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Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn?


delphiandomine 83 | 17,653
13 Dec 2010  #61
what did Ukraine have and what does it have today? no culture, no sovereignty, no money

Ukraine has plenty of culture. It's a shame that someone like you is so backwards (and obviously, the child of peasants that ran away to America - are your parents actually legally there?) that you can't appreciate it.

Then again, I've been there several times - when was the last time you were there?

No sovereignty? They've got plenty of it. Perhaps you might want to examine their current President's actual foreign policy rather than what's reported in the English press.

No money? I saw plenty of money going around in L'viv two months ago. Where's YOUR Mercedes, peasant?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
13 Dec 2010  #62
Ukraine has plenty of culture

Like what? Got any worthwile composers? World renown writers or scientists that you want to mention? Ukrainian nation is a cultural wasteland.

Then again, I've been there several times - when was the last time you were there?

Four months ago and i've been there a grand total of 11 times, got family there too, you sure you want to discuss Ukraine with me?

No sovereignty

None at all, they're a russian protectorate.

No money?

No, their GDP is about 55% of the polish one except that they have over 10 milion people more so no money.

I saw plenty of money going around in L'viv two months ago. Where's YOUR Mercedes, peasant?

I did not, what i saw were used polish cars that remember 80s and 90s, i havent seen so many Fiat126P or Polonez since i was a kid.

Got any more ignoramus trash you want to share with us?
ender 5 | 398
13 Dec 2010  #63
Got any more ignoramus trash you want to share with us?

give him a rest for couple days or posts at least. Please. I read his resent posts and they different to his usual. Looks like he actually read others posts. Something has changed.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
13 Dec 2010  #64
Ukraine has plenty of culture. It's a shame that someone like you is so backwards (and obviously, the child of peasants that ran away to America - are your parents actually legally there?) that you can't appreciate it.

Who do you know that has lived in the Ukraine?? I know a Russian scientist personally who moved from Russia to the Ukraine after the Chernobyl disaster he was one of many scientists over there. He lives here in the States now and has said in Russia and Poland there are theaters, operas, the arts, cafes there is culture nothing like that in the Ukraine. Someone who's an intellectual who's interested in those type of things said that.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
14 Dec 2010  #65
give him a rest for couple days or posts at least. Please. I read his resent posts and they different to his usual. Looks like he actually read others posts. Something has changed.

Little b*tch needs to be held accountable for his words, i see him making wild statements left right and center but i've been to Ukraine plenty of times, got pics, links, juicy info to share.

Its p*ss poor, dirty, dangerous and has no cultural life worth mentioning, western ukrainians look up to Poland as an example to follow, eastern ukrainians hate Poland as a "historical opressor" all ukrainians have a serious identity crisis on account of not having national history and they're something like 40 years behind us economically and about 100 years behind us civilisationally (if not more).

Poles drive used western cars 3-6 years old, Ukrainians drive used polish or russian cars 15+ years old, also quite a few roads aint paved, its a sh*thole.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
14 Dec 2010  #66
Parts of Ukraine belonged to Poland before the war, during the Commonwealth times 3/4 of Ukraine was Polish, Warsaw

That dose not mean that these parts were acquired by right.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
15 Dec 2010  #67
Who do you know that has lived in the Ukraine?? I know a Russian scientist personally who moved from Russia to the Ukraine after the Chernobyl disaster he was one of many scientists over there. He lives here in the States now and has said in Russia and Poland there are theaters, operas, the arts, cafes there is culture nothing like that in the Ukraine. Someone who's an intellectual who's interested in those type of things said that.

what did Ukraine have and what does it have today? no culture, no sovereignty, no money, so what exactly is amusing you Nathan? :-))))

Well, if Harry, BB or Delphi said to me this, I would be quite interested to prove them wrong. You know why? They are from countries which brought into the modern world multitude of recognized scientists, artists, performers, composers - you name it. More than others, no doubt. They might have been overbearing because of that. Somehow none of them ever said to me anything similar. But you, representative of the "intellectual center of Europe", which brought into our civilization "enormous amount of knowledge";), spatters your childish gibberish about how my country lacks culture.

What is amusing me?! What do you think - "intellectual center of Europe" in which you live, what else?! I feel safe with morons like you.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
15 Dec 2010  #68
"intellectual center of Europe"

Firstly i said Warsaw was the cultural center of Europe before the war. Secondly who the hell Ukraine has that can compare to scientists and discoverers like Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Copernicus, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz. Writers Adam Mickiewicz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Stanislaw Lem, film directors Andrzej Wajda, Roman Polanski. Moron. The problem with Ukrainians is they see things like they'd like them to be, not how they were or are twisting the truth.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
15 Dec 2010  #69
Parts of Ukraine belonged to Poland

Do not say parts of /insert a country/ belonged to /insert another country/. This way of thinking is a source of constant trouble.

