Pole-basher Gross up to old tricks

I've read only one book by Gross (Fear), but literally hundreds of articles on him
and his work in all kinds of newspapers and periodicals, from leftist "Przegląd", through
"Tygodnik Powszechny" to "Najwyższy Czas!" and "Fronda".

There were always doubts about the slightly one-sided view of Poland and Poles that
he presents in his books but, generally, he is considered by some to be an honest
historian and others regard him as a lap dog of holocaust industry.

The truth is probably, as usual, somewhere in the middle.

It's also a know fact that Germans confiscated all of their victims possession, they stripped them bare, they even extracted gold teeth from their victims and all of this is well documented, so what makes you think that people were digging for gold and other valuables let alone found anything of value to steal? That's not to say that it did not happen in some cases. Besides a Russian photo, how reliable is it? Haven't they also blamed the Germans for Katyn massacre?


Just what do you suppose was happening in those camps? Come on Harry even you can't be that naive.

And in 1944 the local inhabitants of Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec knew this how? Locals who got too close to the camps were shot on sight!


The testimony of people who were actually there at the time. And the words written by the head of AR to Himmler.


It is rather evident that I know far more than you do about what happened in and around those camps (not surprising given that, unlike you, I've read about them extensively and been to all of them repeatedly).

You have, I take it, read about the 1998 excavations at Belzec and what happened overnight?

Well than you have one thing over me, I concede, I've been there only once with one notable exception; the one close to where I grew up but no where near as famous as the ones you have mentioned. You know nothing as to the extend of my knowledge about that period of history. You simply spread this sensationalism because it suits you without giving it a second thought or exercising any sort of common sense in your arguments that you present here.

You're a very bad observer SHT. You're jumping on me even though I posted (twice in this thread) clearly that what I'm saying is meant as a general statement. Nothing against any particular nation. You however grabbed a chance to run over us, why SHT? I know why, you don't need to answer.

No matter what you say, what they did was disgusting, end of story. Trying to explain it as a way to survive is ridiculous. When someone is hungry, he's looking for food and is digging for potatoes or turnips and is definitely not digging for gold in the mass graves of brutally murdered, innocent people.

Again, it's not about the Poles, it's about whoever, whenever and wherever does it.

I've mentioned all the AR deathcamps (yes Jews were killed at Majdanek as part of AR but the purpose of the camp was not to be a pure deathcamp). So it seems that you don't actually know what the AR deathcamps are.


You clearly know nothing about the process of extermination or even much about the functioning of the AR camps in general, given that you think that locals would know in 1944 that gold teeth were pulled from the victims' mouths. And as pointed out above, you don't even know what the AR deathcamps were. Perhaps you might like to broaden your knowledge of this subject before you sound off about it?

To give just one example, have you yet read about the 1998 excavations at Belzec?

Whose deeds are you talking about? It can't be that of the Poles since they could not commit the crime of theft since one can not take something that simply is not there, Germans were very efficient in their treatment of their victims and believe me that anything of value was already taken by them, but yes the act of digging out corpses is disgusting.

you answered it yourself here:


this is all I was talking about Of courses not just digging out the corpses but digging for gold expected to be found with the corpses. It's a known fact that the Jews were swallowing gold and diamonds short before they got captured.

So perhaps you can explain how the silver cigarette case of one Max Monk from Vienna was found in the 1998 excavations at Belzec? Has silver no value?

You really do need to read up before sounding off. Although given how you repeatedly ignore the question of how locals in 1944 knew about the inner workings of camps they were shot if they got close to, it might seem that truth and facts are of very little interest to you.

That is circumstantial and doesn't mean a Pole took the case.

If you think for a minute, it very strongly implies that a post-war Polish grave robber did not take the case! Not unless they had an attack of conscience and reburied the thing.

You say, "Heaven forbid you criticize Poland". My butt!

What a silly premise you have.

Half of these topics criticize Poland with knee jerk "Poland is bad no matter what" anti-Polish trolls running wild.

Actually you should have said "heaven forbid some Poles stand up to the constant "Poland is bad" drum-beat going on"

And there is nothing wrong with referencing other nations to find perspective, especially those nations that were part of Poland's history.

Haha what a cheap ruse trying to smear the principled Norman Finklestein with the anti-Semitic label. Norman Finklestein criticized the racist colonial abomination that is Zionism. It is ironic that this book about starving Polish peasants who looked for valuables in Jewish mass graves at the end of World War 2 will be used by the holocaust industry to justify the existence of the Zionist entity in Palestine which is now building a "museum of tolerance" upon a Muslim graveyard in Jerusalem!

