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RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...


Sasha 2 | 1,083
30 Apr 2010 #181
Uncle... they weren't on their soil. That's my point. I'm not going to justify the Poland's invasion by Soviets.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
30 Apr 2010 #182
I'm not going to justify the Poland's invasion by Soviets.

Well...you don't have to. But do you think many of those young red armist ordered into Poland did that because they wanted to? Doubtful at least...they did what soldiers do in any army...even worse....disobeying had meant sure death. Do you think it was different in any army at that time?
Havok 10 | 912
30 Apr 2010 #183
Jed

I absolutely agree with your statement here. Finlay someone is actually researching this stuff.

Poles NEVER charged any tanks. That was a big Nazi German lie that was repeated over and over to discredit and demean Poland. I can't believe you actually believe that big lie.

come down, i know that. I meant to say that comparing with Germany in '39 we had virtually no military.

Saakashivili didn't start anything. Georgia was being violated by Russia and abused for 2 years before Saakashvili did anything

Russia Set Up Georgia for the invasion.

I would agree with Jed on this. You're just simply blabling something....

If you want to stop any beginning reconciliation...go on Olga, you are on the right path!

I would agree with you Brat too , what difference does it make if they release those records or not? Like i said before they probably don't have accurate records of this event anyway.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2010 #184
Much changed in 6 years :(

So what is the big revelation supposed to be about these files? Many were killed, we all know that. Many who killed them died too, we also know that. Openness and transparency at last.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
30 Apr 2010 #185
So what is the big revelation supposed to be about these files?

As i understand it there are one or two-thousand missing names
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
30 Apr 2010 #186
Would it make life easier if they'd open up the archives on Katyn? If yes then I'm all for it, but if it doesn't, why bother? Indeed, like Seanus said, we all know what happened there, does it really matter to know exactly who shot who? Is that the main thing to know? Isn't it much more important the event is being recognized and we finally all can move on?

Edit: when I wrote this, I missed Wroclaw's post. If there are two thousand names missing, then indeed it would be a good thing to open up and hand over the lists.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Havok 10 | 912
30 Apr 2010 #187
I'm not even talking about Katyń but generally what's going on in Russia now. I had no idea that you are such devoted Russia's lover, Bratwurtski :)

This is not about love or hate. Thy to use your brains for a day.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2010 #188
Wow, I didn't know that, Wrocław. How on Earth could that be let to pass for so long? Still, at least there are names on record. How many can list the names of those Palestinians that died in OCL from 27/12/08 to 18/01/09?
MediaWatch 10 | 945
30 Apr 2010 #189
I would agree with Jed on this. You're just simply blabling something....

Forget about what I say.

The EU Report that blamed Georgia for being the first to use heavy artillery in the conflict also said that the Russian "peacekeepers" were anything but peacekeepers in the Georgian territories and were creating and allowing tensions to grow between Georgians and non-Georgians. Georgia's airspace was being violated by Russian aircraft, Russian drones constantly before the Aug. 2008 conflict. For the record Russia seized territory from Georgia when Georgia did NOT invade Russian territory. Russia basically used a WWII "Sudetanland land" type argument to seize Georgia's northern territories. If the Russian logic for Abhkazia and S. Ossetia to be free of Georgia applies then territories such as Chechnya, Ingushetia and other Southern Russian territories should be free of Russia.

Do you really think the huge Russian land, sea and air force that attacked Georgia was put together in 24 hours?? Come on. That took months to coordinate and put together. So what does that say?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,590
30 Apr 2010 #190
Russia basically used a WWII "Sudetanland land" type argument to seize Georgia's northern territories.

Some other arguments: spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,570829,00.html

....
After the recognition of Kosovo, the situation intensified and Georgia understands that it is losing South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Further talks will only serve to distance the two republics even further from Georgia. That's why the Georgians themselves have started to aggravate the situation, violating previous agreements and applying constant pressure.

spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,578273,00.html

...
But then Saunders qualifies his statement: "More and more people are realizing that there are two sides in this conflict, and that Georgia was not as much a victim as a willing participant." Members of US President George W. Bush's administration, too, are reconsidering their position.