Warsaw was the cultural center of Europe before the war. Secondly, who the hell (chose a country, mainly from the East) has that can compare to scientists and discoverers like Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Copernicus, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz; writers like Adam Mickiewicz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Stanislaw Lem; film directors like Andrzej Wajda, Roman Polanski. What's your answer? moron

Gombrowicz in his diary diagnosed this Polish malady, describing an anniversary celebration among émigrés, where:

...having sung the "Rota" and danced the "Krakowiaczek", the participants performed their patriotic duty by extolling the former superiority of Polish arms and the great poets, and praising Wawel Castle and Chopin, Copernicus and the May 3 Constitution.But I, wrote Gombrowicz, felt this ritual as if it were born of hell, this national mass became something satanically sneering and maliciously grotesque. For they, in elevating Mickiewicz, were denigrating themselves, with their praise of Chopin they showed themselves insufficiently mature to appreciate him, and by basking in their own culture, they were simply revealing their own primitiveness.

Has this really changed since the time it was written?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
15 Dec 2010  #70
Has this really changed since the time it was written?

Question is was what written true or Gombrowicz personal opinion, Gombrowicz was an anti-polish Jew, to be specific he was a practising zionist aka religious Nazi so his opinions hardly matter.

It does say volumes about you however that you quote a famouns anti-polish writer (a great writer yes but personally massively prejudiced against Poles being a Jew himself) with such satisfaction.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
15 Dec 2010  #71
What Ukrainians were there in 1939 to make an alliance with? Any names? Like some Ukrainian head of state, or, at least, some General Staff of the mighty Ukrainian army?

Ukrainian generals Poland might have considered to work with were: Andrij Melnyk, Yevhen Konovalets, Stepan Bandera, Taras Bulba-Borovets. But all of them were imprisoned by Polish regime in the interbellum.

Secondly who the hell Ukraine has that can compare to scientists and discoverers like Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Copernicus, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz. Writers Adam Mickiewicz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Stanislaw Lem, film directors Andrzej Wajda, Roman Polanski. Moron.

I don't like comparing. I will just list a few Ukrainians and a brief info and you tell me:

film directors Andrzej Wajda, Roman Polanski

Film directors:
Oleksander Dovzhenko

His film Earth was voted one of the ten greatest films of all time by a group of 117 film historians at the 1958 Brussels World's Fair and named one of the top ten greatest films of all time by the International Film Critics Symposium. After him is named Ukrainian cinema studio.

Roman Viktiuk

The only director of foreign origin who was awarded the International Prize of the Institute of Italian drama of the best embodiment of the Modern Drama (1997). Winner of the Theater Award "Maratea" Center for European Drama (1991). Received the "Kyiv Pectoral" and the award of the Union of Ukrainian theater "Triumph". In the United States included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century."

Writers Adam Mickiewicz, Henryk Sienkiewicz, Stanislaw Lem

Writers:
Taras Shevchenko, Ivan Franko, Lesya Ukrainka, Pavlo Zahrebelny, Mykhailo Bulgakow.

Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Copernicus, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz

Ivan Puliuj -

(Ukrainian: Іван Пулюй, German: Johann Puluj) (2 February 1845 in Hrymayliv, a village near Ternopil, Austria-Hungary - 31 January 1918 in Prague) was a Ukrainian physicist, inventor and patriot who has been championed as an early developer of the use of X-rays for medical imaging. His contributions were largely neglected until the end of the 20th century. He wrote on what is now known as X-rays more than decade before Roentgen while working in Vienna university. The titles of the following works might attest to it.

Oleksander Bohomolets (1881-1946)

was a famous Ukrainian physiologist, director of the Institute of Physiology in Kiev. His laboratories were located in Abkhazia and Georgia, where had a permanent research unit attached to the Academy of Sciences (1937).

Danylo Zabolotnij (1866-1929)

was a Ukrainian epidemiologist and the founder of the world's first research department of epidemiology. In 1927, he published one of the first texts in his field, Fundamentals of Epidemiology.
Zabolotnij conducted groundbreaking research on a number of infectious diseases, including cholera, diphtheria, dysentery, plague, syphilis and typhus, as well as on gangrene.

Solomija Krushelnytska - (23 September 1872 - 18 November 1952)

was one of the brightest Ukrainian opera stars of the first half of the 20th century. Her repertoire totaled 63 parts. In the history of music, Krushelnytska is known as an active promoter of the works of her contemporaries, and of Richard Wagner. In 1902 she won the hearts of Parisians in Lohengrin. In 1906 she enchanted the audience at Milan's La Scala in Richard Strauss's Salome, conducted by Arturo Toscanini. And so it went - in the theatres of Europe, Egypt, Algeria, Argentina, Brazil, Chile and others.

And now back to your 2 statements:

what did Ukraine have and what does it have today? no culture, no sovereignty, no money,

Who is twisting the truth and see things they'd like them to be? I have never said that some nation has no culture. Part of culture, to your knowledge, is having a bit of tact and understanding before making these childish statements of yours.
nott 3 | 594
16 Dec 2010  #72
'Generals'. Yes they were, in Bereza. Ukrainian rabid nationalists, detained for anti-Polish activity, along a couple of thousand of others. Nathan, let me point out that one single truth: had they been able to summon, say, a 100 thousand strong army, they'd have been free. Had they been able to summon your millions of soldiers, Poland would've been a Ukrainian province since then until now.

