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Tuchola in Poland - roots of Katyn?


Velund 1 | 385
6 Feb 2011  #181
at least in ideas

That was one of main problems of SU. Great looking ideas, but practical implementation....

May be my translation of following quote is not perfect, but... "Revolutions is planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits".
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
6 Feb 2011  #182
May be my translation of following quote is not perfect, but... "Revolutions is planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits"

It is not so in case with Russian Revolution. There were enough enthusiasts even at the end of the span
Ironside 47 | 9,622
6 Feb 2011  #183
Russian Revolution had many participants but the ultimate power had been garbed by the ruthless bastard and traitors with help of German gold.

Great looking ideas, but practical implementation...

That your Russian problem, looking for ideas and then trying to implement them in real life - it always end in the same way - disaster, because ideas are just directions not rules to be imposed on others by force.

Revolutions is planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits"

.
Revolutions are planned by maniacs, preformed by idiots, and regime uses bastards to enjoy fruits of ultimate power.
Velund 1 | 385
6 Feb 2011  #184
That your Russian problem, looking for ideas and then trying to implement them in real life - it always end in the same way - disaster, because ideas are just directions not rules to be imposed on others by force.

This is not only russian problem. There is lots of cases when same mistake was done without russians ever been close.
NomadatNet 1 | 457
6 Feb 2011  #185
Velund: Revolutions is planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits".

Revolutions are planned by maniacs, preformed by idiots, and regime uses bastards to enjoy fruits of ultimate power.

In this case, geniuses are maniacs, enthusiasts are idiots and bastards are tools to enjoy the fruits of regime.. Then, who is ultimate power here? Bastards.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
6 Feb 2011  #186
Revolutions is planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits".

Geniuses may well be bastards.

Revolutions are planned by maniacs, preformed by idiots, and regime uses bastards to enjoy fruits of ultimate power.

Does that mean that you wouldn't support revolution in nowadays Russia (as there don't seem to be any legal way to overthrow putin's regime)?

There is lots of cases when same mistake was done without russians ever been close.

Like what?
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
6 Feb 2011  #187
Velund: Counter-Revolutions are planned by geniuses, performed by enthusiasts, and bastards use their fruits".Geniuses may well be bastards.

Ironside: Counter-Revolutions are planned by maniacs, preformed by idiots, and regime uses bastards to enjoy fruits of ultimate power

Would you agree or disagree with this?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
6 Feb 2011  #188
Does that mean that you wouldn't support revolution in nowadays Russia (as there don't seem to be any legal way to overthrow putin's regime)?

Yes, because you have no real alternative to the current regime.
Anything you could come out with would have to be backed by force, and that means that it would be a regime as well, maybe a more efficient, and would take care of infrastructure in Russia.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
7 Feb 2011  #189
Yes, because you have no real alternative to the current regime.

No people with the proper agenda?

nything you could come out with would have to be backed by force, and that means that it would be a regime as well

Can you elaborate? Is that because we simply do not have a candidate with liberal/democratic enough views or there's no narodnaja vol'ja (people's will) to provide the right one with such credentials?

New style revolutions like those in Georgia and Ukraine were practically bloodless. They were hardly backed by force. Don't you believe in similar scenario for Russia?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
7 Feb 2011  #190
Yes, but all habits die. And by your own admission you are a great fan of the soviet past.

What I meant to post was: Yes, but old habits die hard, go to look at what i write more often?

See this is what i had in mind:

but there are no doubts that that was one of the greatest civilizations the world had ever witnessed, far more greater and human, at least in ideas, than so called Western one and American in particular.

You see nobody in their right mind could possibly say that, and the millions of lives lost is just the one of the many reasons.

The Russian revolution and Stalinism is humanity's answer to Some mothers eating their young in nature.

BTW: you are not trying to win the longest thread competition by any chance are you Costi?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
7 Feb 2011  #191
No people with the proper agenda?

What would be a proper agenda?Everyone deem to have a right, doesn't make it so.
I admit that nowadays government in Russia has ex-KGB (generally speaking)background, they won the contest with globalists to rule Russia by putting bombs in towns and blaming Chechen's. I would not hold that against them is a textbook action, but what damn them is their inability to mange and organize properly,institutions and to build and maintain infrastructure.

