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Polish President Lech Kaczynski and gov officials die in a plane crash in Russia


Harry    
3 May 2011  #631
the alleged malfunction of the plane (in a critical moment) was no consequence of any deliberate human action

The only malfunction was the pilots thinking that looking out of the window is a better way to fly through fog than looking at the instruments and listening to the automated warnings.
gumishu 11 | 4,851    
3 May 2011  #632
The only malfunction was the pilots thinking that looking out of the window is a better way to fly through fog than looking at the instruments and listening to the automated warnings.

it's difficult to disscuss with someone's prejudices so I spare myself the effort
Harry    
3 May 2011  #633
No need to mention prejudices, just read the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder.
Havok 10 | 912    
3 May 2011  #634
Did someone from Poland crash in Russia again? You people don't seem to learn. Stop flying around there, Russians love shooting stuff out of the sky for no apparent reason. Also, quite often they shoot down their own planes and don’t tell anyone about it.
gumishu 11 | 4,851    
3 May 2011  #635
No need to mention prejudices, just read the transcript from the cockpit voice recorder.

maybe you are right about what you write - I haven't read the transcripts - my excuse is some dialogues were supposedly made up by Gazeta Wyborcza ('tak lądują debeściaki') - (why don't they release the whole recording keeping it secret instead) - so it is important to know what version of the transcripts you actually mean

still you conveniently leave out what does not suit your theory and what actually became a consensus among Polish aviation experts who run the investigation
GrzegorzK    
4 May 2011  #636
Well my simple questin to everyone here is, if Russia has nothing to hide then why are they
1)refusing to allow any international investigation, and by refusing I mean the literally said they would REFUSE TO ALLOW any international investigations. In other words, any international investigation would lead to war with Poland and allies.(Nato, U.N., EU) etc.

2) Polish investigators admit they don't have all information they want and Russia has not allowed free access to Polish investigators only limited access

Ask yourselves this question if you are a true Pole and care about your country and people, how long did it take for Russia to admit they killed 20,000 of our people in Smolensk... 50 years?

All i'm saying is why should we blindly trust what anyone says let alone Russians who are notorious liars and hated Kaczynski because Kaczynski was very anti Russia and anti EU.

I'm sick of Poland getting **** on, our homeland was once a world superpower in the 17th century, now we are the doormat people walk on us all the time. We join the EU and the EU doesn't back us up, or do anything for us. We need to be smarter about our foreign policy or we will lose our country and our culture, if that means anything to you, if not get the hell out of my country and if you are Polish and don't care about your traditions then you can get the hell out as well, we don't need any abominations.

Polish foreign policies are retarded and will get us into trouble. First of all, we joined the EU and NATO and we contribute to both, also U.N. and we also sign Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty banning us from building any nuclear weapons even for self defense... what would happen if Russia wanted to bomb Poland, Poland wouldnt even be able to defend herself, and you think for one second that Germany and France would back up Poland in a war against Russia?? Give me a break, this is madness. They would probably Sanction poland and run the other way.

Its just hard to believe that a Modern European country like Poland flying to Russia with their President and full cabinet would crash simply because of some fog, this happens all the time, and i'm sure their pilots were experienced not just joe schmoe's. If it was a president of some 3rd world country I could understand.
Wiedzmin_fan - | 79    
4 May 2011  #637
Also, quite often they shoot down their own planes

They don't need to shoot them down - they just, eh, forget to connect and/or check automated control systems before take-off. Check this out:

pprune.org/rumours-news/450293-barely-controllable-tu-154-another-ua232.html

That's actually the same type of plane as Kachinsky's.
delphiandomine 86 | 16,550    
4 May 2011  #638
That's actually the same type of plane as Kachinsky's.

Worth pointing out that you really can't compare a mothballed TU-154 with the TU-154M variants used by the Polish Air Force.

quite recently there were tests performed to check how the twin plane of the crashed Tu-154M would behave in similar conditions - their outcome was partly revealed to the public

The results of those tests have never been made public - the only thing that's been made public is certain stuff published by certain newspapers - which can't be taken seriously as it's not official. What we know is that the button in question shouldn't work in similar circumstances - the TU-154M manuals make that clear.

Don't forget - there's one little bit of evidence which would immediately show plane malfunction - and that's the so-called Polish black box, which was decoded in Poland.

so it is important to know what version of the transcripts you actually mean

The only transcript that matters are the ones released by the investigating committee. But anyway, we have access to the CVR recording - it's in the video that was released by the Russians showing the flight in Russian airspace.

As for releasing it on the Polish side - from the beginning, it seems to me that the plan is to do a thorough, total investigation and then release everything at the end. Quite normal for aviation - apart from the AF447 crash, I don't know of any accident where the CVR/FDR data was released instantly.

Either way, we're still waiting for the result of the investigation. One sad thing is that although the Russian report has problems, it
does make a very good point - the Captain was a "nice guy" - and you don't *want* to have nice guys flying the President around.

I'm just still patiently waiting for the Polish report to be released.

1)any international investigation would lead to war with Poland and allies.(Nato, U.N., EU) etc.