I will just list a few Ukrainians and a brief info and you tell me:

It's like kicking a puppy...

Oleksander DovzhenkoA Soviet screenwriter, producer and director of films
His paternal ancestors were Cossacks who settled in Sosnytsia in the eighteenth century, coming from the neighbouring province of Poltava.


Poltava means Russian Cossacs. Hardly a Ukrainian. Awarded Stalin Prize twice. Some Ukrainian patriot. And nobody heard of him outside USSR, which is a good thing, rather.

Roman Viktiuk not in Wiki. Must be too big, didn't fit.

Taras Shevchenko (1814-1861) Hats off, great poet. Founder of the Ukrainian language. In the 19th century. You know, Nathan, who is considered a founder of Polish literary language and when he happened to Poland? And why so late?

Ivan Franko (1856-1916) son of a village blacksmith of German ancestry.[1] His mother was of petty Polish noble origin. What did Sokrates say about where the civilisation came from... and who was he, actually?

Lesya Ukrainka (1871-1913) Pavlo Zahrebelny (1924-2009) pity nobody knows them outside your parish

Mikhail Bulhakow well, everybody knows him, right, Master and Margerita... and most people know he was a Russian. Why didn't you claim Mickiewicz, like the Lithuanians and Bielorussians do.

Ivan Puliuj (..) 1845-1918 (..) Ukrainian physicist, inventor and patriot who has been championed as an early developer of the use of X-rays for medical imaging. His contributions were largely neglected until the end of the 20th century. He wrote on what is now known as X-rays more than decade before Roentgen

Unrecognized genius, bad luck. I sympathise. You know Siemienowicz? A Polish pioneer of rocket-science, 17th century. I know the pain, Nathan, only mine is older by some 250 years :)

Oleksander Bohomolets (1881-1946) was a famous Ukrainian physiologist, director of the Institute of Physiology in Kiev. His laboratories were located in Abkhazia and Georgia, where had a permanent research unit attached to the Academy of Sciences (1937). He founded the Institute of Experimental Biology and Pathology and the Institute of Experimental Clinical Physiology at the Ukrainian Academy of Science in Kiev. Creator of Bohomolets serum.

Why so modest, Nathan. Why not fully quote what Wiki says about this serum:

He prepared a serum named after him (Bogomolets'serum) which was intended to prolong life by 140 years. He made such promises to receive continued financial support of his work from Stalin.

A cheat, Nathan. Just like you :)

Danylo Zabolotnij (1866-1929) was a Ukrainian epidemiologist and the founder of the world's first research department of epidemiology. In 1927, he published one of the first texts in his field, Fundamentals of Epidemiology.
Zabolotnij conducted groundbreaking research on a number of infectious diseases, including cholera, diphtheria, dysentery, plague, syphilis and typhus, as well as on gangrene.

Right. And that's all what Wiki is able to say about this great scientist.

Solomija Krushelnytska - (23 September 1872 - 18 November 1952) was one of the brightest Ukrainian opera stars of the first half of the 20th century.

Bravissima. Almost 3 pages in Wiki. See Pola Negri and Modjeska.

So, actually, your list goes down to a couple of people. And the most ancient of them was born in 1814. Some cultural tradition.

And now back to your statement:

Who is twisting the truth and see things they'd like them to be?

Part of culture, Nathan, is the attitude to reality. The ability to see things as they are, and not as you'd like them to be. Ukrainian is a young nation, trying to blow its achievements up out of proportion is ridiculous and immature. As suits, but the sooner you grow up, the sooner you will be treated seriously.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
16 Dec 2010  #73
Poltava means Russian Cossacs. Hardly a Ukrainian.

Any source where Poltava means Russian Cossacks? ;) Damn, I thought you really know something ;) Ukrainian dialect spoken in Poltava is considered the true Ukrainian language and Ivan Kotlyarevsky who wrote a burlesque on Virgil's "Eneida" and is considered the first writer of modern Ukrainian language was born in Poltava. Some famous Ukrainians born in Poltava, you, Einstein:

Symon Petliura
Yurij Kondratiuk
Hryhorij Skovoroda
Mykola Hohol
Panas Myrnyj
Poltava is more Ukrainian than our capital :) Famous battle of Poltava where Ukrainian hetman Ivan Mazepa fought with Swedes against Russians occurred there. Any other city, man, but Poltava. Don't ridicule yourself.

Must be too big, didn't fit.

Well, if opinion of Italian and American movie and theater critics, multiple international awards I mentioned is nothing to you, I have nothing else to say ;) This is the first time I hear than one has to be in Wikipedia to be somebody.

Taras Shevchenko (1814-1861) Hats off, great poet. Founder of the Ukrainian language. In the 19th century. You know, Nathan, who is considered a founder of Polish literary language and when he happened to Poland? And why so late?

Where did you get that Taras Shevchenko was a founder of Ukrainian language?