Can you elaborate? Is that because we simply do not have a candidate with liberal/democratic enough views or there's no narodnaja vol'ja (people's will) to provide the right one with such credentials?

Yes, I think that there is no people's will to support someone who will be a ********* liberal - in the eyes of the people)ruler, they would settle for a new boss though.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
7 Feb 2011  #192
The Russian revolution and Stalinism is humanity's answer to Some mothers eating their young in nature.

Well, I should confess. My mind is slightly bifurcated. One side tells that Russian revolution was absolutely unavoidable, it tells me that revolution was an extreme pitch of Russian history, but another one feels passion to such men like Constantine Pobedonostsev who had fiercely opposed revolution but somehow, ironically, brought it nearer.

As for Stalin, certainly he was genius, he stopped revolution and he reshaped old Russian Empire.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
7 Feb 2011  #193
to rule Russia by putting bombs in towns and blaming Chechen's

I wish I had any evidence of that.

but what damn them is their inability to mange and organize properly,institutions and to build and maintain infrastructure.

I believe their main task was to enrich themselves at the expense of the Russians which they had perfectly coped with. They are still doing that, remaining at the helm tooth-and-nail.

What in your mind the Russians should do since there's no democratic way to rid of them?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
8 Feb 2011  #194
What in your mind the Russians should do since there's no democratic way to rid of them?

Well, the Russian will do whoever the boss tell them to do. How to get rid off current government? Who would support you?
Its a difficult and complex question.
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
10 Feb 2011  #195
As for Stalin, certainly he was genius, he stopped revolution and he reshaped old Russian Empire.

Not really, he was simply more treacherous, unscrupulous and devious than the others. Those who had Russia's genuine interest at heart or wanted to implement communism with a human face were liquidated. That is hardly genius, although it does require an undeniably low morality or an high amorality.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
18 Feb 2011  #196
Its a difficult and complex question.

It is. :) Though I assumed considering your previous pretty serious allegations, you would have an answer on this one too.

Who would support you?

I strongly believe there are many people who would.

Well, the Russian will do whoever the boss tell them to do

Which one?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
18 Feb 2011  #197
Though I assumed considering your previous pretty serious allegations,

What allegation? Only my opinion plus some knowledge of Russia.

you would have an answer on this one too.

Ah but I don't watch Russia that closely, so I don't know the answer.

I strongly believe there are many people who would.

Is there enough of them ?Remember that people in charge come from certain environment.

Which one?

Most of them!
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
18 Feb 2011  #198
I strongly believe there are many people who would.

Thank you Shura, I made 25 clicks for "NO"
Sasha 2 | 1,083
19 Feb 2011  #199
What allegation? Only my opinion plus some knowledge of Russia.

Well... like this one:

Sasha:
Which one?

Most of them!

Whilst you still don't watch Russia that closely. :)

I strongly doubt you have surveyed even ten Russians in your life to assert that, however assuming that

Well, the Russian will do whoever the boss tell them to do.

is true it would really nice to listen how would an average Pole behave in the situation. Would he still obey whatever was told to do or?..

Thank you Shura, I made 25 clicks for "NO"

And you Kostia... would you be so kind as to explain to me the phenomena of putinoids' existence over thirty (I could have said "over twenty" which would have been more plausible but I consider your age)? I thought that all those bed-time stories about stability and (ba)nanotechnologies had sunk into oblivion, hadn't they? What makes you support the guy?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Feb 2011  #200
Union had many defects

You are one of them. And since even after 20 years you are still dumb enough to profess the following:

there are no doubts that that was one of the greatest civilizations the world had ever witnessed, far more greater and human, at least in ideas

What is an idea without life? I can put so many soap-bubbles in your arseanal that you can't imagine, but am I then the most civilized person if the next thing I do is slit your throat? If you call a civilization a system of terror, depravity, hunger, rule by bastards and sociopaths which existed barely 73 years and managed to murder over 100 million people just of its own will, which haven't achieved anything but produce morons like you, which in 1980s was so bankrupt in spite of stealing billions of dollars in property confiscated, salaries never paid, standards of life on the level of some resources-deprived desert country, system which invented work-days where people worked just for a signature on a piece of toilet paper which could later be used to wipe your soapy ar*e. This is a civilization? Empire which after stealing billions from people and producing nothing but rockets had people waiting for hours in line to get a piece of bread? But again the worst it could do was to artificially select idiots like you who are brainwashed (I assume you had some before, though I doubt it) to the point that even after reading the facts not available in your "civilized" Soviet Union, they keep on salivating their baseless communistic axioms.
Ironside 47 | 9,622
20 Feb 2011  #201
I strongly doubt you have surveyed even ten Russians in your life to assert that,

You mean did I ask them? Sure I did not!

is true it would really nice to listen how would an average Pole behave in the situation.