Who asked for an international investigation? Poland didn't - nor is it accepted practice in such circumstances. When that Belarusian plane crashed in Poland, who conducted the investigation? Poland.

All i'm saying is why should we blindly trust what anyone says let alone Russians who are notorious liars and hated Kaczynski because Kaczynski was very anti Russia and anti EU.

He wasn't anti-EU for a start. And then, why would they bother to go to so much attention to kill Kaczynski in Russia and draw so much attention to themselves? He didn't have political power, he was about to be defeated in a landslide in the election - why bother?

if not get the hell out of my country and if you are Polish and don't care about your traditions then you can get the hell out as well, we don't need any abominations.

And yet you live in the US. HAHAHAHAHA.

Tell you what - practice what you preach and come back and make Poland great. We need people like you, who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the country.

what would happen if Russia wanted to bomb Poland, Poland wouldnt even be able to defend herself

Usual paranoia. What would Russia bomb Poland for?
gumishu 11 | 4,851    
4 May 2011  #639
What we know is that the button in question shouldn't work in similar circumstances - the TU-154M manuals make that clear.

from the leaks to the press it worked on the simulation flight of the twin Tu-154M - but maybe you are right that Russian manuals state that it should not (or at least should not be relied on) in the specific circumstances during the fatal flight - I tend to take such things with caution because Gazeta Wyborcza already fabricated this and that about the flight - and similarily current Polish government lied on the matter (some lies were simply blatant - like Mrs Kopacz claiming she was taking part in the post mortems - similarily the Russian body that 'investigated' the matter lied in post mortem results - Mr Wassermann's post mortem described some body parts he had removed in operation before according to Mr Wassermann's daughter
Harry    
4 May 2011  #640
We need people like you, who are willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good of the country.

He is sacrificing himself for the greater good of Poland: by living outside this most excellent country he makes it even better.
delphiandomine 86 | 16,550    
4 May 2011  #641
from the leaks to the press it worked on the simulation flight of the twin Tu-154M - but maybe you are right that Russian manuals state that it should not (or at least should not be relied on) in the specific circumstances during the fatal flight

I'd love to know the truth about this - if it worked, then what the hell is going on? The Russian manuals show that the button can't work in this circumstance - but it's entirely possible that the Polish had made their own modifications to allow it. But if so - why were they using standard LOT manuals instead of ones written specifically for that variant?

and similarily current Polish government lied on the matter (some lies were simply blatant

This is actually one big problem - it seems that everyone is twisting things to suit themselves.

The real question for me is the issue of training - I don't care if PiS cancelled simulation training or not, there's absolutely no excuse for the multitude of verifiable mistakes made within the Air Force and leading up to this flight - starting with the inexperience of the crew and potential non-current certification of them.
Kevwad 1 | 17    
10 Oct 2011  #642
Merged: Gun shots after Polish plane crash

Even thought this has been over a year old, I don't think is has been mentions in this forums before, or at least I haven't been able to find it. It it was already discussed, just lock this, but if not...

I don't know what surprised me more, the video itself or that's I just saw it now.

youtube.com/watch?v=FEx7HL4H5yk&feature=player_embedded
Seanus 15 | 19,742    
11 Oct 2011  #643
Oh, all those videos have been butchered. If sth was clear then sb would have uncovered it by now.
johnny reb 16 | 3,271    
15 Nov 2016  #644
if Russia has nothing to hide then why are they1)refusing to allow any international investigation

The investigation continues.

WARSAW, Poland - The bodies of former Polish President Lech Kaczynski and his wife have been removed from their tomb in Krakow, the first of more than 80 exhumations planned on prominent Poles killed in a plane crash in Russia in 2010.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,023    
15 Nov 2016  #645
A COINCIDENCE ? The biggest moon for the first time ever since 70 years precisely on the day of the exhumation of the man who once stole it* ...

*) allusion to the popular film of 1962 "The Two Who Stole the Moon" starring Lech and Jarosław Kaczyński.

lechjaroslaw

ukradli
Ziemowit 12 | 3,023    
15 Nov 2016  #646
[Moved from]: Supermoon November 2016 - have you seen it?

That is how I saw it yesterday night ...
Ziemowit 12 | 3,023    
15 Nov 2016  #647
A particularly nice photo of the Polish presidential couple at a formal dinner after a Mediterranean Summit meeting at the Petit Palais in Paris (July 13, 2008):

couple

THIBAULT CAMUS, AP (cbsnews.com)
Crow 143 | 7,290    
15 Nov 2016  #648
Lech Kaczyński is immortal. True man, true Sarmatian, Slavic best.
johnny reb 16 | 3,271    
15 Nov 2016  #649
Could someone update me to know the method of the madness for Moscow's refusal so far to return the plane's wreckage and the flight recorders to the Poles.

