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Work Culture and Expenses - 11000 PLN gross in Poznan



itsandy 1 | 3    
17 May 2017  #1

Hi,

I am new to this forum and Poland. I have been offered 11000 PLN gross per month in Poznan. Is this good for 3 members family with kid going to primary school? Does Poznan offers bi-lingual schools like Polish/English? What is the cost of primary schooling in Poznan. Also how about racism in Poland? Is it safe for Indian Family? I am an Indian and planning to move to Poznan in next couple of months.

Thanks,
Andy


DominicB - | 2,257    
17 May 2017  #2

@itsandy

Your net salary will be about 7800 PLN month.

First of all, off the top, you have to deduct the cost of relocation for you and your family from that amount, meaning all travel expenses, shipping belongings, visas and residency permits.

Housing will cost you anywhere from 2000 to 2500 PLN all inclusive: rent, administration fees and all utilities except internet/phone/TV.

Basic living expenses will come to about 3000 PLN for a family of three: food, household supplies, clothing, sundry household expenses, and rather modest recreation. And your internet/phone/TV and public transportation passes as well.

Good schools in other cities cost several thousand PLN a month. I don't know about Poznań, but it can be up to 4000 PLN in Warsaw or Kraków, There are cheaper schools, but they tend not to be very good. Even so, bank on about 2000 PLN a month. Other posters can fill you in on schools in Poznań.

Adding all that up, you will have nothing left over for savings. And more expensive entertainment or travel will be out of the question. Forget about trips back to India or sending money back home. And forget about a car.

If you were single, the money wouldn't be half bad. It would be tolerable for a couple. But it's not very
tempting for a foreign couple with a child that has to be put in a private school. In fact, depending on the cost of schooling, you may end up losing money on the deal. In any case, you are going to have to be very, very careful with every penny. Even if things go perfect, you are not going to have much in the way of a rainy-day fund.

There is racism in Poland, but it is rarely overt racism. The kind of racism that you are most likely to experience is "benign neglect". No one will bother you. Rather, you will be ignored. You won't exactly be excluded, but you won't be included, either. If you, your wife or your child are shy and reserved, it can be a very lonely life. There is essentially no Indian community in Poland. Most Indians in Poland are young single male IT professionals who come for a year or two, and have little time for or interest in building a sustainable community. Few come with wives and children or stay for longer than a few years.
DominicB - | 2,257    
17 May 2017  #3

It may be a good wage for a average Polish person in Poland, but it's not attractive to a foreigner engineer or professional who has to pay a lot of money to get to Poland, and cannot live as cheaply as a native Pole can, not having a support system of family and friends. And who has to pay a substantial amount for a child's education, which Poles get for free.

The OP may well end up losing money on the deal.

It practically never makes sense for a foreigner to come to Poland to work when much better paying jobs are available in richer countries.
jon357 70 | 12,786    
17 May 2017  #4

These links should be useful to the OP regarding standard of living and resources for people from India who have settled in Poland

krakowpost.com/6859/2013/07/indian-culture-takes-root-in-poland
facebook.com/iap.info/
quora.com/How-is-the-life-of-an-Indian-family-in-Poland-My-husband-is-getting-an-IT-job-offer

Good luck.
OP itsandy 1 | 3    
23 May 2017  #5

Thanks Dominic and Joe. All my relocation expenses would be paid by the employer. But as you said I should consider on Apartment rentals, living expenses and others.

Anand
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
23 May 2017  #6

Not bad salary for poznan. Its a bit cheaper than some of the larger cities. However for a family as large as yours I don't think you will be able to save much money. If you and your wife say grossed 20k you'd be comfortable but still with several kids you'd still have to be smart with your money and not over spend.

Personally, if I were in your shoes I wouldn't take the whole family with. Id work for a few years to climb the ladder while sending money back home to india. If you go by yourself to poland and live in a small studio you'll have a good sum to send back to india which has a lower cost of living. However you can also bring this up to your employer and perhaps they can include something in your salary/relocation package like a job for the wife, schooling for children, etc. Otherwise i don't think 11k zl single earner with 5 mouths to feed in poland will have it very easy.