What is the point of the question? Russia is a different country than Poland, and even if few intelligentsia idealist are in opposition, so what? Who will support them before they become a government? Few lost individuals and among them FSB agents !?

You are kidding yourself, the only chance would be if government in Russia crumbles, and country will be in chose, but no guarantee even if you will have monies - you know where from:)
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
20 Feb 2011  #202
And you Kostia... would you be so kind as to explain to me the phenomena of putinoids' existence over thirty (I could have said "over twenty" which would have been more plausible but I consider your age)? I thought that all those bed-time stories about stability and (ba)nanotechnologies had sunk into oblivion, hadn't they? What makes you support the guy?

Sasha, Sasha.....There is only one problem with people like you.... Yes you are educated and agreeable, liberal and people-loving, however, at the same time you have some vague but typical lack in your character. You always want reforms and results just now, immediately. That is wrong.

You are too far away from common people. There is only one good expression to describe your social stratum - "sranaya intelligentsiya". You cannot understand one simple truth that all reforms in such state like Russia need to pass several stages:

1. Government should realize that something is wrong
2. They should discern what is wrong specifically
3. They should formulate the idea of reform
4. THey should surge this idea into society
5. This idea should be discussed within the social groups
6. It should be adopted
7. and then carried out

All reforms of Peter I (for example) where conceived, lets say 200 years before his birth. Now we observe that point 4 is executing.

You are one of them. And since even after 20 years you are still dumb enough to profess

Oh, dear Profane, your annoyance quite delighted me. Certainly you could not be more sensitive to the wrong Union has done had it done it to you personally. Please tell us your expirience and the history of your "Bandera" family. I will not be surprised that your grand-grandfather had collaborated with Hitler and then was hiding in the forests like beastly being.

Empire which after stealing billions from people and producing nothing but rockets had people waiting for hours in line to get a piece of bread?

Yes, now I understand why Malorussians are trying to stay within Russian premisses with all their strength...They just want to share bread with their Russian brothers.

Dear Nathan,

The problem is not that your business is painting; alas, it is more complex and lies more deep in your tumultuous character. Soviet Union had given you both education and opportunity to be scientists, poets or artists. However you preferred to be "free" and "independent". The result of this choice is evident both for me and you.

Do you think, my good friend, that I need your reprimanding to make me feel pity for you, when I know that you are suffering having lost all these opportunities? And all your bursts of rage serves me as evident of your sorrow....
Sasha 2 | 1,083
23 Feb 2011  #203
You mean did I ask them? Sure I did not!

Too bad. Had you knew one, your views might have been altogether different from what you're producing.

What is the point of the question? Russia is a different country than Poland, and even if few intelligentsia idealist are in opposition, so what? Who will support them before they become a government? Few lost individuals and among them FSB agents !?

I'll tell you what the point is. Having understood that Russia is a different from Poland coutry (as much as two different countries could be different), I'm yet asking you to name those fabulous distinctions, that makes you think that a Russian would do whatever he's told to, while a Pole supposedly wouldn't.

You are too far away from common people. There is only one good expression to describe your social stratum - "sranaya intelligentsiya". You cannot understand one simple truth that all reforms in such state like Russia need to pass several stages:

Kostia, with all due respect I must say that you’ve failed to produce anything substantive against my harmless questions. Shall I say it again? Why did you get to waffle as only I hit a raw nerve of your hero or did I touch that of yourself perhaps? Why does it always take to twist everything to keep the overall picture fitting your pink world of the unleashed putinism? Why not just be a dab realistic?

