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RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...


Olga 1 | 330
29 Apr 2010 #61
Seanus:

So, the fact that Polish investigators have only had limited access to the evidence, all under Russian "supervision", and that Poland is still not in possession of the black boxes, is completely irrelevant? Were you aware that Polish authorites were only informed this previous week, by Russian investigators, of a fourth black box? Ever heard of "throw the dog a bone"? This would would well-describe this latest maneuvre.

rp.pl/artykul/459542,466265_Polscy_prokuratorzy_czekaja_na_ materialy.html
rp.pl/artykul/107684,466270_Jestesmy_zdani_na_wole_Rosjan.html
polskieradio.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykul158266.html
guzzler 1 | 88
29 Apr 2010 #62
It takes two to tango. :) Seriously it's the same the other way around. How many of you guys ever been to Russia to perfectly know how things here are?
Most of my friends are used to read both Russian and Western press to compose the final opinion.

Sasha I worked with Russian engineers in London in 1977, we were working on the design and fabrication of two Methanol Plants for Siberia. I have always found that people have more in common when we get to know each other. Only one of the Russian spoke English, and one of our engineers spoke Russian. We went drinking together every Friday night, and had a great time. We also had Russian interpreters about six and a great looking girl from Moscow. One of the interpreters was Fergus Maclean his father was Donand MacLean, the British defector Fergus looked and sounded like Prince Charles?. I went to Moscow and Leningrad in 1982 we had a great time, the Hermitage was amazing.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
29 Apr 2010 #63
Well, is a Mayor of Moscow with his plans to honour Stalin with posters in the city during the 9th of may the same as some anonymous, marginalized neonazi in Berlin...?

Luzhkov is an exemplary case of an idiot who, by a twist of fate, happened to be at the helm. As far as I know the issue is being discussed, hopefully it's not gonna come true. Or did it already? (I'm not currently in Msc).

ask the Baltic states who started WWII from their point of view.

They're not the party to be asked on that, since they have a good reason for nor being completely fair. "The Soviet Story" sponsored largely by the BS could be a good watch, if they didn't set a goal of drowning personal fault in tears about stalin.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
29 Apr 2010 #64
So, the fact that Polish investigators have only had limited access to the evidence, all under Russian "supervision", and that Poland is still not in possession of the black boxes, is completely irrelevant? Were you aware that Polish authorites were only informed this previous week, by Russian investigators, of a fourth black box? Ever heard of "throw the dog a bone"? This would would well-describe this latest maneuvre.

Seanus - I'm finding myself defending the Russians again. In aircraft accidents the country where the accident happened normally keeps all black (orange) boxes, flight deck recorders, etc. I was surprised to hear Poland got one of the boxes and I assume it was a Russian gesture of good-will however, like I said it's very unusual...

Sasha - would you please explain the picture at the bottom, Latvia & Hitler? What's that about.
I agree with you about the Moscow mayor but could you clarify your position on Baltic States again, you confused me somewhat...

Sposibo
Olga 1 | 330
29 Apr 2010 #65
Goodwill? Need I remind anyone of the Kursk? If Russia can stand by and do nothing for their own, while a British ship was stationed and ready to assist, certainly a hundred or so Polaks were no skin off its ass. Really, now, let's not forget the true character of this government...
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
29 Apr 2010 #66
Need I remind anyone of the Kursk? If Russia can stand by and do nothing for their own, while a British ship was stationed and ready to assist,

Maybe they learnt from that episode.

BTW I think something similar happened after the Kursk and they did accept help. I could be wrong though.
Mr Grunwald 20 | 1,554
29 Apr 2010 #67
Sasha - would you please explain the picture at the bottom, Latvia & Hitler? What's that about.

Well... when the SU "liberated" Poland during WW2 the Poles seemed to think that another oppressor has changed position with the former oppressor

While in the Baltic states their "experience" of Russian hegemony in their area were quite "not so very new" the occupation of SU was just another "Russian occupation" for them.

When Das Reich invaded SU, coming up the Baltic states they saw first and foremost German soldiers, not mass murdering crazy people. Remember during the inter-war time the Baltic states were very pro-Germany (there is a reason why Lithuania was her own state and not with Poland)

When they joined the SS they didn't do it because "Wohoo we are mass murderers and they are it too bezt friends <3"

It was foremost because Nazi Germany was vs SU
Of course as any organization they had their weirdos.

