest near the western Russian city of Smolensk. The Soviet Union tried to blame the massacre on Nazi Germany, saying the killings took place in 1941, when the territory was in German hands.

"It contained a note by NKVD head [Lavrentiy] Beria dated March 1940, with a proposal to eliminate captured Polish officers. The note has authentic resolutions by [Joseph] Stalin and a number of other Politburo members: [Kliment] Voroshilov, [Vyacheslav] Molotov, [Anastas] Mikoyan. That envelope also contains a Politburo resolution, dated March 5, 1940, which expresses support for Beria's proposal to shoot the Polish officers," Artizov said.

and nothing new . Copies of all these documents were sent by Pres. Yeltsin to Polish officials in early 90-th.

"Katyn archives are actually open, but there are several documents that we have not given to our Polish partners," Medvedev said

en.rian.ru/russia/20100428/158786985.html

I wonder how many of the old veterans marching in the victory parade every 9th May are war criminals, maybe even were there in Katyn or raping their way till Berlin...

Little or nothing. Just the evil is more striking... and journalists keep the high-profile of it. That what journalism is about.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,542
28 Apr 2010 #12
This is really quite positive, I wonder when Olga comes here and seeks us to inform that all this is a plot for the Russians to take over ;)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #13
There are not criminals - they are true heroes and winners. Criminals - forever - are those who lost WWII.

How do you know? Where there any trials? Ever?

Little or nothing.

How do you know?

Were war criminals, murderer and rapists ever punished?
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #14
How do you know? Where there any trials? Ever?

I know. Open a trial if you wish - otherwise your opinion doesn't matter.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #15
My opinion?

That isn't a matter of opinion...aren't you yourself not interested in finding out and punishing war criminals?

But then...most of your people were also murdered by your own people, not the Nazis, it must be hard for a Russian to accept that and ignoring that past and denying that must be much easier.

You are good at that!

How many of those still marching stalinist veterans had been in the murdereous NKVD? The plague of your own people for much longer than the the war and the Nazis existed!

You think you won? For Germany it was over '45, you got 50 more years of oppression, secret police and Gulags...
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #16
That isn't a matter of opinion...aren't you yourself not interested in finding out and punishing war criminals?

And who are war criminals? Was there any trial?

They won war. Losers can call them "criminals" - I can understand it but it doesn't matter.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #17
They won war. Losers can call them "criminals" - I can understand it but it doesn't matter.

Well, you are right...as long as your people don't start yourself nobody can help you...
You have to live with it, not us! After all they oppressed and killed their own people more than any other...*shrugs*

PS: You would probably call the victims of Stalin's russian "Katyn" losers too... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

Losers, yes?
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #18
nobody can help you...

OK - we don't ask for your help.

It is our history and we can't change it. The problem was who was more evil - and in that period of time even Stalin was better than Hitler.
crusader 1 | 40
28 Apr 2010 #19
Here is some read on the issue

Thank you for the link, very interesting. As other people here have said, it's about 70 years late, but better late than never, I suppose.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #20
The problem was who was more evil - and in that period of time even Stalin was better than Hitler.

At least he didn't concentrate on killing his own people..
Sasha 2 | 1,083
28 Apr 2010 #21
Were war criminals, murderer and rapists ever punished?

That might sound cynical but it's a saying... victors are not judged. After all nobody made fascists (except for Mr. Schicklgruber) come to our land, mass murder people, rape women etc. Another principal is what goes around comes around. One could say "you deserve it" although I'm not a fan of such harsh rhetoric.

Open a trial if you wish - otherwise your opinion doesn't matter.

And yes... it's a nice suggestion. If you want a trial go for it but be aware it may turn out you'll have to prosecute mostly your own Opa's in Germany and in the US (where mass of them fled to right after the war).

If you want to know my opinion then I don't see any sense in raking the dust and aches of the past (to say nothing of that it's barely possible after 70 years). We forgave you. The Russians don't have any grudge against you. Isn't it a proper time to stop raking?

At least he didn't concentrate on killing his own people..

Agree but that doesn't make your position firmer.

Crusader, yeah, I was eagerly waiting for that particularly in the light of recent events.
TheOther 5 | 3,836
28 Apr 2010 #22
There are not criminals - they are true heroes and winners.