Taras Hryhorovych Shevchenko was a Ukrainian poet, artist and humanist. His literary heritage is regarded to be the foundation of modern Ukrainian literature and, to a large extent, the modern Ukrainian language.

You see the difference? You are not looking to learn, but to attack like a rabid dog. But before you do that - read carefully your Wikipedia, son :)

Awarded Stalin Prize twice. Some Ukrainian patriot. And nobody heard of him outside USSR

He was awarded Stalin Prize for making movies about WWII, more specifically his famous movie "Shchors". Because of that he was able to create movies and write with more freedom later. If you have a chance in-between trying to denigrate whatever I say to read "Ukraine in fire" writen by Dovzhenko, you will realize what a brave person he was and how he pushed Ukrainian idea through his cinema and literary works.

I know the pain, Nathan

I don't have any pain. Science is a competition and you have not only to excel in discovery, but in presentation as well to be recognized.

He prepared a serum named after him (Bogomolets'serum) which was intended to prolong life by 140 years. He made such promises to receive continued financial support of his work from Stalin.
A cheat, Nathan. Just like you :)

Why a cheat? I pointed the most important of his work as a scientist. Whether it was supported by Stalin who wanted to live 140 years is very irrelevant to me showing Pennboy famous Ukrainians and our culture. Imagine that scientists in Stalin regime had to have the state's support to feed their families and to conduct a research. Just like today.

Right. And that's all what Wiki is able to say about this great scientist.

Right now expension of the database about Ukraine and its scientists, writers, artists,... is constantly growing and in the near future we will definitely be up-to-date.

Bravissima

I know, S. Krushelnytska was not only an amazing opera singer, but a wonderful person too.

See Pola Negri and Modjeska.

Amazing people of great talent. You have something to be proud of, pal.

The ability to see things as they are, and not as you'd like them to be. Ukrainian is a young nation, trying to blow its achievements up out of proportion is ridiculous and immature. As suits, but the sooner you grow up, the sooner you will be treated seriously.

Wow, and that is the one who lies about Poltava and Shevchenko? You are more amazing than Modjeska and Negri ;) I don't blow achievements of my nation - I simply presented them. Show me where I exaggerated, please? I beg you to answer me these 3 points: Shevchenko-founder, Poltava-Russian Cossacks and my blowing out of proportions. Omission of answering them with honesty I am accepting as cowardness.

I was trying to be polite in regards to people mentioned by Pennboy, but you seem to ask me to be open. I will be. You say that only my parish knows some of the people I mentioned. You think anyone here knows who some Modjeska, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz or A. Wajda are if they are not Poles? I have never heard of these people. But I went online and checked them out without commenting on their greatness or not.

Mikhail Bulhakow well, everybody knows him, right, Master and Margerita... and most people know he was a Russian. Why didn't you claim Mickiewicz, like the Lithuanians and Bielorussians do.

I don't claim Mickiewych because he was a Lithuanian poet, so I see no reason to do that.
Kopernikus was a German astronomer and I don't understand why Pennboy tries to present him as Polish - jealousy?! I have no idea. Polanski is a renowned pedophile who shot "Pianist" movie, so what exactly are you proud of, frankly, beats me. His promiscuity?

'Generals'. Yes they were, in Bereza. Ukrainian rabid nationalists

My point was a possibility to cooperate in defending both Ukrainian and Polish lands. But I realized a few days ago that it was impossible. I think it was great the way it all occurred. I am really happy :)))
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
16 Dec 2010  #74
Gombrowicz was an anti-polish Jew

Witold Gombrowicz was a Gentile and an atheist. Calling this great Polish writer a Jew is very stupid.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Dec 2010  #75
Witold Gombrowicz was a Gentile and an atheist.

Learn your history, he was a Jew and said so himself.

Calling this great Polish writer a Jew is very stupid.

His mother was a Jew, his father was a Jew and he himself was a Jew, he was also rabidly anti-Polish which he admitted as well.

Gombrowicz was a rather troubled individual and being a great writer is arguable, even by scholars, famous yes, great? Not neccesarily, he was definitely anti-Polish.

Symon Petliura
Yurij Kondratiuk
Hryhorij Skovoroda
Mykola Hohol
Panas Myrnyj

No one knows them outside Ukraine Nathan, they're hardly famous.

Same with everything else, Ukraine is still a wasteland of civilisation no matter how you stretch it.
alexw68
16 Dec 2010  #76
His mother was a Jew, his father was a Jew and he himself was a Jew, he was also rabidly anti-Polish which he admitted as well.

Gombrowicz was a rather troubled individual and being a great writer is arguable, even by scholars, famous yes, great? Not neccesarily, he was definitely anti-Polish.

Well, Sok, this is total bollocks - though at least you did us the service of making the sheer inadequacy of your reasoning public. In the second sentence above, you imply that being pro-Polish is a necessary condition of being a great writer, to the extent that whatever other merits he may have - prosodic, stylistic, and more - are invalidated by any heterodox observation about the merits and demerits of his home country. For fuck's sake man, the guy's not some dreary Komsomol hack. Why do you and others on this forum consistently equate an enlightened spirit of enquiry with propagandising for the other side?