(I myself wouldn't even consider joining any SS stuff just so that is CLEAR!!!)
But they got their weeeeird reasons ;) (independence pfff what's that?)
Sasha 2 | 1,083
29 Apr 2010 #68
Sasha - would you please explain the picture at the bottom, Latvia & Hitler? What's that about.

That's a flag of Latviešu leģions aka Lettische SS-Freiwilligen-Legion. Willingly collaborated with Nazi Germany in WW2. They're involved in numbers of war crimes in Soviet Russia, Belorussia and Poland (in Podgae, can be wrong spelling). At times they were even more enthusiastic and inventive in killing civilians than the German SS. They have a finger in the pie but silence the issue and moreover have the annual nazi-party.

ss

Even wild-wild Russia express more and more understanding about stalin crimes. Why does Latvia prefer to push all the blame upon stalin?
Velund 1 | 405
29 Apr 2010 #69
Willingly collaborated with Nazi Germany in WW2.

Just to remember - Latviešu strēlnieki was widely used until 1920 by communistic regime to shot to civilians during suppression of uprisings (Yaroslavl, Murom, Rybinsk, Kaluga, Saratov, Novgorod, etc...). They was also more enthusiastic about killing civilians that times.

BTW, one of creators and first boss of Gulag was Fedor Eikhmans, also former "latvian riflemen". Directly responsible for mass repressions and countless deaths.
Darun 1 | 55
29 Apr 2010 #70
That's a flag of Latviešu leģions aka Lettische SS-Freiwilligen-Legion. Willingly collaborated with Nazi Germany in WW2.

Sasha, many groups from all around Europe joined the SS. On many occasions people from the same country have found themselves on opposite sides, fighting one another. In many countries there were extremists, either pro-nazi, either pro-soviet and those joined accordingly.

From your answer, it seems that you are trying to justify an invasion by the acts that followed from the invaded part, to justify the cause through pointing at the results.

Concerning the Baltic States, many groups have joined nazis in the hope of liberating their countries fallen as a result of the soviet invadings. Look for example, if you don't like the Baltic states as example, look at Finland. They were considering and tried neutrality until they were invaded by the Soviets. This pushed them on the side of the Nazis.

Except groups of the ones you mentioned when given the example of Latvia, some groups who have joined either nazis or soviets out of ideological conviction, the entire countries have joined either a side or another based on their situation at that time, and except a few, most didn't quite have a real option to not join the specific side.

If not between the nazis and the soviets both invading and trying to conquer as much, perhaps the entire Europe could have rallied, and could have done so on the side of the Soviets if their intentions would have not been from the same breeding as that of the nazis. But then again, we don't know what could have happened if not for the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact - btw, who says that Hitler and Stalin together weren't responsible for starting this war, they should perhaps read the protocol -, we only know what happened, and even if at different levels, the outcome was that everybody started killing everybody.
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #71
BTW, one of creators and first boss of Gulag was Fedor Eikhmans, also former "latvian riflemen".

Minorities of Russian Empire were among most active supporters of communist's revolution in 1917 – Jews (and some remarkable Poles and Latvians) were majority in communist government until end of 20-s - beg. of 30-s – when Stalin got the power and removed many of his Jewish “competitors” like Trotsky. Until the WWII and even before Stalin death in 1953 ethnic Russians were not a majority among communist party and NKVD leaders. It is clear that ethnic Russians “chauvinists” were the major danger for communist rulers and suffered more than others. The majority of Russian elite – were killed or forced to leave the country in civil war of 1918-1920 by illiterate Russian workers and farmers under communist’s leadership.

Beria (NKVD chief who proposed to kill Polish officers in his report to Stalin) and Stalin (who signed it) were both Georgians - and funny that if they would live now they would be foreigners in Russia and would possible vote for Saakashvili as their president.

But it is not politically correct to remember it and now Russians are the only guilty in all those crimes – I believe we need to support personal responsibility rather than common or ethnic.