Child rapists are true heroes?

but it's a saying... victors are not judged

That is very true.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #23
Don't misunderstand me Sasha...it's not about me, my Opa or Germany.
We came clear with our past.

It's the russian way of thinking what puzzles me...you are the most opressed, murdered, abused people in Europe and instead of fighting this you still revere and honor your opressors!

We will see that in May again.

Many of those veterans were also part in killing Russians (I mean it wasn't the Marsians which killed and deported so many millions of your own), I'm sure of it....but you cheer them like...well....brain amputated, stockholm syndrom suffering, idiots, sorry to say that!

Stalin and his helpers killed much more of your own than the Germans ever could...
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #24
At least he didn't concentrate on killing his own people..

History is not reversable.

I would be happy if Western democracies could won war against Hitler without Russians. May be it would help us to remove Stalin and communism earlier and save more lives.

Child rapists are true heroes?

Looks like I missed the moment when you opened a case against rapists? There was an army tribunal for rapists in Soviet army.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #25
May be it would help us to remove Stalin and communism earlier and save more lives.

Was there resistance? Who could have done the "removing"?
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #26
There was a civil war in 1918-20 - White movement lost, most educated people were killed. Any resistance was supressed with mass murders.
Stalin "cult" was removed after 1953 and most radical NKVD officers were killed or were put to prison -but by other communists. Mass murders and repressions were stopped after that. Stalin was already a history when I was young.
TheOther 5 | 3,836
28 Apr 2010 #27
There was an army tribunal for rapists in Soviet army.

Raping civilians was tolerated by many officers of the Red Army. Only when it became too obvious what was going on, did they interfere and stop the atrocities. Tribunals? Yeah, maybe for some scapegoats.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,858
28 Apr 2010 #28
There was a civil war in 1918-20 - White movement lost, most educated people were killed. Any resistance was supressed with mass murders.

Many of those fighted with the Wehrmacht later to have a go at their red oppressors, didn't they...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Liberation_Army
Sasha 2 | 1,083
28 Apr 2010 #29
BB no offense but you seem to misinterpret the incoming information.
Those who we "honour in May" has little to none to do with mass murders of Russians/Soviets/Poles. You must have confused NKVD with regular soldiers. NKVD was completely different department consisted of so-called "tilovaja krisa" (swivel-chair warrioirs, "reaward rats" if stick with literal translation from Russian) who were responsible for execution of defectors and so on. Does one need 1000 people to execute another 1000? Obviously not. Thus the overall quantity of NKVD-members is really tiny compared to veterans who we praise and they hardly have anything to do with veterans. Even if there are some among them there's a juridical term such as presumption of innocence. If you want to judge them, prove it first. Or should I in your book turn my nose up at all of them for the only reason that some of them are possibly guilty? That's not gonna work. :)

In case you still want to judge NKVDshnikov... Most of them I believe are already gone, those who gave orders even long ago. Having said that, I agree with that the government shouldn't let it slide. The ones who are guilty must be sued.

well....brain amputed, stockholm syndrom suffering, idiots, sorry to say that!

Certainly grates on my ears. I only cherish a hope that this piece of art is not what they write in your press. BB, we don't praise murderers. We praise people who laid their lives for the my opportunity to speak Russian and live in this at times inhuman, in patches dirty but in general lovely and, I want to believe, kindhearted country.
Jed - | 165
28 Apr 2010 #30
Raping civilians was tolerated by many officers of the Red Army. Only when it became too obvious what was going on, did they interfere and stopped the atrocities.

Yes, possible there were such cases but definitely less than we now talk about. It became a propaganda tool against Soviets after the war - communist's propaganda is not better just used different tools.

You describe Soviet army which would couldn't exist as an army - not talking about winning against strong enemy. It's soldiers were not angels but they struggled against European "true Aryes" and before entering Europe saw what they did in Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. More than 15 million civilians were murdered by Nazis on USSR territory.

Many of those fighted with the Wehrmacht later to have a go at their red opressors, didn't they..

ROA - Russian Liberation Army - collaborated to Nazis and were our enemies. As these they were prisoners of war and founded their right place after the war.


Home / News / RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.