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Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia


violetta 2 | 22
11 Apr 2010 #181
This was clearly an accident, and any Polish people that are now blaming the Russians and making some conspiracy theories are an embarrassment to the country...

Be gone, village idiots!
Natali - | 5
11 Apr 2010 #182
I don’t believe it was an accident. Especially when the half of the countries governmental delegates are involved.
Putin blaming it all on pilot just doesn’t sound right. First they stated that pilot tried to land three times and on the fourth it crashed, sounds fishy, I’m sure that presidents pilot was professional and couldn’t made the same mistake four times.

Also provided versions are never the same, they change it as they wish?
And last, it’s Russia we are talking about, country of Stalin and his follower Putin.
Kaczynski was a brilliant men who wasn’t afraid of saying the truth and as we know he was against putinism. Also when politics die it’s already sounds weird and especially when they die in different country. Since Russia has a power scuttling radio transmissions what is the chance that they didn’t use it?
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #183
Putin blaming it all on pilot just doesn’t sound right. First they stated that pilot tried to land three times and on the fourth it crashed, sounds fishy, I’m sure that presidents pilot was professional and couldn’t made the same mistake four times.

It's called poor visibility and bad planning.
Natali - | 5
11 Apr 2010 #184
Be gone, village idiots!

why can't you use a little logic with a bright mind of yours?

Accidents do happen but not usually with politicians who are against your political views and not when Russia is changing the versions and keep saying that pilot was unprofessional.

Try to think global and dont forget it's politics where anything can(and mostly will) happen.
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #185
Accidents do happen but not usually with politicians who are against your political views and not when Russia is changing the versions and keep saying that pilot was unprofessional.

Plenty of accidents happen when you don't plan things out sensibly. There was no backup plan to get the delegation to Katyn. Either the plane landed at Smolensk that morning, or the ceremony would be missed. Diverting was not an option, as it would have caused everyone to miss the ceremony, which obviously would have been unacceptable. Instead of flying the day before when there would still be options, they decided to push it and assume that they could land the plane at Smolensk. Unfortunately, that didn't work out.

This kind of thing happens all the time. It's bad planning, and every year it kills plenty of rich and powerful people who don't respect the weather.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
11 Apr 2010 #186
I’m sure that presidents pilot was professional and couldn’t made the same mistake four times.

Professionals make mistakes too.
And who said he made a mistake 4 times?
He made a mistake one time. His last one.
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #187
He made a mistake one time. His last one.

Victim of "get-there-itis"
Al De Niro - | 4
11 Apr 2010 #188
My condolences to the families and friends of the people who died in this tragedy, and to the people of Poland.
marybethjaynes - | 3
11 Apr 2010 #189
Chicago mourns the loss of Polands President

go to WGNtv.com - WGN is the Chicago local TV/radio station. Chicago has the largest Polish population outside of Warsaw and has been doing a lot of coverage of the Polish community's reaction in Chicago. A Polish/Chicago artist who designed a memorial to those killed in Katyn in Niles Illinois was also killed in the plan crash. That is where people are congregating to mourn in Chicago. very sad. The President of Poland was scheduled to come to Chicago for the May 1st- Chicago Polish Constitution Parade.
wildrover 98 | 4,451
11 Apr 2010 #190
Video recreation of 'crash' from RIA Novost...What do you notice?

I notice it bears little resemblance to what actually happens when an aircraft hits trees during landing...
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 Apr 2010 #191
It's called poor visibility and bad planning.

And now it looks like the "4th attempt" is a mistranslation from the Russian "final turn" - which points even more at pilot error.

I notice there's quite a few animations going round...all showing different things. The swift announcement from the Russians that there was no technical failure is also interesting - and it would seem that they may be deliberately holding off on revealing what they already know.
PeterT
11 Apr 2010 #192
If the Russians caused the accident, they wouldn't do it with a missile. And they would likely have a black box all programmed and ready to go, to simulate what was there before the accident, with their staging of the accident. They built the Tupolev 154. Confusing the communications and radar electronically would be technically possible, to cause an accident.

The price of resistance to Soviet defenses and pushing Ukraine and Georgia to NATO, is high, for the leadership of Poland. It was an unlikely cooincidence that the President would be killed going to commemorate a prior Polish massacre. Vintage modus operandi of Putin, or KGB (FSU) for that matter.

A shame, our country is throwing in the towel with Putin too, removing nuclear defenses "unilaterally", probably for a lower price than Kuczynski paid - money to Obama will suffice. It is not coincidental that he is personally leading the nuclear disarmament talks. Any bona fide President of the US would have the Secretary of State (Clinton), or other representative skilled at negotiating lead the talks.
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #193
Here's an interesting accident with quite a few parallels.
aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20080123-0
Natali - | 5
11 Apr 2010 #194
Diverting was not an option, as it would have caused everyone to miss the ceremony, which obviously would have been unacceptable.

Professionals make mistakes too.
And who said he made a mistake 4 times?
He made a mistake one time. His last one.