Also no matter what you do never give up your passport or any sum of money to any employer, agent, etc for the promise of a job. You don't want to become like the Indian guys building dubais skyline. Many people from India and Bangladesh have been screwed over like this. Although in poland its more common for young women to be sold into prostitution or a very low paying crappy job in western Europe rsther than migrants being brought in. Then again though there are people in poland working in what many would consider slave conditions.

Ill also add that my grandma from moms side briefly lived in poznan and there really wasn't a whole lot to do in terms of museums, nightlife, restaurants. Its larger and more to do than say like konin or walbrzych but not like Gdansk Krakow wroclaw or warsaw for example.
OP itsandy 1 | 3    
24 May 2017  #7

Thanks Dirk. I have only 3 members in the family not 5. Do you still think that 11000/- PLN gross is OK to move along with the family?
jon357 70 | 12,786    
24 May 2017  #8

It's OK. Much more than most people have to live on.

Although in poland its more common for young women to be sold into prostitution

This is simply untrue

my grandma from moms side briefly lived in poznan and there really wasn't a whole lot to do in terms of museums, nightlife, restaurants. I

I've lived there, and there's a lot to do. In the past few years it's really changed. A mid-level European city now.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
24 May 2017  #9

@jon357

Jon yes it is this happened quite often in rural areas. Women will be enticed with work in Holland England etc with some restaurant cleaning or agriculture job only to be pimped out or at best work the job they were promised but at a much lower rate due to 'expenses' same thing with Ukrainian and other eastern european girls although it seems to happen a bit more there than poland.

Personally I didn't find poznan all that enticing. Its not quite a small town nor is it a large city by polish standards. Its your typical mid sized polish city. Some of these small and mid size cities have had a lot of young people leave for larger cities or the eu, many factories and mines have closed, and some places like walbrzych where I have an aunt are simply decaying due to low wages and high unemployment. I don't know poznan currently fairs but I do know my grandma likes living in wroclaw far more than poznan. I will tell you one of the only times I got beat up in my life was in poznan. I was like 14 and got lured into a klatka (entrance to a blok / large apartment building) and got the crap kicked out of me by like 4 dudes over a couple of dollars. Idk maybe that's why i just have a negative disposition towards poznan.

@itsandy
I misread. With 3 people to support on 11k zl I personally wouldn't do it but I don't know what your financial situation is like, what your use to making, if your wife will work, etc. If your wife can also get a decent paying job id say go for it but if you plan to be the sole breadwinner and bring your whole family along it may be untenable. I think you will find it hard to pay for schooling, rent, a car, and most other middle class trappings on 11k zl shared among 3 ppl. That's not even a full $1k USD per person pre tax. Its doable but you'll have to be really smart with your money, get your wife to maybe work part time to help with a few bills, or simply go by yourself and send money back home then when you are in a better financial position or perhaps got a better paying job you can bring the whole family over. IT is big in poland and that's where a lot of the expats seem to work. Also aim for a job at a foreign company like a us, uk, norwegian, German etc as they tend to pay and respect their workers seemingly better than their polish counterparts.

Keep in mind that while rent food transport etc is cheaper than say uk or us id imagine its probably more expensive than india. I can't say for certain I've only been to Mumbai once for like 10 days and that's really my extent of first hand knowledge on India. Nonetheless due to globalization things like an ipad, Volkswagen golf, armani t shirt, liter of petrol etc cost more in poland than in the us due to import fees and excise taxes. Id imagine its similar in India. Also while I don't know about current real estate prices i can tell you we purchased a blok in poznan for around 25 30k USD some 15 20 years ago which would be a bit cramped but comfortable enough for 3. Polish families would cram 4 5 or even more people into such an apartment. In wroclaw a decent sized family home in a nice suburb or a decent sized condo in the city centre can easily run $350 $400k so a middle class life isn't all that cheap. I believe delph lived in poznan for a while so he could tell you far more than I can.

