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RUSSIA TO MAKE PUBLIC THE KATYN FILES...


Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #151
His praising of Stalin

His praising? It certainly goes well beyond that.
themoscowtimes.com/news/article/stalin-billboards-for-victory-day/400091.html
Jed - | 165
30 Apr 2010 #152
His praising? It certainly goes well beyond that.

You can't believe it but Putin is not the only citizen in Russia. Other 140 millions are also exist.

That particular decision was made by Mr Luzhkov - major of Moscow. This decision is now cancelled.
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #153
This decision is now cancelled.

I know it's cancelled, but the decision for such to begin with certainly says a lot about the Communist mentality pervasive in your country's government.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
30 Apr 2010 #154
I wouldn't look to much into Putin going beyond praising.
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #155
Of course not, we like to keep our rose-colored glasses on.
Jed - | 165
30 Apr 2010 #156
Communist mentality pervasive in your country's government

There is no such mentality in our government anymore. Communist party has a minority in Duma (parliament) and has no positions in government.

Some old veterans think that it is good to remember Stalin "positive role" in WWII. But even among them it is a minority.
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #157
There is no such mentality in our government anymore.

That is such BS. It's alive and thriving.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #158
Saakashivili didn't start anything.

He wasn't an innocent lamb either!
He tried to play games and lost...

Russia likes to twist history to suit its over-inflated ego. The truth of the matter is, Russia is just a big sh*t-disturbing bully.

Nothing beats a generous one-sentence judgement of millions of people, doesn' it....

I know it's cancelled, but the decision for such to begin with certainly says a lot about the Communist mentality pervasive in your country's government.

It says alot about the open discussion about this for many people uncomfortable, difficult topic...the outcome of that is a good sign and should be seen as such even by the most determined russophobes!

Acknowledging such signs and developments isn't going to kill you, you know?
Or else progressive Russians might come to think: "Why struggling so hard to come to terms with our past if they keep on hating us?"

In Germany such a thing would had been forbidden by law without any open discussion whatsoever. That is worse in my opinion!
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #159
Nothing beats a generous one-sentence judgement of millions of people, doesn' it....

Talking about the government--keep up.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #160
Russia isn't North Korea...differentiation is needed here too.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Russia

The Government of the Russian Federation (Russian: Прави́тельство Росси́йской Федера́ции) exercises executive power in the Russian Federation. The members of the government are the prime minister, the deputy prime ministers, and the federal ministers. It has its legal basis in the Constitution of the Russian Federation and the federal constitutional law "On the Government of the Russian Federation".[1]

There are goodies and baddies, conservative, hard core stalinists, communists, liberal, progressive...whatever you want.

And they have regular elections...hardly a dictatorship.
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #161
No, it's not, but it's also not any more principled.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #162
"principled"???

Stop demanding more from the Russians than you do from others...they have their own problems and surely some things are seen differently over there...heaping scorn and contempt at them is not helping!

Putin has an astounishing number of voters and supporters, so what he says and does seems to be seen as good and positive with the majority of Russians, we have to accept that.

Germany did put up with years of rule of the polish "terrible twins", it was bad for our mutual relationship but we endured, after all it was the decision of the Poles.
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #163
Stop demanding more from the Russians than you do from others.

More? If The Russian government insists on promoting their so-called "friendship" and "goodwill", how about they start putting their money where their mouth is--otherwise shut up. Posturing doesn't cut it. That's what's expected of any nation that commands respect.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #164
Well, I think it was a great step what happened recently in the Katyn affair (Putin admitting that it had been Russians, acknowledging and regretting openly and officially)...demanding more and more and still blaming and hating them is a sure way to make the Russians regret what they admitted already. You cannot go from 0 to 100...such a process needs time.

If you want to stop any beginning reconciliation...go on Olga, you are on the right path!
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
30 Apr 2010 #165
His praising? It certainly goes well beyond that.

What does it say? Don't want to subscribe...

I don't think I use reflexes when I think about Russia, I think of history. It's good to be cautious, especially when it comes to dealing with a country that has been brutal toward Poland (and other nations) so many times. When I say country I'm talking about the regime of course.

At the same token, it's good to be able to forgive and to move on. In my view, the process of forgiveness has been severely stalled by Putin but will eventually resume once he's gone, and one day he will be.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #166
It's good to be cautious, especially when it comes to dealing with a country that has been brutal toward Poland (and other nations) so many times.