Reforms you say? Well… not that I was waiting or not but Russia was pretty much drastically reformed in comparison to what we’d had at Eltsyn’s reign. The question is were those reforms any good for Russia. You can already give a candid answer to this one. By no means this was good. It made happy but a small group of near-the-power people with their pitiful apologists who are in the first place deserve the name “srannaja intelligencia” in the meaning of the “fake”, “plastic”. Those who you’re apparently trying to recall with the expression are all gone with the commies en masse. Nowadays has given us an altogether diverse image of “intelligentsia”. This is just the ones who want to think free, which I set equal to being progressive.

Why do you say that I’m far from so-called “commoners”? Maybe I am one. Oh yeah, I actually believe I am. Do you think they don’t need to eat, read, create, develop themselves the way they want, have a president they want as well as you or me?

And the list you came up with… What the heck has it to do either with our discussion or with today’s Russia? The government steals milliards; the corruption is beyond the scope of comprehensible; the court is a circus one may come with popcorn to; the functionaries of the ruling party becomes clowns when it comes to serious debates (see the recent debates Navalny/Fedorov). And you say “government should realize…” That’s ridiculous. How long did it take to a literally mad man Saakashvili to reform the police? Do you honestly believe we’re gonna have anything similar after the 1st of March?
Ironside 47 | 9,622
24 Feb 2011  #204
Had you knew one,

Gee again the same - people we are discussing about civilisations, cultures and general trends, not a individual dastards !

I knew a few Russian, **** you are like fuzz, cause he didn't like a massage he attacked the messenger - yes fuzz I know a few Americans, so what ?
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 Feb 2011  #205
one simple truth that all reforms in such state like Russia need to pass several stages:

1. Government should realize that something is wrong
2. They should discern what is wrong specifically
3. They should formulate the idea of reform
4. THey should surge this idea into society
5. This idea should be discussed within the social groups
6. It should be adopted
7. and then carried out

Damn, it is a long, long way to get some decent reforms. I bet billioners on the top will be able to "discern what is wrong specifically" ;) I agree with Sasha here - "srannaja intelligencia" is more people of your caliber who got a cozy job sucking to some bureaucratic lackey and don't giving a sh*t of what is happening to the rest 90% of the population. I hope Russia will have some revolution some day which will bring democracy to its people. I have the same hope towards my coutry too.

Soviet Union had given you both education and opportunity to be scientists, poets or artists

Name me one country in Europe where there is no opportunity to become a scientist, an artist or a poet. Soviet Union sent Ukrainian artists and poets to Siberia, many of them were tortured and killed in prisons. Scientists were advanced only in the fields of rocket-building while medicine was on the level which makes one cry even to recall. Many people who graduated in the Soviet Union had no perspectives with their knowledge in the outside world because it was not competitive. That limited knowledge was worth something in the dump-hole which was called Soviet Union, but nowhere else.
OP ConstantineK 26 | 1,259
4 Mar 2011  #206
Damn, it is a long, long way to get some decent reforms.

And what do you want? Reforming big country requires patience and perseverance but the result will be amazing!

I agree with Sasha here - "srannaja intelligencia" is more people of your caliber who got a cozy job sucking to some bureaucratic lackey and

I like Sasha (for he is Russian and he is Sa-a-a-asha-a-a), but certainly he is not "founder of Marxism-Leninism" and, therefore, his "new reading" of Lenin's words cannot be valued higher than the sense Lenin himself put in term "sranaya intelligencia".

Let me give you brief lesson from "Short History of VKPb", for it seems to me I should complete your education. Apparently you were not as good in schooling in your past as your are skillful in painting now. Under the term "sranaya intelligentsiya" he (Lenin) means always reflecting, always dreamy intellectuals in Russia. They have ideas, they have ideals but, alas, always lack guts to resolve. I can only hope that paint roller "artists" IN independent Ukraine still able to read Gogol not in vulgar Surzhik but in pure Russian. Is that so? Well, the character of "Manilov" from his "Dead Souls" is perfect example of such intellectuals.

Soviet Union sent Ukrainian artists and poets to Siberia, many of them were tortured and killed in prisons.

Please tell me whom? Who knows, it might be well happened they were so "talented" that Soviet Union rendered a good service having delivered world civilization and culture from such artists and poets.

Scientists were advanced only in the fields of rocket-building while medicine was on the level which makes one cry even to recall.