For more comparative info on global prices research the 'big mac index' or the 'ipad index'
jon357 70 | 12,786    
24 May 2017  #10

Women will be enticed with work i

Indian women in Poland? No. This is far more likely to affect locals and is frankly very very rare.

I don't know poznan currently

It's booming. I was there this month, by the way, and have lived there. There's a lot of new development (I was surprised at the transformation over the past decade), major companies relocating there and a growing economy. There's also a lot to see and do, whereas the cost of living remains reasonable.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
24 May 2017  #11

@jon357

No I meant more like local polish/Ukrainian/Romanian etc women especially from rural areas have been taken advantage of. Some end up working in Amsterdam brothels others will clean toilets in London for a fraction of what they were promised. Now though a lot of these recruiters have been exposed so the practice seems to be waning.

Nonetheless it seems that Indians especially get taken advantage of when working abroad whether its building skyscrapers in Dubai or working as a security guard in a war zone for $10 a day while the company that hired them bills the us state dept $15k a month for such a guard..I just want this guy to know such things exist and to be careful so he isn't taken advantage of. This offer seems to be legit that he has but nonetheless he has to be careful and never ever hand over a passport or pay any sort of expensive recruitment fees.

That's good to hear about poznan. A lot of the smaller and mid sized cities in poland have been experiencing brain drain, unemployment, divestment, etc. When I was last in poznan it seemed to be on this type of trajectory - kind of like walbrzych which use to have a booming mining sector and also had amazing porcelain like tea sets and such to rival those from Italy. I wonder why in particular poznan has been able to turn itself around whereas other similar sized polish cities seem to be decaying. Perhaps it depends on area? The area in north east poland seems to be especially hard hit with brain drain and divestment whereas the west and south and tri city seem to be growing.
jon357 70 | 12,786    
24 May 2017  #12

local polish/Ukrainian/Romanian

I heard of a case like that in the UK. Unpleasan to say the least. yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/news/security-worker-was-brothel-supervisor-witness-tells-court-1-2076452

I wonder why in particular poznan has been able to turn itself around whereas other similar sized polish cities seem to be decaying. Perhaps it depends on area?

Very much - good road and freight links to Germany, and well-situated in Poland. Plus it has a high skills base, established industry and the infrastructure to attract large companies. A very dynamic city council helps a lot as well, that and the International Trade Fair Centre.

When I lived there, it was much less developed than it had been, and there was high unemployment. Now it's amazing - I was really surprised by the transformation.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
24 May 2017  #13

Yeah when I was there some 10 15 years ago it seemed like all the youth wanted to leave. Even my grandma left. It just seemed so depressing all these multi generational families cramped into a small commie era bloki unable to advance their situation and just stuck in a city with little future prospects and not enough money to move elsewhere. I'm glad that the city has changed for the better. Some fdi will certainly help the brain drain. I'm sure the close links to Germany and some eu funds certainly helped too. The towns and cities in the northeast don't seem to be really moving forward much though. I remember visiting my friend in bialystok and man it looked like a totally different part of poland. Its almost like the northeast is on a different level of development than the rest of Poland. The roads were new and fixed up along with some other key infrastructure but the residential and commercial buildings weren't on the same level as the rest of Poland.
jon357 70 | 12,786    
24 May 2017  #14

stuck in a city with little future prospects and not enough money to move elsewher

Radom feels a bit like that now, and if Poznan were in, say, North East Poland, it might have the same problem.

One issue in Poznan is that it isn't the cheapest city. Costs are reasonable, but it's not like being in Rzeszøw or Lublin.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
26 May 2017  #15

Yeah poznans location to Germany def helps it out. Prior to 2004 it might as well have been bialystok.