As I know there were two planes. One filled with journalist that landed few minutes before the president’s plane and quite successfully. Again Russia has a full control to change the weather waves (simply saying) to run the plane independently of the pilot. I have a question, why the President's planewas appointed to land on the military aerodrome, that didn’t have ICAO certified equipments?

And again there were witnesses (regular people), saying the plane was unbalanced, meaning crashed on one side and the distance was apprx. 400-500 meter. For the pilot if it’s a fog issue still it’s not a problem to control the balance, even if u are going to crash.

Three mistakes simply because the pilot couldnt land so he made a circle three time and obviously knew that he didn’t suppose to land but somehow risked it??? Weird. there was no mistake, because pilot was aware that he couldnt land at that particular time. Now Russia changed the version stating that he only gave one shot to land, also weird.

Also if it would’ve been any other country, then it wouldn’t sound as suspicious but it’s Putin we talk about, guy who promoted all the misbalance in Ukraine, Georgia and now in Kirgizia, if u think of it it’s the same pace plan.

It could’ve been an accident but… anyway, history will let us know in next twenty years what really happen.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
11 Apr 2010 #195
Be careful what sources you quote. Are you quoting the official Russian government source or just some press snippet from a Russian paper? Russia has defended its position time and again, just like Wałęsa had to do, but people still gnaw away at them. It's still innocent until proven guilty.
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #196
As I know there were two planes.

There was weather changing going on?

Anyway, regarding the earlier flight, it was a Yak-40 with journalists, and it landed safely earlier in the morning. A Russian IL-76 then made two approaches and diverted to Moscow.

They landed at Smolensk because it was made available and wouldn't take a day of ground travel to get to Katyn (as would have been the case had they gone to Minsk or Moscow). The airport is just fine when the weather is ok. They have an NDB approach available there, but no approach lighting.

Here's the weather for that morning, it's not unusual especially considering the spread at dawn.

10:00Z (1pm) Temp 3°C Dew 2°C Humidity 94% QNH 1025 hPa Visibility 4 kilometers Winds east 14.4 km/h / Mist
07:00Z (10am) Temp 1°C Dew 1°C Humidity 98% QNH 1026 hPa Visibility 0.5 kilometers Winds SE 10.8 km/h / Heavy Fog
04:00Z (7am) Temp 0°C Dew -1°C Humidity 89% QNH 1025 hPa Visibility 4 kilometers Winds ESE 7.2 km/h / Mist
01:00Z (4am) Temp 3°C Dew -0°C Humidity 72% QNH 1025 hPa Visibility 10 kilometers Winds SE 7.2 km/h /
22:00Z (1am) Temp 6°C Dew -0°C Humidity 52% QNH 1025 hPa Visibility 10 kilometers Winds SE 7.2 km/h

Three mistakes simply because the pilot couldnt land so he made a circle three time and obviously knew that he didn't suppose to land but somehow risked it??? Weird.

Not really that weird, happens all the time. "Get-there-itis". Think about the pressure the crew was under. There was no back up plan. **** poor planning.

And again there were witnesses (regular people), saying the plane was unbalanced, meaning crashed on one side and the distance was apprx. 400-500 meter. For the pilot if it's a fog issue still it's not a problem to control the balance, even if u are going to crash.

Unless you clip something. See the accident report earlier.

Also if it would've been any other country, then it wouldn't sound as suspicious but it's Putin we talk about, guy who promoted all the misbalance in Ukraine, Georgia and now in Kirgizia, if u think of it it's the same pace plan.

According to others here, those were because Soros and the Jews (and possibly Vatican Nazi Zombies).

Occam's razor is a good place to start, and work back from there.
Natali - | 5
11 Apr 2010 #197
Be careful what sources you quote.

I'm Russian (had a polish grandmother) therefore, learned not to trust the govermental data. The changing in version is actually official. Other then that there are other sources and analasys that are much more reliable then Putin's tales. Just like about the terorist attack on the subway that was passed on to Chechnia, which was organized by our government and has a direct connection to what is happening in Georgia, Ukraine, Kirgizia and now I believe in Poland.

I agree that "It's still innocent until proven guilty" but I have all the rights to reason I hope.
we'll never have a direct proof but we will see in future why this happend.

There was weather changing going on?

Not sure how to organize the post here (I'm new). Unfortunately u have to apply the answers to where it belongs.
That military aerodrome didnt have a ICAO certificate (not sure if its official statement, probably not) it was stated by Russian non-governmental analysis. Also there is another alternative aerodrome close by available for citizens and its actually well equipped don't know why the President didn't have an honor to land there. Isn't weird that president was on private visit and didn't have an official visiting status by the Russian government?

Speaking of cliping something, have you seen a tree that is as tall as 400-500 meter?
those ppl just gave an interview and dont have a single reason to lie.

About Georgia, Ukraine and Kirgizia, not even going to start (too much to write and too sleepy to do it now).