Not more than others I would say...and hadn't it been Poles who once conquered Moscow or invaded with Napoleons troops?

Would modern Poles like to be treated as hostile conquerer and invaders by modern Russians?

In my view, the process of forgiveness has been severely stalled by Putin but will eventually resume once he's gone, and one day he will be.

Well, if I remember it correctly it was Putin who was the first official Russian ever bowing before the polish victims of Katyn.

Did that escape somehow your attention? *seriously puzzled*
Bzibzioh
30 Apr 2010 #167
the process of forgiveness has been severely stalled by Putin but will eventually resume once he's gone, and one day he will be.

Not to be fussy but do you think the next guy will be that much better? ;)
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
30 Apr 2010 #168
I agree with most of your post here except the "Georgia was a part of plan of former US administration for Russia isolation" comment.

In my view the plan was to de-isolate Georgia from the Russian isolation that was already going on. It was about making Europe less dependent on the Russian supply lines. So not really to an effort to isolate Russia but to lessen Europe's dependence on Russian oil/gas which Russia likes to use for political gains.

I guess instead of a "US" puppet in Ukraine as you called it there's now a Russian puppet there but the pendulum will swing again, and again...
Jed - | 165
30 Apr 2010 #169
Not to be fussy but do you think the next guy will be that much better?

Better to whom? For most Russians at the moment Putin looks better then any of his predecessors in the last 100 years of our violent history.

I agree with most of your post here .... It was about making Europe less dependent on the Russian supply lines.

We may only guess about their plans - who knows exactly?

To make Europe less dependent is a good idea by itself.
Bzibzioh
30 Apr 2010 #170
For most Russians at the moment Putin looks better then any of his predecessors in the last 100 years of our violent history.

If that's the best you've had in 100 years no wonder you are so messed up.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #171
Honestly...why are you ignoring that Putin did more for the official acknowledgement of Katyn than any other before?

Is there some kind of demonization going on? I can emphazise with Russians in this case I think....when all your tries to come to term with your crimes and acknowledging them and apologizing for them are faced with a wall of refusal, being turned down...you will just stop trying one day, knowing it futile, letting resentments grow again.

This is not in Polands interest I think!
Bzibzioh
30 Apr 2010 #172
Honestly...why are you ignoring that Putin did more for the official acknowledgement of Katyn than any other before?

I'm not even talking about KatyƄ but generally what's going on in Russia now. I had no idea that you are such devoted Russia's lover, Bratwurtski :)

apologizing for them are faced with a wall of refusal, being turned down.

Well, we still have to wait for that part.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #173
I had no idea that you are such devoted Russia's lover, Bratwurtski :)

I'm trying to be fair Bzibzi...and I admit I can emphasize with the russian fight to come clear with their past, it is not easy.

Also I know all about polish stubbornness and aversion against reconciliation...;)

Well, we still have to wait for that part.

What do you think was that?

Putin at Katyn

Remember that? Chancellor Brandt in Warsaw:

Sometimes we too thought...WHY? Why apologizing if the Poles will never forgive us anyhow?
If they want hostile relationships and ongoing fights and animosities they can have them...we give up!
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #174
If you want to stop any beginning reconciliation...go on Olga, you are on the right path!

Russia simulating an invasion on Polish soil last September clearly showed it's full of sh*t concerning misty-eyed "reconciliations". Am I the only one who's up to date on events?

why are you ignoring that Putin did more for the official acknowledgement of Katyn than any other before?

It wasn't Putin, FYI, it was Gorbachev. Does "glasnost" ring a bell?

If that's the best you've had in 100 years no wonder you are so messed up.

Gee, I thought Gorby was light years ahead of his time.

What do you think was that?

Ummm, possibly sucking up to get a landmark gas deal signed?
Bzibzioh
30 Apr 2010 #175
What do you think was that?

As far as I know they acknowledged the crime but stooped short for a formal apology.

I have to run now.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,297
30 Apr 2010 #176
Well, all good points. I believe that if you combine the time frame of the Russian empire with the Soviet empire then yes, much more than others.

I'd guess no, the modern Poles wouldn't like the kind of treatment you're talking about but the entire process of admitting war crimes is a fairly new phenomenon in Russia. Germany is still, to this day putting former Nazi officials on trial - something I agree with. I don't expect the 80 year olds to go to jail but I do want them to die knowing they died as war criminals. Has ANY soviet/russian soldier ever been put on trial for the atrocities they've committed? Yet you're expecting everyone to say, wow, Putin said "sorry about the 22,000, our bad... Let's be friends now, ok?"