No doubt the people you're sending money to are laughing their heads off - especially those farmer relatives who are pleading poverty. Next time you see them, ask them why they pay a tiny amount in social contributions yet get much larger pensions than they've paid in for?

The fact that they convinced you that they got nothing from the EU tells me all I need to know - that they see you as just another guillible yank.

Your naivety amuses me, Did I mention that there was one near the place I grew up? I heard plenty of stories from the people who lived through that time not just the accounts of my own family embers I might add although it was well isolated and well guarded as it was part of a chemical production facility and besides Poles and local Jews there were also Russian POW's as slave labor bound to be exterminated sooner or later and a small gas chamber still stands there today as a reminder of those days. Between 1940 and 1944 a total of 15000 prisoners died there, 7500 Jews, 5000 Russian POW's and 2500 Poles, it seems that the locals knew what was happening there. Sometimes supplementing and expending your knowledge from the first hand accounts of those who lived through those dark days themselves would expend your horizon and make you less prone to fall for half truth deliberately concealing the part that dose not agree with their own agenda or might just cast a shadow of the doubt on the preconceived notions.


Not as much as human life.


Given an amount of people that went through those camps a few individual peaces might have slipped through the scrutiny of the efficiency of the German system. One thing you can always count on is corruption even among the well indoctrinated ones. Perhaps you will be so kind to explain to everyone how the woks of arts known to be stolen by the Nazis ended up in the hands of upstanding citizens of the west and every now and then turn up on the western auction houses in NY, London, etc?


Indeed perhaps that's the reason why British persistently ignored the reports coming out of Poland by Poles themselves of what really was happening there and how brutal the Nazi regime was in their treatment of Jews and Poles alike, but it dose support my argument that it was common knowledge since those reports reached far away London only to be swept aside and ignored. Go figure where the truth is, some people only hear what they want to hear, no more for it just might turn their set convictions and their world upside down and who knows it might even lead to unthinkable like changing their perspective all together but that would just be heresy by the faithful students of Gross.

You cannot explain exactly how the case got there so you cannot say for sure a Pole ever had it.

He is not historian for sanity sake, he has no idea about history, anybody can write a book on any given subject, but it doesn't make him/her a historian, to determine whatever sombody is historian or not one need to take a look atquality of his work, and his workmanship is poor, Jedwabne!Historian would make much better job, even one bent on lying!


In the middle as usual is somebody's ass ! Something is the truth or it isn't!

A professor of history at one of the top 10 universities in the world isn't a historian?

Please. I know you suffer from the same old Polish delusional complex of "I DON'T AGREE WITH HIM THEREFORE HE IS NOTHING" - but come on, the guy is far more accomplished than 99% of Polish historians!

I notice that Gross was actually jailed at one point by the Communist authorities - just what is it with some Poles and their attempts at insulting and smearing anyone who was actually there?

Where ?


Interesting isn't it ? So, either those top univ are not what they say they are, at last in a history department or that guy Gross fukked up on purpose his work - saying I'll lie to make some monies but I'll do it badly !

Take your pick !

*are you there delph?
*

Clearly you are either lying or know nothing about AR deathcamps. None of the AR deathcamps were in any way whatsoever part of a chemical production facility. Perhaps you'd like to to either stop lying or read about AR deathcamps before you sound off about them?


Oh, now I see: you are one of the holocaust deniers who denies the holocaust by minimising the numbers of victims. Sorry to tell you this but at least fifteen times more than 15,000 people died at the least deadly of the AR deathcamps. Please fucck off back to StormFront and deny the holocaust there.


I've read firsthand accounts from people who saw the digging taking place and I've spoken to people who saw the digging taking place and/or saw the effects immediately afterwards. And I'm talking about people who were actually at the AR deathcamps, not the fake AR deathcamp you lie about.


So you mean now that you've been called out on your lie with a concrete example, you have to admit that actually there were things there for Poles to dig for. I wonder how you can handle this problem.


Of course! As you can not blame Jews for Poles robbing (mainly) Jewish graves, instead you will attempt to blame the British. How very Polish.


Fortunately Gross has indeed been held up to such a process and it was decided by the other professors of history at one of the best universities in the world that he is good enough to become a professor of history at that university. Unlike Poland's pet historian, who wasn't judged to be good enough to be a professor of history at a lesser American university.


