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Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn?


ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
11 Dec 2010  #1
More than 30000 Russians were tortured there by Polish authorities. And when you, my friends, are claiming for justice in the case of Katyn, you should remember these victims too. I think that Katyn is the righteous retaliation for your own faults.

Here they are:

Waldemar Rezmer, Zbigniew Karpus, Gennadij Matvejev, "Krasnoarmieitsy v polskom plenu v 1919-1922 g. Sbornik dokumentov i materialov" («Red Army POWs in the Polish POW camps 1919-1922»), Federal Agency for Russian Archives, Moscow 2004

uk.ask.com/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919-1924)?qsrc=3044
vetala - | 383    
11 Dec 2010  #2
A similar number of Polish POWs - about 20,000 out of about 51,000 - died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps.

Don't worry, ConstantineK, we don't blame you for this.
ender 5 | 400    
11 Dec 2010  #3
ConstantineK
From your link:

Due to epidemics raging at the time, made worse by the very bad sanitary conditions in which the prisoners were held, largely due to overcrowding, between 16,000 to 20,000 Soviet soldiers held in the Polish POW camps died, out of the total of 80,000 to 85,000 prisoners.
Some politicians and historians in Russia have tried to use these deaths to explain the motives for the Katyn massacre of Polish prisoners by the Soviet NKVD in 1940

noreenb 7 | 558    
11 Dec 2010  #4
A very interesting article. I liked it very much.
It can see it says Russian personnel of the Imperial Russian Army, and Russian civilians was captured by Germany during World War I and left on Polish territory after the end of the war;

It also says that "Due to epidemics raging at the time" the Russian people died.
They were in camps... They were prisoners...
Being a prisoner is extremely difficult. Many people can just go on a fence and to get a shot in their back, because they wanted to escape. Prisoners have to listen to their superiors. In other case they could lose their life.

Being in place like this You have to be soo clever and strong to survive! It depends in most cases if You were born under a lucky star or not!

There is not a matter of other people who will allow You to live (in many cases of course). There was a war. Conditions were, like it usually happens, in those times, very very hard.

Surviving was a matter of a character and power inside you. When You body dies it may mean that Your soul does not want to live in Your body anymore.

It's not a matter of anybody's fault IMPO.
I feel sorry for all people who had to be in places like this one. They are all in my memory and my heart.
Their nationality in not important. They were all victims of the War.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
11 Dec 2010  #5
Well, then the same perfect logic may be applied to those victims of Katyn. They simply died or let's say lost their lives trying to escape, isn't it? They were no more than war casualties.
ShawnH 8 | 1,502    
11 Dec 2010  #7
They simply died or let's say lost their lives trying to escape, isn't it? They were no more than war casualties.

That might be true except that they all seemed to have died trying to escape with their hands tied, about a foot away from a gun pointed at the back of their head, adjacent mass graves.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
11 Dec 2010  #8
That might be true except that they all seemed to have died trying to escape with their hands tied

Oh, please don't exaggerate the fact. As you possibly know, the shot in head is better death than being starved to death. You may consider this as a mercy.
ShawnH 8 | 1,502    
12 Dec 2010  #9
You may consider this as a mercy.

Maybe, but a more merciful act would have been to treat them per the Geneva Convention.
Wroclaw 45 | 5,403    
12 Dec 2010  #10
You may consider this as a mercy.

i consider it an unnecessary evil
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #11
Maybe, but a more merciful act would have been to treat them per the Geneva Convention.

So, I assume that Poles deserve this more than Russians?

i consider it an unnecessary evil

And I consider camps for Soviets as the same violation of human rights
ShawnH 8 | 1,502    
12 Dec 2010  #12
So, I assume that Poles deserve this more than Russians?

between 16,000 to 20,000 Soviet soldiers held in the Polish POW camps died, out of the total of 80,000 to 85,000 prisoners

Lets do some worst case math:

20,000 / 80,000 = 25% Death by disease / attrition while the balance seemed to live, probably fed to some degree. Not bad for a few years in captivity....