And for what it's worth, if you're honest about it, you should realise that even the patriotic writers of Poland are usually at their best when they're not being patriotic - the full-on patriotic stuff in literary terms, frankly, is as dull as ditchwater and vindicates any criticism Gombrowicz has about the provinciality of local writers' concerns. Frankly, if I'd been around in the early 1900s and Żeromski dropped by for coffee, I'd have sooner sawn my own arm off than allow it to open the door and admit the man to the salon.

Now, the Jewish origins stuff: likewise, the purest bullshit. There are bearded guys in mosques up and down Kandahar province who wouldn't insult their listeners' intelligence with that kind of brainless provocation. Gombrowicz was raised to a Catholic, landowning family and went to a Catholic school. Even if there was some degree of mythologising of the earlier life, he had moved to Argentina before the outbreak of war so no, there was no need to cover up any Jewish origins.

Anyway, his attitude to Jews is well-documented, so let's leave it to the man himself to help us draw the obvious conclusion. No, not that Gombrowicz is a pro- or anti-semite, because he is NEITHER in any trivial, simplistic way at all - but that you, Sokrates, despite your pretentious nickname, are the archetype of the dyspeptic, frustrated pseudointellectual whose air of contrived disdain purports to mask the paucity of your reasoning and the poverty of your imagination, but sadly draws attention to both.

Over to you, Witold (Diaries, 1953-5, pp. 80-1):

"I must also admit to you, Sir, that even I - though it is easy to conclude from my literature that I do not have much in common with anti-Semitism - occasionally let fly the words 'mangy cur' when a certain Semite irritates me. This happens because I am not a forced, rigid philo-Semite, but a relaxed one, with all the atavisms, my holy sir, of a Polish squire from the countryside."

There writes a man who looks upon his world without prejudice.
Zed - | 195
16 Dec 2010  #77
Sokrates is insane, :-(. Gombrowicz is an icon and will be one for a while :-).
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 Dec 2010  #78
Well, Sok, this is total bollocks

Glad you like it Alex.

you imply that being pro-Polish is a necessary condition of being a great writer

Not at all i imply he's a boring writer who became famous, he is also anti-polish but thats not relevant as far as his heavy pen is concerned.

Why do you and others on this forum consistently equate an enlightened spirit of enquiry with propagandising for the other side?

Nice phrases but case in point Gombrowicz consistently and without any logic or reason dragged all things polish through mud, he's hardly enlightened, rather a nasty prejudiced twat.

There writes a man who looks upon his world without prejudice.

Except Poland, Poles and all non Jews for whom he had loads of prejudice.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
16 Dec 2010  #79
if I'd been around in the early 1900s and Żeromski dropped by for coffee, I'd have sooner sawn my own arm off than allow it to open the door and admit the man to the salon.

Not in the early 1900s but some 20 years later, Żeromoski put in Cezary Baryka's mouth, the main protagonist of Przedwiośnie (The approach of Spring), the following words: Have you the courage of Lenin to destroy what's old and start the new? This was written just after the Polish-Bolshevik war and was not only a heterodoxy but a true heresy, even a provocation. Till the end of his life he was an object of hatred for nationalists.

Sensualism of Zeromski's prose is for many truly unbearable. But beside this he has some redeeming features; for example, I like his two-page-long complex, faulkneresque sentences. And what's the best in Żeromski? Not what most people are forced to read, but his Diary. I would recommend his Diary with a clear conscience as an excellent reading.

And if you talk about admitting the man to the salon... a literary one, or just a salon? then in both senses Żeromski wound not need to be invited because he literally lived there. Żeromski was granted the use of an apartment in the Royal Castle in Warsaw. As far as literary salon is concerned, he was regarded as a leading candidate for the Nobel prize, unfortunately died too early to get the prize. Not bad for a "pro-Bolshevik" writer.

And last. I think that Żeromski with his leftist attitude is much more intolerable for Socrates than Gombrowicz with his most often hilarious, jocular "anti-Polishness".
alexw68
16 Dec 2010  #80
Thanks for the tip, Adam. I owe Pan Stefan an apology - and a skinny latte, if he's up for it :)

Now you mention it, it's exactly what you note in Żeromski that I find actually rather more than bearable. There are huge passages of proto-stream-of-consciousness in Popioły that blur the distinction between intanglible reverie and solid place, an excellent motif to express longing for a country that, by not existing politically, had to exist in hearts and minds. (Sorry if that sounds sophomoric - unlike you guys I was never force fed any of this stuff; when I first got to PL in the mid-90s I decided to learn the language through reading the classics in the original - excruciatingly slow at first but we got there :) )

Having said that, even as an habitué of the salons I can't believe he wasn't just a little fusty on matters of national pride - but let me take up your recommendation of the diaries which I dare say will prove otherwise.

All the very best, A
nott 3 | 594
16 Dec 2010  #81
nott: Poltava means Russian Cossacs. Hardly a Ukrainian.