Velund 1 | 399
1 May 2010 #191
to seize Georgia's northern territories.

By the way, it was recognized by foreign countries as georgian territories, but they really should become an independent states at the moment of decomposition of USSR (by laws that was active in that moment - autonomous republics within one of 15 republics that is planned to separate had the right to decide - should they remain as autonomy in that republic, or become new subject of USSR). For example, Abkhaz autonomous republic had referendum, that was willfully boycotted by ethnic Georgians so only Abkhaz people participated and they decided to keep Abkhazia as a subject of USSR. Almost at same time Georgian part of Abkhaz ASSR population participated in georgian referendum - that was about independency. That one, in turn, was boycotted by Abkhaz population.

So, real status of this two autonomies was not so clear from beginning. And once Kosovo precedent destroyed principle of invariance of borders, georgians had no way, except force like with now not existing Adjaria, to keep this de-facto independent autonomies.

What to South Ossetia - it was included to Georgian SSR purely by administrative reasons. Before tunnel was built, there was problem to get from southern part to northen part during winter. So, Ossetia was split to two autonomies separated by Caucasus mountains - one withhin RSFSR, another within Georgian SSR.

Just like Crimea that was handed to Ukrainian SSR from RSFSR by Khruschev due to complicated administration of area that was separated by water from RSFSR. By the way, also, that "movement" was in fact illegal according to laws that was in effect that time.
Havok 10 | 912
1 May 2010 #192
Do you really think the huge Russian land, sea and air force that attacked Georgia was put together in 24 hours?? Come on. That took months to coordinate and put together. So what does that say?

Yes, i agree but as for the reason let me just quote Jed.

Easy - Geogia is alternative way for oil and gas pipes from Caspian Sea and Central Asia. Monopoly is better for profit.

Georgia could easily diffuse this situation by making a deal with a bigger and more powerful Russia. Instead they insisted on playing a victim provoking Russian attack.

Georgian Government should have acted in the best interest of its citizens. That makes them equally responsible for the tragedy there. They should make a deal and appeal it later with the U.S. on their side. Another example of a government ran by a bunch of selfish idiots.

nd that Georgia was not as much a victim as a willing participant."

Velund 1 | 399
1 May 2010 #193
Yes, i agree but as for the reason let me just quote Jed.

By the way, I'm army officer in a reserve. Tank forces. And I was little bit surprised - what do you think we would need to do whole month instead of just fueling tanks, loading ammo and moving tanks and supporting vehicles from boxes? ;)
Havok 10 | 912
1 May 2010 #194
what do you think we would need to do whole

You are sort of making my point here. Everyone knew ahead of the time what was cooking, there was plenty of time to figure out how to prevent it.

I was a search and rescue swimmer in the U.S. Navy for 4 years, got out in 2k. My job was mainly to save people but I've seen people killed too, it's the most f-ed up thing. The Georgian Government should prevent it.

-----

GO U.S. SAR!

youtube.com/watch?v=6jlVY36E4ZU&feature=fvw
Havok 10 | 912
1 May 2010 #195
response to E-mail...



Velund 1 | 399
1 May 2010 #196
Everyone knew ahead of the time what was cooking, there was plenty of time to figure out how to prevent it.

I will agree and not agree at same time.

Yes, it was known that provocations is possible at any time (and from any side, of course - there is a lot of hot heads with arms in the hands at both sides, and they, especially militia, not always wait for a order before pushing the trigger). Georgians and Ossetians really don't like each other after a number of armed conflicts and numerous civilian casualties from both sides. I cannot keep Ossetians guilty in this conflicts - when georgians demanded independence, they let everyone (who wanted to hear) to know that they want to remain united with their own people in North Ossetia. Georgian nationalists completely ignored that, declared that Ossetian autonomy doesn't exist anymore, and tried to take full power on that territory by armed force (by the way, on territory where Ossetians lived for centuries, on a Caucasus it is a _very_ important fact). Many civilians from georgian population of Ossetia participated in that attempt. Result was quite disappointing for georgians.