Oh! What are you saying, babe? Even in the beginning of XX cent south of Ukraine permanently suffered from manifold cholera eruptions. And what is now? Hope that you are doing well?! However, I dare to conjecture that 20 years of independence ruined most of Soviet advantages on Ukraine.

That limited knowledge was worth something in the dump-hole which was called Soviet Union, but nowhere else.

Apparently "Bandera state" has more advantages. Paint! Paint well dude!
Nathan 18 | 1,363
5 Mar 2011  #207
Let me give you brief lesson

You may give me a lesson of the Communist ideology of a state which you mentioned in previous posts:

ConstantineK: one simple truth that all reforms in such state like Russia need to pass several stages:
1. Government should realize that something is wrong
2. They should discern what is wrong specifically
3. They should formulate the idea of reform
4. THey should surge this idea into society
5. This idea should be discussed within the social groups
6. It should be adopted
7. and then carried out

This is exactly what I mean. How shallow is your understanding of a state! You are willing to live like an ostrich all your life and wait for what others, or as for many Russians "tzar' batiushka", will tell you. It is not how overwhelming majority of the world wants to live. If you don't believe me, look around. Besides Cuba and North Korea (and people there are starving!) there is no one left. Even Chinese government would find your Leninism-Marxism trifle ridiculous. Both scumheads had no knowledge of economics or state-building and brought "sranaya intelligencyja" (I meant your type) to power for 70 years.

it might be well happened they were so "talented" that Soviet Union rendered a good service having delivered world civilization and culture from such artists and poets.

This is what I understand is the communism. And I am right. It is when "sranaya svora sobak" tells the rest how to breathe. FU.
Havok 10 | 912
5 Mar 2011  #208
By a rough count 3 million of Russians were killed by their own government back than. Written by a Russian researcher. I'm not saying two negatives make a positive but I think you should put the evil deeds in to a perspective. Think about the mentality of people who been there and lived it. Don't repeat it.

hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM
hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

polishforums.com/off-topic-lounge-47/soviet-crimes-against- humanity-49880/

some of this could be used as well
mytnica - | 7
1 Jun 2011  #209
Greetings!
I was just revisting this thread lately,and noticed, it has wandered away from orginal topic some?
Happy to meet your acquaintance ConstantineK!
Upon revewing your posts on Tuchola. I see our only point of agreement would be, on the point of number of lives lost in the Tuchola P.O.W.camps,and Katyn P.O.W.camps.

I think the Tuchola P.O.W. camps,had more in common with the German WWI P.O.W. camps, than Katyn.
My Great Uncle was a soldier in the Russian army during WWI,and was captured and sent to a P.O.W. camp in Germany.

He survived,the lack food,shelter,epidemics rampant in these camps, during the Allied Naval blockade of Germany at the time.
My Great Uncle,was released from the P.O.W. camp to serve as unpaid farm labour. During this he again,survived lack of food,shelter,and something new beatings from his new German "employers".

The most terrifying thing for him, about being outside the wire of a P.O.W. camp. Was avoiding the bands of armed Right Wing/Left Wing Extremists,who looted,summarily executed civilians,including women and children.

When my Great Uncle finally emigrated from Germany,he was glad to leave behind the land of the "Devil".
I am not sure,if,the conditions of Bolshevik P.O.W's in Poland,were worse than German WWI P.O.W. camps? But,I bet the material,medical conditions were similiar.

I don't know,if,there is any great debate of German WWI P.O.W. camp conditions going on today?
The only thing I can see feeding the Tuchola debate today.
Would be geopolitical rivialry still playing itself out in Eastern Europe.
ConstantineK, as far my Grandfather's stories about the Polish-Bolshevik War, being tales to frighten children?
Other Independent eye witness acounts to the events of 1919-1920, validate my Grandfather's recollections
Most notably, the great Soviet writer Issac Babel who served in Buddenny's Cavalry.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
1 Jun 2011  #210
Yes, Well there is a reason I hate Germans & Not Russians.

With Germans Poland did nothing to them & even was friendly to them & they paid us Poles back with horror.

Also the Soviet Union was created because Germany sent the Bolsheviks to Russia during WW1 with half Volga German.

With Russia much of the time we Poles actually started the tensions.
Although not always sometimes it was Russians who did.

With Germans it is always them being primitive & starting non sense.

Poles & Russians should both be united against German slime.


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