Why not. Cuts me down to size :)

You mean Poltawa where Russians beat crap out of Swedes? And out of Ukrainians too, as you say? :)

That's why Poltava was Russia for me. What where they doing there, actually, in the center of Ukraine? :)

nott: Must be too big, didn't fit.

I don't care to make a special research to find out that some Italians consider some Ukrainian worth their cup. The name is completely alien to me, and to everybody here, I bet. Nodoby to care about, obviously.

nott: Taras Shevchenko, Founder of the Ukrainian language.

Not really. 'Pre-modern Ukrainian' was 'Ruthenian.'

Ok, this is a bit of stretch. But show me something written in Ukrainian before the 19th century.

nott:Awarded Stalin Prize twice. Some Ukrainian patriot. And nobody heard of him outside USSR

Ok, maybe he was a brave man. A local hero, Nathan.

nott: A cheat, Nathan. Just like you :)

Why a cheat?

You tried to show it as some achievement.

Wow, and that is the one who lies about Poltava and Shevchenko?

Don't start with the 'lie' word, Nathan, or you'll end in the same bin with Harry.

I don't blow achievements of my nation - I simply presented them. Show me where I exaggerated, please?

You presented them from your local point of view, which is not necessarily recognized out of Ukraine, being hardly important. And you even tried to hijack a well known Russian author.

I beg you to answer me these 3 points:

Shevchenko-founder check, done
Poltava-Russian Cossacks check, done
blowing out of proportions done

Omission of answering them with honesty I am accepting as cowardness.

Feel free.

I was trying to be polite in regards to people mentioned by Pennboy, but you seem to ask me to be open. I will be.

I don't know who Drzewiecki was myself. You don't know Wajda because you lived in the USSR. Modjeska was famous, but long ago, Lukasiewicz no so very much, actually. Sklodowska is a rather basic name. But it all boils down to the fact that you can't even speak about Ukrainian culture before the 19th century.

Kopernikus was a German astronomer and I don't understand why Pennboy tries to present him as Polish - jealousy?!

He is considered Polish all over the world, due to the realities of the time. His ethnicity doesn't matter too much, as it didn't then. Doesn't matter much, Poland has a lot of spares.

Polanski is a renowned pedophile who shot "Pianist" movie, so what exactly are you proud of, frankly, beats me. His promiscuity?

He shot hell of a lot of other movies before, and those done in Poland are known in the West too. Wherever he pokes his prick in is rather irrelevant.

My point was a possibility to cooperate in defending both Ukrainian and Polish lands.

My point is there was nobody to cooperate with. Even if those 'general's were set free, they'd need some soldiers to command, which they didn't have, and some equipment to brandish, which they didn't have neither. The whole Ukraine that might've been considered an ally by anybody fitted comfortably in one small Polish camp. And in some Soviet camps, I presume.

I think it was great the way it all occurred. I am really happy :)))

And that puzzles me a bit. Poland had a chance, used it. Ukraine had a chance, buggered it magnificently. What with those millions of soldiers. And you are happy :)

Nathan, I do not want to fight you. My family comes from near the Ukrainian border, I should be naturally inclined to hate your guts, I don't. They don't neither, times has changed. Now they buy Ukrainian trade and employ Ukrainian people, and everybody is happy. Poles living a bit more to the West don't even understand the Ukrainian hate, and feel muchly disappointed that the only reasonable potential ally is looking to Russians. But if so, then so be it, we don't really need Ukraine.

It's off topic here. You want to develop it, make a thread, I'll show up. Just try to start with something not exactly infuriating.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
17 Dec 2010  #82
You want to develop it, make a thread, I'll show up.

What for, nott? So I waste my time on someone like you who doesn't even give a f*ck to do some research before making a claim? It is useless. I lost my interest after your last post. It is like talking to c*** sokrates. This is my last post here.

You mean Poltawa where Russians beat crap out of Swedes? And out of Ukrainians too, as you say? :)
That's whyPoltava was Russia for me. What where they doing there, actually, in the center of Ukraine

Yes, it is exactly where Russians beat the crap out of Ukrainians and Swedes. I don't deny it a bit.
But do you understand how ridiculous you sound by claiming Poltava as a Russian city and then saying they were in the center of Ukraine? Can't you at least make up something credible, glue up nonsense in a way that will make it interesting to read your BS?

In addition, what did Germans do just 3 weeks after crossing the Oder in Peremyshel'? Answer that question and it might help you with the one you gave me. You have been had in just 3 weeks - the mighty army which needed no allies ;) You forgot, porbably, to use your tongues as a fighting tool. You would be, no doubt, victorious ;)

The name is completely alien to me, and to everybody here, I bet.

"In the United States Viktiuk is included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century." Well, but you are the expert, right?! ;)

I don't care to make a special research to find out

That's what I mean: you talk much, but what you are talking you cannot back up. It is like being an intellectual ho.

or you'll end in the same bin with Harry.

It would be my pleasure to talk to someone intelligent for a change. I am tired of this cr*p.