..
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
29 Apr 2010 #72
But it is not politically correct to remember it and now Russians are the only guilty in all those crimes

It's like with Germans and Austrians...;)
Mr Grunwald 20 | 1,554
29 Apr 2010 #73
Minorities of Russian Empire were among most active supporters of communist's revolution in 1917 – Jews (and some remarkable Poles and Latvians) were majority in communist government until end of 20-s - beg. of 30-s –

They were first and foremost communists/Soviets although I agree that their minority background somehow influenced the negative impact on Russians
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #74
My message is not about to blame all Jews or Poles or somebody else as a whole nation. I believe that every criminal has his own name and family name.
Darun 1 | 55
29 Apr 2010 #75
But it is not politically correct to remember it and now Russians are the only guilty in all those crimes

No Jed, that's the point.
The same as the nowadays Germans are not guilty for the crimes of the Nazis, the same the nowadays Russians are not responsible for the crimes of the Soviets.

But the difference is that while the Germans have condamned the crimes of the nazis and have really done impressive steps towards reconciliation, recognising the gravity of those crimes, the Russians have taken a very different approach, not recognising the magnitude of the soviet crimes and the mistakes of that time somewhat posing in victims of some anti-russian conspiracy of the present, making themselves full heirs of the soviets.

You pointed out quite well, that many from the communist leadership where of other ethnicity than russians, and the fact that Stalin had so many people killed, should be reason enought to let go of this cult for that man. It is this reluctance to differentiate from the soviets and condemn their attrocities that makes you a target for those that point fingers. Nobody has anything against Russians, but it is you who entertaint this idea by not differentiating yourselves from the soviets.

Btw, the politically correctness and the positive discrimination, to my humble opinion, are the most distructive concepts of our days. They are like powder barells just waiting to explode. Not talking about things makes no one a favor.

Even if we talk within a forum, even if at times we all get to finger pointing, blaming whining and stuf alike, we at least discuss and try to see other points as well, and even this aspect to me is a step forward.
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #76
Russians have taken a very different approach, not recognising the magnitude of the soviet crimes and the mistakes of that time somewhat posing in victims of some anti-russian conspiracy of the present, making themselves full heirs of the soviets.

What do you mean? How also we should recognise Soviet crimes from your point of view?

Should we blame our old veterans of WWII in any crimes? It will never happen. I prefer evolution over any revolution.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
29 Apr 2010 #77
Should we blame our old veterans of WWII in any crimes? It will never happen.

Even if some of them are guilty? One example:
uk.reuters.com/article/idUKLE459966

What if one of those veterans took part in this? Are you absolving him too?
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #78
Even if some of them are guilty?

No trial - no guilty.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
29 Apr 2010 #79
Is there someone in Russia who would be interested to find out about the murderers and would he be successful taking them to trial?

...
MALBORK, Poland, Jan 14 (Reuters) - Polish authorities have unearthed the remains of 1,800 bodies and expect to find even more in a mass grave first discovered three months ago and believed to date back to the final days of World War Two.

The site is in a corner of northern Poland that was part of Germany until 1945 and the authorities suspect the remains are of ethnic German civilians, at least some of whom were probably killed by advancing Soviet forces.

"We are dealing with a mass grave of civilians, probably of German origin. The presence of children... suggests they were civilians," ...

Olga 1 | 330
29 Apr 2010 #80
Before we get all misty-eyed and sentimental over this latest mockery, here's a reminder of what a "friend" Putin's Russia has been for Poland, for those with short-term memory loss: telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6480227/Russia-simulates-nuclear-attack-on-Poland.html
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #81
Is there someone in Russia who would be interested to find out about the murderers and would he be successful taking them to trial?

Don't think so. You've provided a message about crime -yes, it's a crime and should be investigated. I don't think we should hide criminals - but I also don't trust to any German or Polish investigator in this case - so we will need a kind of independent trial or commision. In theory it is possible but I don't believe in any practical result.

But what if we start to investigate all Nazis crimes on FSU territory? There are still a lot left without any investigation.

The war is over. The losers were put to the trial and punished. End of story and start of history. The only other possibility is to start a war again. I wouldn't like the idea, but if you insist...
Mr Grunwald 20 | 1,554
29 Apr 2010 #82
for those with short-term memory loss:

Yeah I actually remember that, I called my family in Poland and wanted to talk about it. I cried when I was reading it in my school in my free time. I was really scared of Russia wanting to blow up Poland.