Well, if I remember it correctly it was Putin who was the first official Russian ever bowing before the polish victims of Katyn.

Did that escape somehow your attention? *seriously puzzled*

Well, Yeltsin made the first admission. Putin attended the commemoration and yes it was appreciated.

I disagree with some of the vehemently anti-Russian posts here but at the same token I'm not going to be jumping for joy simply because after 70 years Russia finally admitted to the Katyn massacre... It's a slow process and people need to know they can rely on Russia being their true friend who'll disagree with them on occasion but will not be turning off the gas supplies, etc. to earn political points. In a way, the Russian governments have been their own worst enemies because had they played their cards right they'd have had some very loyal friends surrounding them but instead they've created mistrust no matter which direction they're looking at.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #177
It wasn't Putin, FYI, it was Gorbachev. Does "glasnost" ring a bell?

I don't remember him bowing to the victims personally...

simply because after 70 years Russia finally admitted to the Katyn massacre

There is nothing "simply" about it....Such a gesture can't be seen in a vacuum. Putin is the Leader of modern Russia. He stands for changed views and at least a will for reconciliation between the russian and polish people.

I'm sure he got much flak from the stalinists in Russia....what you are doing right now with downtalking/ignoring this gesture is supporting the real enemies of peace and Poland in Russia.

Those kind would prefer another freeze between your two peoples to any acknowledgment of past crimes!

It's a slow process and people need to know they can rely on Russia being their true friend

Why not going for civilized relationships before? Nations can't be "friends"...they can have different kind of relationships and be sometimes allies if they share the same interests. Friendship is for people....
Olga 1 | 330
30 Apr 2010 #178
Well, Yeltsin made the first admission.

Actually, it was Gorbachev:

In a way, the Russian governments have been their own worst enemies

In a way?
telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/6480227/Russia-simulates-nuclear-attack-on-Poland.html
Sasha 2 | 1,083
30 Apr 2010 #179
In many countries there were extremists, either pro-nazi, either pro-soviet and those joined accordingly.

Darun, here we've got basic distinction between pro-Soviets and pro-nazi speaking in general terms. Whatever underlay the WW2, whether it was M-R pact or something else one thing under no circumstance can be overlooked. The Soviets were nominally a victims, they defended, thereby obviously not all who go in your book as pro-soviets were extremists/criminals whereas all pro-nazi were (more or less). My grandpa who made shells for Soviet army under constant bombing. Was he pro-soviet? Kind of. He did his best to help his Rodzina (the SU) at hard times. Was he a criminal? Hell no. My uncle died in Belorussia aged 18 defending his homeland, the SU. Was he an extremist? Negative. Same actually goes I believe for the most of Soviet soldiers who defended their lands with a sad exception of few.

From your answer, it seems that you are trying to justify an invasion by the acts that followed from the invaded part, to justify the cause through pointing at the results.

Am I right in that you solely blame the SU for that all poor lambs joined the SS and Wermacht for the only reason of Soviet oppression? Romanian, Austrian soldiers along with German ones under Stalingrad... were they oppressed too? They simply thought the fascist would win and they would be able to share the pie. They were wrong. Although I don't like the price we paid to prove them wrong.

Am I right in that you find the response appropriate and well-deserved when Croatian ustashi killed Serbs or when UPA exterminated any disloyal civilians including Ukrainians, when finally Latvian SS burn alive Russian women/ kids and Polish POWs? You're now perking your finger in Russian bear who is on its slow and uneasy way of guilt's admission marvelously ignoring the snake within easy reach who has never felt guilty. What is that? Is that kind of self-castigation or what? If someone stole your property would that be a sufficient excuse for you to go on killing spree?

You were right many peoples collaborated with Nazi but there's always a tangible distinction between victims and criminals? So where those Baltic fascists brought to books? They're on the picture above doing alright. Where the information about them to learn? The best one can find in English wiki is precisely nothing.

Long story short... double standards that's what I actually don't like. I'm not interested in what they say as long as they honour fascist cutthroats.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,592
30 Apr 2010 #180
Romanian, Austrian soldiers along with German ones under Stalingrad… were they oppressed too? They simply thought the fascist would win and they would be able to share the pie.

Believe it or not Sasha, most of them had been also clueless 18 years old without a choice like your grandfather....


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