Not really. 'Pre-modern Ukrainian' was 'Ruthenian.'
Ok, this is a bit of stretch.

Why are you playing stupid? :) Be positive - lie till your pants drop - like c*** sokrates does. Learn to be a ho like him.

Even if those 'general's were set free, they'd need some soldiers to command, which they didn't have, and some equipment to brandish, which they didn't have neither.

UPA had around 400,000 people in 1944 - not exactly soldiers, but better than 3 weeks Polish defense which had guns, tanks, planes, etc. in 1939 for sure. UPA wasn't blessed by huge British support which Poland received in form of weapons, food, hide-out for Polish government with money it collected over 20 years. Sometimes, when I read your cries over how Britain allegedly missed to invite your representative for the parade, it makes me laugh at the cheek you have towards the hand which fed you.

What with those millions of soldiers. And you are happy :)

I am happy to be free and proud and greatful to all those who fell for my country. I am happy that there was no alliances I was thinking of before, because it would be even worse. So, it is really relieving.

My family comes from near the Ukrainian border, I should be naturally inclined to hate your guts, I don't

Poles living a bit more to the West don't even understand the Ukrainian hate

Man :), you are something. Read my post before the last one and yours with c*** sokrates. Which ones carry hate and arrogance? Mine or yours and c***'s? Whatever you said about "natural inclination" only underlines it.

But show me something written in Ukrainian before the 19th century.

But it all boils down to the fact that you can't even speak about Ukrainian culture before the 19th century.

Peresopnitske Gospel - an outstanding monument manuscript old Ukrainian language and art of the XVI century. One of the first Ukrainian translation of the canonical text of the four Gospels.

For the oppressed ideology representatives of Ukrainian society felt the need to assert living Ukrainian language in religious texts. At that time quite a few translations were made: Chetiya - 1489, Volyn Gospel - 1581, Krehivskyy apostle -XVI century et al. But the most remarkable monuments of the language point of view was the translation of the canonical Gospels Peresopnytsia.

Peresopnitske Gospel was written in 1556-1561 and Ukrainian presidents take an oath on it during the inauguration. There is some "Chetiya" translation mentioned which was made in 1489 into old Ukrainian language. Currently there is no information about it online. So it makes even XV century.

uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%BF%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B5_%D0%84%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B3%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%96%D1%94

You know perfectly I can't fight with all c***s on PF. There are just a few, but it is quite handful. And, frankly, I am not interested. I am here to talk or to learn something new. If you think that it is amusing to be a c***, well, go ahead. I said what I wanted. If you are interested in a normal dialogue, then step up like a man.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
17 Dec 2010  #83
But do you understand how ridiculous you sound by claiming Poltava as a Russian city

Why ridiculous? It was at the time inhabited and developed by Russians who also contributed to its current form, just like Poles built Lwów Russians developed Poltava.

"In the United States Viktiuk is included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century." Well, but you are the expert, right?! ;)

Who the hell is Viktiuk???

UPA had around 400,000 people in 1944

UPA had 20.000 active members and some 40.000 supporters in 1944 making it a rather small organisation.

UPA wasn't blessed by huge British support which Poland received in form of weapons,

Which is why instead of fighting enemy soldiers like Poles did Ukrainians fought unarmed women and children heroically torturing entire villages to death.

If you are interested in a normal dialogue, then step up like a man.

You mean we're supposed to play along with you making up fictional ukrainian history or presenting some obscure small time and rare ukrainian achievements as world scale successes that happen all the time?

Here's the truth for you mate, Ukraine has no scientific, cultural, military or political achievements, trying to reinvent your history wont help here.

Thats why Ukraine celebrates UPA who were a bunch of war criminals, thats your only military achievement of the XX century, sure they mostly killed unarmed Poles but when your nation is so poor as far as heritage is concerned you're not picky, even if for every 1000 civilians UPA murdered they killed one german soldier sh*tting in the woods away from his unit thats heroic enough for ukrainian historians:)
Ironside 48 | 9,750
17 Dec 2010  #84
That dose not mean that these parts were acquired by right.

the Russian talks about rights - hilarious!

Has this really changed since the time it was written?

Obviously not, as you are quoting a fringe and weird author as an authority you are only perpetuating a practice described as malady by the man himself. You really should be ashamed of yourself!
nott 3 | 594
17 Dec 2010  #85
nott: You want to develop it, make a thread, I'll show up.
What for, nott? So I waste my time on someone like you who doesn't even give a f*ck to do some research before making a claim?

I did, as in other cases, just didn't want to embarrass you too much. I didn't really care to go far beyond 'promoting gay love on stage', 'the most scandalous, thus best-selling', 'Russian director'. You want to claim him, your choice, just show me what he really did besides showing nude men in public.

It is useless. I lost my interest after your last post.

Feels bad to loose everytime, innit.

This is my last post here.

In the PF? Good.

I admitted my mistake, I do it again now, won't repeat it again. You want it chiselled in marble, get your own tools and material.

In addition, what did Germans do just 3 weeks after crossing the Oder in Peremyshel'?