But, I think, nobody expected full scale attack on russian peacekeepers and ossetian civilians, with use of heavy weapons and tactical missiles. Most likely Saakashvili decided to make an atempt to solve both territorial problems and problems with their popularity at once.
espana 17 | 910
29 May 2010 #197
i m going to watch the film KATYN now and later i will be a stalin`s fan
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Jul 2010 #198
Thread attached on merging:
Documentary about Katyn 2010 is aired on state TV1 channel. Again? O Lord!

This unexpected sentimentality is getting more and more hassle ! One thing I cannot understand, why obvious idiot is prised after his more than idiotic death?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Jul 2010 #199
The politics of 'Kaczynscy' may be far from many peoples' liking but there is no getting round the fact that Lech was highly educated, as is his brother Jarosław. It's rather harsh to call him an idiot, CK.

It does seem to be a bit too much, you are right enough. This is the third time now, right? What does it matter to modern-day Russians? What can they do? Nothing! Should they be sorry? No. It was a different generation with Stalin at the helm. Showing sth too often can have the opposite of the intended effect.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Jul 2010 #200
In fact, highly edfucated: Lech was a law professor, Jarosław holds a doctor of laws degree.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Jul 2010 #201
I edited the above, Pol3. You are right! I'm one step under Jarosław but we don't buy our education in Scotland ;) ;) ;)

CK, LK is connected with Smolensk and not Katyń. What's your point here?
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Jul 2010 #202
Lech was highly educated, as is his brother Jarosław. It's rather harsh to call him an idiot, CK.

In fact, highly edfucated: Lech was a law professor, Jarosław holds a doctor of laws degree.

History knows too many highly educated idiots... am I right?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Jul 2010 #203
Well, that's a fair enough question, CK. I've known plenty of morons that did well in academia. They fall short in other areas.

Asking a Pole not to fall for sth like that is asking the near impossible. I bet you'll be taking it up soon too.

Anyway, stop sidetracking the thread with your poor me, tittle tattle. Mods, please get tougher on those that do this. I'm getting tired of sidetrackers. Then please examine your own posts.

CK, how are Russians reacting? Surely this has little to do with them? 70 years on, what a joke! Did the Polish authorities try and indict the Nazis for Katyń? When was the first attempt?

Look, I don't know what 'lier' means and I quoted the article. Now kindly stop your petty BS and answer the thread like I've been doing.

If you say so, the evidence shows otherwise. Now, any thoughts on the issue? A good chance to talk to your Slavic father, Russia. CK is here. Russia and Poland, Slavic family since the dawning of time ;) ;) Gonna accept the olive branch? :)

Nothing like governments deciding things ;)
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Jul 2010 #204
A good chance to talk to your Slavic father, Russia. CK is here.

Good words Seanus
Seanus 15 | 19,706
4 Jul 2010 #205
What was the official reason for showing it again, CK? For the viewers that missed it the first time? ;) ;) Now you know about the NKVD and Soviet Army's misdeeds, and? David, you believe actions speak louder than words, do you know? Do you believe it? Well, what should CK do as a Russian watching it?
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Jul 2010 #206
What was the official reason for showing it again, CK?

I think it is because of election in Poland. To love Poland is a fashion in modern Russia...nonsense
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
4 Jul 2010 #207
How does the TV system work in Russia, do people get it on demand: as in we really like movie x could you show it again, or is it decided from the top?
frd 7 | 1,399
4 Jul 2010 #208
I think it is because of election in Poland. To love Poland is a fashion in modern Russia...nonsense

Maybe it's there to work on Polish expats in Russia before their voting?
ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Jul 2010 #209
ConstantineK:
I think it is because of election in Poland. To love Poland is a fashion in modern Russia...nonsense
Maybe it's there to work on Polish expats in Russia before their voting?

Do we have them? Anyway there are few of them here, there is no sense to spend so many only to please them
frd 7 | 1,399
4 Jul 2010 #210
Yeah you are right, maybe if it was on tv polonia, but not tv1.. they'd have to spend a lot to go through something like that ;)


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