If Poland had the plane's wreckage from the get go these exhumations would not now be necessary.
Russia has to be breaking some kind of international law to remain so wicked in their defiance to return Polish property.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,023    
15 Nov 2016  #650
the method of the madness for Moscow's refusal so far to return the plane's wreckage

Moscow says it continues its own investigation and once the investigation is over, they'll return the wreckage and the flight recorders to the Poles.
mafketis 16 | 6,004    
15 Nov 2016  #651
Could someone update me to know the method of the madness for Moscow's refusal

They like fvcking with the Polish government's head....
Ironside 47 | 9,108    
15 Nov 2016  #652
Could someone update me to know the method of the madness for Moscow's refusal so far to return the plane's wreckage and the flight recorders to the Poles.

Donald Tusk ( a mix between Obama and Hillary) practically gave up investigation and handed it on a sliver platter into Muscovy hands. No method beside an inept political crook who is out there only for himself versus a smooth Russian operative.

There is no question about a fact that Putin's regime is not friendly towards Poland and won't cooperate with Warsaw.
Crow 143 | 7,290    
15 Nov 2016  #653
Once Poland existed between Germany and Russia. Things are better today. Poland exist between two Donald`s.
mafketis 16 | 6,004    
15 Nov 2016  #654
gave up investigation and handed it on a sliver platter into Muscovy hands

The accident happened on Russian territory, that limits Poland's options in terms of investigations.

here is no question about a fact that Putin's regime is not friendly towards Poland

Considering what an evil slug Putin is, that's a recommendation.
johnny reb 16 | 3,271    
15 Nov 2016  #655
and once the investigation is over,

There has to be an international statute of limitations on something like that it seems.
Like maybe two years.

The accident happened on Russian territory, that limits Poland's options in terms of investigations.

The plane is Poland's property, not Russia's.
Why this wasn't taken to a world court (or some place with authority) makes one wonder.

They like fvcking with the Polish government's head....

That is exactly what Russia is doing which is inhumane in the lowest form.
Poland needs to seek another avenue to get what belongs to them on Poland's terms which is immediately.
It is highly doubtful that if that plane belonged to the U.S.A. or say China that it would have been returned after one year.

Unless Russia has something to hide again.
Ironside 47 | 9,108    
15 Nov 2016  #656
The accident happened on Russian territory, that limits Poland's options in terms of investigations.

Not really, given a fact that aircraft that crashed belonged to the Polish Air Force. In which case primarily investigation belongs to Poland. However Tusk for whichever reason agreed with Russians to treat that crash as an aviation accident of a civil aircraft. In such a case Russian law gave primarily responsibility to Russian investigators.

The International Civil Aviation Organization recognized a fact that TU-154 of the Polish Air Force wasn't a civilian aircraft.
Tusk and PO are those bodies which and who are primarily responsible for this mess.
Rusians are just being their obnoxious self.
dolnoslask 5 | 1,972    
15 Nov 2016  #657
It does beg the question why the Russians have not returned the aircraft to Poland, Anyone got any Ideas ?
Crow 143 | 7,290    
15 Nov 2016  #658
Why Russians didn`t returned the aircraft to Poland? Aircraft can prove assassination but there is probably something with proof that can lead to uncertain conclusion (example: its not clear from where originate explosion; from inside or from outside). That`s why.

Now, it is one to prove that it was assassination but, with such a proof, if there are uncertainties, final blame would fall of Russia. So, let us presume that Russians didn`t do it but that they are sure that it was assassination after analyzed evidences. Then, let us presume that they concluded who assassinated Kaczinsky. What would Russians with that truth? Whatever they say, it would look like that they tries to cover themselves and blame some other side. Or it could look like that they invented evidences, what would even increase suspicions against them- what would have dramatic impact on image of Russia not only among Poles but in front of whole world.

That is why truth about death of Lech Kazcynsky must stay secret. It was perfect murder whoever did it. Russia may know the truth but, can`t help anything about it. Russia may even be forced to hide truth. Perfect murder.
Observvver    
16 Nov 2016  #659
Crow, Russians shot down a passenger jet full of Dutch children and families on their way to Malaysia. They forcibly annexed chunks of another country (Ukraine). Shooting down a bunch of top-ranking Poles would hardy have 'a dramatic impact on image of Russia'. They have no image, except ruthless killers, and they quite like that. So if it was them, they would let it be known that it was. Instead, they like to see that paranoid poison dwarf steet PiS and Poland into economic chaos, civil unrest, and fracturing with the EU and NATO. Because it suits them to have a useful idiot with a conspiracy theory doing their work for them.
Observvver    
16 Nov 2016  #660
"(example: its not clear from where originate explosion; from inside or from outside)"

This is usually the easiest thing to detect in a crashed plane, due to the folding (outward vs inward) and fracturing of the fuselage.

Quite how people think it's likely that anyone on the Polish side could have downed the plane is beyond rationality. They couldn't have done it from the ground, as it was in Russia. It couldn't have been timed or remotely set off, as the plane was supposed top have landed already and had been circling, and was seconds from the ground, so too tight to detonate remotely. So if it was an explosion it must have been from within the plane. Maybe Lech wanted a dramatic suicide. Maybe pigs can fly, and one got sucked into the engines. Or maybe it was just pilots under pressure being told to land in the fog when they couldn't see a runway. But Jaroslaw and Crow probably think that Occam's Razor is something that you use for shaving.



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