They didn't get to Peremyshel' before summer 1941, boy. I don't know what they did in this shithole, possibly killed somebody. Not really interested, loads of people got killed those times.

You have been had in just 3 weeks

You have been had before anybody ever dreamed about Ukraine. Some achievement.

"In the United States Viktiuk is included in the category of "50 people in the world that shaped the second half of the twentieth century." Well, but you are the expert, right?! ;)

I bet you got tons of links with theatrical reviews about him shaping the century. Pity they don't show up in Google.

UPA had around 400,000 people in 1944 -

Nah, Nathan. They had 988 thousand, latest research by the National Historical Panel on UPA. The NHPUPA has just published it, you're out of touch. And they expect to get to 1.2 million by spring, and to 1.8 by Orthodox Christmas next Year, or maybe even to 2.1, if researching is good.

That's how you do it, Nathan. Just doubling the highest known guesstimate will take you nowhere, contemporary Ukrainian history is highly competitive. Dog eat dog, and you are a sorry amateur, face that.

not exactly soldiers,

Oh really. And not exactly in 1939. Huge Polish mistake not to befriend them in time to fight the German invasion.

nott: What with those millions of soldiers. And you are happy :)

This is not funny any more Nathan. They didn't die for your country. Most of them died as Soviet kanonenfutter, and the result of their deaths was the Ukrainian SSR, where your language was prosecuted. The same UkSSR, where millions of people died of forced starvation. Tragic, nothing to be fvcking happy about.

nott: My family comes from near the Ukrainian border, I should be naturally inclined to hate your guts, I don't

MY family still remembers UPA, first hand, Nathan. You better shut up on the topic.

You know what I remember the most? 'And he's been a good neighbour, helpful'.

nott: But show me something written in Ukrainian before the 19th century.

Written in Ruthenian. You may claim it as old-Ukrainian, and actually, from what I know, it had already split from the pre-Russian Ruthenian, but it's Ruthenian still. Nobody dreamt about Ukrainian before 19th century.

But I give you that, you are entitled to search for roots, and this root is quite feasible. Only I was thinking about something like a novel, or a poem. Original literature, you know, not a translation of a millennia old foreign book.

You know perfectly I can't fight with all c***s on PF.

Oh you can, and you might find allies here. Only you chose wrong tactic, not unlike most of Ukrainians in 1918, and in 1940ies. You want to fight everybody and win more than everything, so everybody stomps on you.

I repeat, most Poles don't understand Ukrainian hatred, and are rather sympathetic. Use it. The latest experiences are good, there's already much to build on.

Think of it, Nathan. Take a break, see a movie, relax.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
18 Dec 2010  #86
Who the hell is Viktiuk???

He is "pederast"
Plato - | 10
18 Dec 2010  #87
20,000 / 80,000 = 25% Death by disease / attrition while the balance seemed to live, probably fed to some degree. Not bad for a few years in captivity....

spanish flu?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
18 Dec 2010  #88
More due to the fact that hygiene and feeding conditions in the Red Army were atrocious, many of the Russians cought by the Poles were already hungry and ill.

Poles provided meals of approximately 2000 calories per man per day which is adequate but the state that the russian soldiers were in meant that many of them would die, especially since most polish doctors were at the front treating polish troops.

In short russian claims that Russians were killed/starved/mistreated are a fat lie meant to counterweigh the many russian crimes on the Poles during WW2 Katyń being the most famous of them.
mytnica - | 7
24 Dec 2010  #89
Tuchola was not the root of Katyn.
In Sept/Oct.1920, my grandfather served in a small military detail,that handled the burial of 2,000-3,000 Polish P.O.W.'s who were tortured,then brutally murdered by the Bolsheviks.

The P.O.W's were left to rot,in a forest clearing,near a railway siding.
The Bolsheviks left behind a banner,declaring that some day, they would return for "the rest of them!".
The Bolsheviks committed this war crime,while they winning the 1919-1920 war against Poland.
Through out my Grandfather's Polish Military service,his commanding officers offered many times to send him to Officers school.
My Grandfather turned down these requests,and remained a NCO Lance Corporal. He always remembered what the Bolsheviks did in 1919-1920.
Katyn in the Spring of 1940,was only the logical conclusion of Bolshevik/Communist idealogy of class warfare.
Tuchola,was unfortunately the result of many factors,hunger,disease,lack of sanitation,lack of housing facilities.
A tragic event.
But,Poland was the Eastern Front during W.W.I,the country was stripped bare of almost everything by Russia,and the Central Powers.
During,1918-1920 2-3 milllion Polish citizens were on the brink of famine. Only thing that saved these people was Hubert Hoover's war relief efforts.

Equating Tuchola,with Katyn is intellectually,morally, incorrect.
Borrka 37 | 594
24 Dec 2010  #90
I can hardly imagine better documentation than Isaac Babel's novel "Red Cavalry".
Babel, during the Polish-Bolshevik conflict an active war correspondent (and Czeka member) gave a perfect description of mass killings of Polish POWs.
His novel was published in millions - nobody expected defeat of Bolsheviks.


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