22,000 / 22,000 = 100% death by murder.

Seems to me the Poles were a tad more merciful.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #13
I see how they ripped open the belly and sewed a live cat there.

It seems to me that Poles simply less pedantic and more brutal than Russians.
ShawnH 8 | 1,502    
12 Dec 2010  #14
I see how they ripped open the belly and sewed a live cat there.

I read the content of the link you provided. Unfortunately it made no reference to sewing a live cat into an open human belly. Can't really comment on that.

It seems to me that Poles simply less pedantic and more brutal than Russians.

It seems to me that Russians are a little more creative in linking "relevant" information than others.
ender 5 | 400    
12 Dec 2010  #15
Konstantinek read some facts from links (there is no Russian version of 1st link) and watch youtube it's possible it's propaganda but keep in mind Russian didn't let leak any film from this time. Keep in mind most of Soviet POW would die in SU after Polish-Russian war anyway.

About 20,000 out of about 51,000 Polish POWs died in Soviet and Lithuanian camps[1] A similar number of Soviet POWs - from 16,000 to 20,000 out of 80,000 - perished due to disease and poor conditions in Polish camps in that period.

Polish prisoners and internees in the Soviet Union and Lithuania.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_prisoners_and_internees_in_the_Soviet_Union_and_Lithuania_(1919%E2%80%931921)

Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919-1924)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Poland_(1919%E2%80%931924)


1jola 14 | 1,883    
12 Dec 2010  #16
More than 30000 Russians were tortured there by polish authorities.

This persistant troll or shill can't even get the communist lies straight.

How does one justify Katyń? Not easy, but one must try, so they invent "crimes." From your own link, troll:

The issue was finally settled in 2004, where a joint team of Polish and Russian historians (prof. Waldemar Rezmer and prof. Zbigniew Karpus from Nicolaus Copernicus University in Toruń and prof. Gennady Matveyev from Moscow State University), after reexamining documents from Polish and Russian archives published their results (printed in Russia by Federal Agency for Russian Archives). Their findings show that the number of Russian POWs can be estimated at between 80,000 and 85,000, and that the number of deaths in the camps can be estimated from 16,000 (Karpus, Rezmer) to 20,000 (Matveyev).

In communist times, not so long ago, you couldn't even discuss Katyń, but the communists provided a substitute: Chatyń. This you could talk about.

A memorial complex commemorating the victims of the annihilation of the entire village of Chatyn (Khatyn), northeast of Mensk, during the German occupation of Belarus. In March 1943, Chatyn's 26 houses with their inhabitants (149 people, including 75 children) were burned by a German battalion. The vast memorial, spreading over 50 hectares, was opened in 1969 and became a major visiting place for local and foreign tourists and delegations.

belarus-misc.
/wiki/Khatyn_massacre

This kind of thing continues in some communist circles and thus you get threads like this. Commmunists in Russia still agrue that the Germans are responsible for Katyń. They will invent something else soon.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #17
Unfortunately it made no reference to sewing a live cat into an open human belly. Can't really comment on that.

Not that I would like to discuss exactly this fact, we both know that Poles could have committed such crime. Anyway it is from the same series as the facts that Poles allegedly were sawn up by Ukrainians.

TBH i dont think Constantinek is even russian, he's just a random twat, likely some old time anti-polish user like Harriet or Delphia.

You know that I am Russian. Above all, you flatter yourself when you are thinking that Poland is so great that somebody needs to kindle the polonophobic feelings. Believe me or not but I am interested to kindle your empty proud only!

Keep in mind most of Soviet POW would die in SU after Polish-Russian war anyway.

Then you should keep in mind that most of Polish officers would die during German invasion.