Natali, then what is your theory? Russia would have a lot to lose if found to be involved in anything shady. If anything, a foreign agent was involved but I fail to see how.

Not exactly, Russia is only proving that can do a lot and push it as far as "needed".
Stalin did it why not Putin?
Especially, since Putin had put Stalin's icons in churches, we can see the deep love towards Stalin's ideology.
convex 20 | 3,978
11 Apr 2010 #198
That military aerodrome didnt have a ICAO certificate

There's no such thing as an ICAO certificate. It's a military airport and has an ICAO identifier (XUBS).

Also there is another alternative aerodrome close by available for citizens and its actually well equipped don't know why the President didn't have an honor to land there. Isn't weird that president was on private visit and didn't have an official visiting status by the Russian government?

The closest civilian airport in Russia is Vnukovo.
fallingrain.com/icao/XUBS.html
Smolensk North is a military airport, they usually don't let civilian planes land there...It was an official head of state flight.

Speaking of cliping something, have you seen a tree that is as tall as 400-500 meter?
those ppl just gave an interview and dont have a single reason to lie.

The kids that they interviewed yesterday morning said they saw the plane clip the treeline, which makes sense considering the valley in front of the airport. My guess is they were following their radar altimeter and the slope snuck up on them. There was a comment somewhere about crossing the NDB at 8m instead of 60m (as per the approach).
jarnowa 4 | 499
11 Apr 2010 #199
I wish all Polish people reading this much strength to deal with this tragedy.
Natali - | 5
11 Apr 2010 #200
Natali: That military aerodrome didnt have a ICAO certificate.

that aerodrome is and was in bad shape and it's a fact in Russia.
if you can read russian I can quote:
"Остается невыясненной причина, по которой пилоты самолета ТУ-154 с первыми лицами Республики Польша на борту решил использовать для посадки плохо приспособленный военный аэродром «Северный» возле города Печерск Смоленской области, а не совершил посадку в аэропорту Смоленска, пишет RUpor... See More.Отметим, что факт существования военного аэродрома в том или ином месте на территории РФ является гостайной и без вмешательства военного ведомства гражданская диспетчерская служба не может рекомендовать его для посадки иностранных правительственных суден. Тем более, что как отмечает телеканал «Россия 24» перед этим диспетчерская служба аэродрома отказала в посадке российскому военному самолёту."

I watched imyself on tv and there was no kid among the interviewers there, there was a middle age few men and they said exactly what I appointed in previous post.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Apr 2010 #201
So what are you telling me then, Natali? What is your theory? Multiple warnings were ignored. It seems clear to me what happened.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
12 Apr 2010 #202
anyway, history will let us know in next twenty years what really happen.

Highly unlikely. History is written&rewritten the way a current government wants it at the moment. Having said that, the version coming to light in a few years would probably fit your or mine assumptions yet that would not necessarily be the truth.
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Apr 2010 #203
I'll feed the birds :)

The plane was overhauled 150 flight hours before the crash in Samara. And conspiracy theorists... ready, set....go!
rock - | 460
12 Apr 2010 #204
Is there any info about the pilot ?
I think the only possible conspiracy theory is the pilot was an agent and realized this on purpose.
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Apr 2010 #205
Plenty of info on the crew. Again, why on earth would you kill a bunch of people that were going to be leaving in the fall anyway?

....
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Apr 2010 #206
According to info that I picked up, the pilot was not an odd sort, rock. He wasn't on a suicide mission.
joepilsudski 26 | 1,389
12 Apr 2010 #207
f we could prove that plane was sabotaged, we could say that Poland is practically attacked. Only remained question, in that case, could be- Who attacked Poland?

I have this feeling that Russia was the target, too...But we don't know...And we will ever find out...This is a tragedy for Poland, and leaves a cloud hanging over Russia...Do both countries have common enemies...At first glance, no, but....
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Apr 2010 #208
I'm just saying that my wife has a contact who knew him, rock. I also don't believe in jumping to conclusions and let's just hope that the black box info comes out ASAP in an unbiased fashion.
rock - | 460
12 Apr 2010 #209
Is there any technology that the crew might be directed to realize this crash unconsciously ?

I am not sure but as far as I remember it is told that US used this over Iraq soldiers at the beginning of war.
Crow 139 | 8,588
12 Apr 2010 #210
I also don't believe in jumping to conclusions and let's just hope that the black box info comes out ASAP in an unbiased fashion.

be realistic. What you expect from black box or from Russian investigation????

You expect Russians to say (just hypothetically),... ``We would like to announce that investigation proved that EU or NATO or Islamic league or Germany or France or Britain or Turkey or Saudi Arabia or etc, etc.... assassinated Polish leadership on Russian ground, violating that way even Russian sovereignty and practically that way declared war to Russia??!!``

Russia must be very careful, for here we speak of powerful forces (if plane was sabotaged).

Practically, Poland is already object of trade between great powers. Again in history. Don`t say that Racowie wasn`t here to warn Poles


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