There's a lot of cities in poland that have decent jobs and a good economy like say lodz due to its industry but there isn't all that much to do there. On the other hand places like Krakow are historically rich and beautiful but may not be the best for work. Poznan I guess is a good middle ground. If the OP does decide to move there he'll at least get a taste of polish life and culture without being overwhelmed in a place like warsaw. Like with everything there's pros and cons - knowing English and not polish may be a bit easier in warsaw than say poznan. Although English especially amongst the learned and youth is widely spoken. Even in wroclaw almost everyone you run into in the city has some kind of knowledge of english.
Lyzko 17 | 3,659    
27 May 2017  #16

Still, in my experience, it's always better to have more than merely a touristic grasp of the local lingo. I'm sure dozens of Poles on the streets of Poznan, Warsaw etc... will be more than eager to practice their English with a foreign visitor, yet, as on the streets of nearly any European metropolis, the quality can vary from zilch to mediocre to fairly native sounding. Problem is, which one has which level of English??!

If you can figure than one out, you're goodLOL
expats in War.    
1 Jun 2017  #17

Hello, all

I am currently working in Poland, and having an opportunity to negotiate my salary with my potential new company in Poland. Here is a question, is there any chance for the potential one to know how much I am paid by current employment such as by PIT etc? As I want to negotiate well, I don't want to open my current salary, indeed.

any advice would be helpful.

Thank you in advance.
DominicB - | 2,257    
1 Jun 2017  #18

@expats in.War.

No. There is no way for them to get that information unless you yourself tell them.

Never mention or reveal your current salary because it will reduce your bargaining power. It's none of their business, and they have no conceivable right to know.

Don't lie, though, and make up something.
expats in War.    
1 Jun 2017  #19

Thank you, DominicB

so even I submit that my PIT next year(maybe)to the potential company?(Because I am a foreigner, presently, my current company seems taking care of my taxes etc..), they cannot find how much I got paid, right? or even checking my ZUS or Tax office? Cause I heard that some companies check that way unofficially....

Any advice would be highly appreciated.
DominicB - | 2,257    
1 Jun 2017  #20

@expats in.War.

No. They cannot check with the tax office about your earnings from other employers. That information is confidential and the tax office will not give it out to anyone but you. There is no "unofficial" way to check.
expats in War.    
1 Jun 2017  #21

Thanks a Lot DominicB!!!!

Just to make sure, even with PIT, they cannot find out, right?
DominicB - | 2,257    
1 Jun 2017  #22

@expats in.War.

They have no possible access to your PIT information unless you personally give it to them. There is no way for them to check your PIT.
expats in War.    
1 Jun 2017  #23

Many thanks to DominicB!

Regarding Paid Holiday left, I have 18days of paid holiday left in this year. If I don't use it before leaving the current employment,

1) Can I get paid for the remaining?
2) If my superior doesn't approve my remaining paid holiday once he finds that I am quitting, is the remaining granted automatically? or should I somehow coax him to approve it?
DominicB - | 2,257    
2 Jun 2017  #24

@expats in.War.

That depends on the terms of your contract, and you will have to speak to the HR department about that.
Dirk diggler 5 | 1,233    
2 Jun 2017  #25

Depends on local laws and contract. In the US if you flat out quit you most likely won't be compensated for paid days off nor will you be eligible for things like unemployment. However if you are fired (or if your on good relations with your boss and ask him to fire you but still give you a good reference) you will be able to receive your paid days off and you can get unemployment benefits. It depends on the company's policies, your employment contract, and local laws. I don't know what the situation is in poland or outside the us so id recommend doing your own research as it pertains to your company and contract as it varies from company to company person to person. A Yahoo CEO can get fired after a very short time on the job and receive millions in severance where another person will receive nothing or at best 2 weeks.
OP itsandy 1 | 3    
9 Jun 2017  #26

Thank you all for your valuable inputs. I would like to know if you get any income tax benefit if you rent a flat in Poland?
DominicB - | 2,257    
9 Jun 2017  #27

@itsandy

No, you don't.



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