How does one justify Katyń? Not easy, but one must try, so they invent "crimes." From your own link, troll:

Oh, I like Poles!!! They are so..., so predictable. They eagerly pick their ulcers risking to suffocate everyone by their historical miasma, and lose interest immediately as soon as someone wants to make a hint that their own behavior cannot be considered as ideal
noreenb 7 | 558    
12 Dec 2010  #18
Saying that Tuchola is a roots of Katyń is a huge exaggeration.
You can't compare those two places. Among many because of the reason:
Russian there died because of epidemy, they were not killed by Polish soldiers
I will remember about Russian victims in Tuchola.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #19
Russian there died because of epidemy, they were not killed by Polish soldiers

Where is the difference? Starvation and epidemic on one side and merciful bullet on another one. We can call shoots in Katyn as epidemic too.
noreenb 7 | 558    
12 Dec 2010  #20
ConstantineK
We can call shoots in Katyn as epidemic too.

We can't. Shoots need performers of the action.
Epidemy is more like an event which is independent on anybody's will. It's difficult to stop because it expands without anybody's fault.
scottie1113 7 | 900    
12 Dec 2010  #21
We can call shoots in Katyn as epidemic too.

Yeah, it's called lead poisoning from Russian bullets fired by Russian soldiers. There's no comparison.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #22
Yeah, it's called lead poisoning from Russian bullets fired by Russian soldiers. There's no comparison.

Really? What would you say if somebody had placed you both behind the barbwire and starved you their? Where is the difference? I ask you!

Yes, I assume that our deeds in Katyn were atrocious, but at least we had idea. All these were considered as sacrifice for the future. But you, Poles, with your petty provincial crimes look twice more disgusting.
scottie1113 7 | 900    
12 Dec 2010  #23
Really?

Really. If you weren't so obtuse you'd see the obvious difference. And no, I'm not Polish, just objective, unlike you.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
12 Dec 2010  #24
More than 30000 Russians were tortured there by polish authorities.

Bookshit:

Soviet prisoners of war in the Polish camps in 1920:
...
noreenb 7 | 558    
12 Dec 2010  #25
ConstantineK
Really? What would you say if somebody had placed you both behind the barbwire and starved you their?

I'd say: you have no right to place me here. I have a human right to live and not to be hungry. So, I would say: let me go, please. I prefer to die because of hunger or epidemy than to be killed because of Your irresponsible action filled with violence and aggression.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508    
12 Dec 2010  #26
Why you are not interested in facts. Watch the film. There are International Red Cross Ducuments presented - 30 volumes of them in Geneva; Russion historians talking about their work with their Polish collegues - financed by Putin. The Polish-Russian group of historians wrote a thorough study on the issue - not published only on demand of Russian authorities. There are Russian archivists talking about requirenments of propaganda which, as always, have priority over truth. There are Polish documents: death certificats of Soviet POWs; POWs hospital cards stating who, when, and of what cause died. There are tombstones of POWs, descendants of Soviet POWs, now Polish citizens, and more... just watch.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259    
12 Dec 2010  #27
So, I would say: let me go, please.

In this case you will get a bullet in your head, since I would consider this as open disobedience. There would be neither violence nor aggression in my actions.
ShawnH 8 | 1,502    
12 Dec 2010  #28
we both know that Poles could have committed such crime.

And if my aunt had nuts, she'd be my uncle.
vetala - | 383    
12 Dec 2010  #29
If Katyń was a "

righteous retaliation

for those Soviet POWs, then what was Polish operation of NKVD a "righteous retaliation" for?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_operation_of_the_NKVD
The invasion of Poland in 1939? The deportation of several hundred thousand Poels to Siberia, of which at least a third died?

I understand that you are upset about the unfair label of 'barbarians' that some people are quick to give the Russians, but you won't achieve anything by invoking history for the simple fact that the number of Russians killed by Poles is miniscule in comparison to the number of Poles killed by Russians.
1jola 14 | 1,883    
12 Dec 2010  #30
Katyń massacres were not retaliation for anything. Stalin, just like Hitler at the same time, wanted to eliminate the Polish intelligensia. That's it. The Soviet NKVD, and the German Gestapo with the Eisatzgruppen, swapped lists of officers, teachers, clergy, public officials, policemen, etc., and proceeded to execute them in 1939 and 1940. Remember, the Russians and the Germans were partners then. Then, in 1941, the co-operation ended when then had a falling out.



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