Now I have faced the realities.
They won't
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Apr 2010 #83
I agree with Jed, it is absurd to start actions against people who are close to their death beds. Why don't people punish crimes when they happen? You are letting criminals off the hook.
Darun 1 | 55
29 Apr 2010 #84
I agree with Jed, it is absurd to start actions against people who are close to their death beds.

Than the same applies for the nazi war criminals. I keep hearing how '80-'90 year old "war criminals" are discovered somewhere living a life, having a family and than sent to trial and to prison.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
29 Apr 2010 #85
Seanus - I'm finding myself defending the Russians again. In aircraft accidents the country where the accident happened normally keeps all black (orange) boxes, flight deck recorders, etc. I was surprised to hear Poland got one of the boxes and I assume it was a Russian gesture of good-will however, like I said it's very unusual...

Sky are you the Public Relations agent for Russia? LOL

Your analysis of: the country where a plane accident happened generally holds onto the black boxes may be true, BUT this situation is unique in light of the situation where the country holding onto the black boxes comitted the Katyn atrocities against the Poles. So you can't keep applying general standards to this crash when there exists this unique dynamic between the two countries involved here. Certainly both Russia and Poland are well aware of the unique dynamic here.

So you can't keep saying "Well the country where a plane crash happens keeps the black boxes and does this does that.......That standard should NOT apply here considering the controversial relationship between the countries involved here. If Poland did NOT receive the black boxes and other key information here, then that should rightly raise many eyebrows everywhere.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
29 Apr 2010 #86
But what if we start to investigate all Nazis crimes on FSU territory? There are still a lot left without any investigation.

I don't think there is an army which was as much investigated as the german.
You are free to investigate all the crimes, you did already.

but I also don't trust to any German or Polish investigator in this case

How about doing that yourself?

Why don't people punish crimes when they happen?

Because it wasn't possible?
How could the Germans and the Poles demand a trial and punishment for the murderers in the Soviet army after the war? Katyn needed 70 years.....

The only other possibility is to start a war again. I wouldn't like the idea, but if you insist...

I don't understand you....
You would want to go to war to defend some war criminal who murdered women and children?
You think because you won the war there is no need to go after your war criminals?

Boy...you are further away from any true reconciliation than I thought! In case you don't know, waiting till the problems and questions are dying away won't work. Your skelets in the closets are only going away if they are out in the open. Be it in 50 or 100 years.

PS: Look in a mirror when you next time want to heap your anger at some little baltic parade...they honor their veterans as you do.

They care about the crimes they possible did as much as you do!
Jed - | 165
29 Apr 2010 #87
Than the same applies for the nazi war criminals.

How we can punish an old nazi of over 80-90 years old? He is already punished by life living in fear.

But for Nazis we at least had a trial verdict. May be somebody already invented time machine and we are able to reverse history?

You would want to go to war to defend some war criminal who murdered women and children?

I would want to leave it for history and historians. We are not able to save lives and even not able to punish criminals. Time passed and it is too late.

You need to stop blaming - those who guilty will never respond and whose who innocent will never accept responsibility.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Apr 2010 #88
Jed is right. The international community must hold its hands up in shame and acknowledge that the time has passed. Punishing people after 70 years is plainly absurd and it would send out a very bad message to would-be wrongdoers. What, will Israel be punished for genocide (OCL) 70 years down the line too? Too many idiots in this world who need a beating!
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
29 Apr 2010 #89
I would want to leave it for history and historians. We are not able to save lives and even not able to punish criminals. Time passed and it is too late.

So...you think it would be better to let it rest? No investigation? Not finding out what had happened to these civilians? Who did it what?

Would you see it the same if it were russian civilians murdered by the SS?

The international community must hold its hands up in shame and acknowledge that the time has passed. Punishing people after 70 years is plainly absurd and it would send out a very bad message to would-be wrongdoers.

Would you say the same to Poles who so long fighted that Russia acknowledges the crime of Katyn? All these NKVD murderers are dead...should they stop caring?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
29 Apr 2010 #90
An investigation 70 years on, BB? What kind of nonsense is that? Do you know how bad that looks?


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