Either they don't care (because they were too young to be there) or they feel guilty because they didn't have the balls to do that he (and his like) actually did do.


An alternative explanation (which is by far more likely) is that you know far less about history than you think you do. Given the shocking lack of knowledge displayed by you and your ilk in this thread, I'd happy to have a fairly large bet that the third explanation is the correct one.

quite possibly. Shell fire can uproot buried things.

Also, are those definitely the remaains of camp victims. They might just be unburied dead people.


Were the scientific flaws not mentioning Jews enough? (assuming we're on about Davies)

See any craters? Shell fire tends to leave those.


Ones who had scattered their own bones around a bit presumably.


More the way in which he dealt with them. Rather like the way in which he lists as one of his main sources for German material in Rising 44 the German Federal Archives in Bonn when there are no German Federal Archives in Bonn.

Not just mere not mentioning but not emphasizing the general uniqueness enough. And not saying "Shalom" and sticking with useless "Niech będzie pochwalony" instead while coming to the head of the university office. Big mistake.

All the so-called purges of the 20th century in Poland were a Sunday school picnic comapred to what Jews had experienced in the 'enlightened' West. Wherever they went they were soon caught on to, persecuted, burnt at the stake or expelled, since the Portuguese, Spanish, British, French, Germans and others had no use for their usury, exploitation, shady dealings, economic domination, clannishness and overt anti-Goyism. Yes, Poland truly was a safe haven, the only country willing to put up with the lot. Even in the 1930s Piłsudski agreed to accept thousands of Jewish expellees from the Reich.

Nice, use events in 13th century England to justify the events in 20th century Poland. Does this mean that you consider the Poland of the 20th century to be as advances as the England of the 13th century? Or are you simply trying to distract attention from the fact that the citizens of no nation other than Poland spent the post-war years digging through mass graves found at Nazi deathcamps?

Everything is a lie to you, concentration camps had been established by the Nazi regime in 1933, in Poland since the very beginning of the brutal Nazi occupation, 39 to be exact and the final solution as most historians agree have been adapted as part of Nazi policy in 1942. All together there were at least 12000 such places. Those that were deemed as enemy of the state or unfit found himself to be the resident of those places, with an unset of war others like intelligentsia, clergy, pow's etc. of the conquered territory joined their fate. Yes the truth is that deliberate and systematic extermination was carried out on a much grander scale, not just Jews. Read the sign leading to Auschwitz, Theresienstadt, Dachau, “Arbeit macht frei”. You concentrate on a fragment of the history, 42-44 (how tragic our Jewish brethren fate that was) by which time most of those camps had been liberated by the Soviets, exclusively dealing only with the Jewish issue, dismissing and ignoring the rest of it like it never happened, treating it as a lie, infect that makes you the lier. Speaking of digging for gold, already tasting a sweet victory and a big pay-off at the end of this campaign, the hell with the truth, your fingernails already show the sign of dirt under them. Perhaps it's time to put the gloves on as to not making it so obvious.


Typical Zionist reaction to the inconvenient truth daring to show that period of time for what it really was.


In the works of Gross no doubt.

Anyone know if Nowak's book on Gross' 100 lies about Jedwabne has been translated into English? If not, it was probably suppressed by the Holocaust Indsutry types whose long tentacles reach far and wide.

100 kłamstw J. T. Grossa o żydowskich sąsiadach i Jedwabnem – książka autorstwa Jerzego Roberta Nowaka, opublikowana w 2001 roku w wydawnictwie Von Borowiecky (ISBN 83-87689-35-1) jako polemika z książką Sąsiedzi autorstwa Jana Grossa (ISBN 83-86872-13-6) dotyczącą pogromu w Jedwabnem.

Or maybe it simply wasn't worth publishing - there's an awful lot of politically-motivated dross in Polish that doesn't get translated.

Polonius, did you actually read this article before posting it?

It certainly doesn't subscribe to your point of view and presents a positive image of Gross.

I don't see what's at the side of the picture.


Of course, that's the only way skeletons come to be lying around, didn't you know?

of course, they may be what they are claimed to be, but they might also be from a pile of bodies from another source. There were a number of them around at the time, I believe.


Can you give another example, please? "Rising '44" came out a couple of years ago but the accusation of 'scientific flaws' dates from around '86. Were they specific at that time?