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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
15 Oct 2020 #421
Britain has always punched way above its weight.

When Germany does the same you somehow never find something admirable about that,but rather lament the mean bad Germans and their "meddling ways"...why is that?
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #422
@BratwurstBoy, I've nothing against you personally. I could even have a pint with you. The same goes to some other Germans. They may be not my first choice when it comes to socializing, but I wouldn't say no to it.

That doesn't change the fact that on a bigger scale I consider Germany to be the biggest threat to econo-political sovereignty of Poland. Basically, most geopolitical goals of Germany in Central Europe stood, and still stand, against the best interest of Poland. And vice versa.

That doesn't mean that both countries cannot be like those distant neighbors who only say "morning" to each other on their way to work.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
15 Oct 2020 #423
And vice versa.

Just think about it Spike....if GB had been Poland's neighbour through the millennia (with Poland being the unwilling part of their Empire building) you would sing the high praise of Germany today! :)

Neighbours have always much more difficult relationships than with far away countries...there is no use in categorizing countries and whole peoples into "good" or "bad" because of their geographical location and consequential shared history....just keep that in mind!

And no, because of our geographical location Poland and Germany will never be just "distant neighbours"...
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #424
GB had been Polands neighbour you would sing the high praise of Germany today

If any other country in place of Germany would speak German and had German mentality and common history with Poland it would be called Germany like it is now :-)

whole peoples into "good" or "bad"

That's relativism. There are good and bad people. There is good and bad history. There's bad and good behaviour.

Poland and Germany will never be just "distant neighbours"...

I'd say that developing or obtaining a nuclear capability by Poland would add much-needed breathing space in Central Europe.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
15 Oct 2020 #425
confused the title of Marx's

Not really. He is the man who popularized the term as name for an economic system for which he also delivered a specific definition for. Claiming that any country "invented" Capitalism is a silly idea since a) capitalist societies have always existed and are a fixture of human life, b) the UK was not inherently more capitalist than any other societies, particulary the Dutch and c) other countries have also produced important economists who contributed to understanding capitalism, with Marx among them.

weren't interested in anything

Well... he is the most important and famous person buried there. Although if I were to visit the graveyard, I'd probably also try to visit a few other graves.

Btw. keep in mind that the grass is always greener in other gardens. The Scots and Rish people do not always consider themselves as fortunate for being nwighbour of the Ebglish.

Germany in Central Europe stood, and still stand, against the best interest of Poland

I did not know that having a peaceful, prosperous and enlightened Central Europe was against Polish interest. Or why it as an Eastern European country would be concerned about supposed designs for Central Europe.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #426
Central Europe being a manufacturing hub producing components for the German industry which benefits the most from selling complete products on global markets certainly is against the interest of an ambitious Poland.

As a proud nation, Poland has rebelled against it and started remodeling it with local econo-political initiatives such as V4 and 3SI. Obviously, Germany will try their best to stop it.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
15 Oct 2020 #427
Obviously, Germany will try their best to stop it.

Why? It is in Germany's direct interest that Poland gets wealthier
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #428
@Tacitus let me put it this way: it was beneficial at the beginning as a temporary solution after the collapse of PRL state but then Poland hit the ceiling with this new approach. In order to grow stronger and to become one of the leaders, not followers, a new approach was needed.

Germany and Germans cannot understand that because in its arrogance have always underestimated Poland.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
15 Oct 2020 #429
What was beneficial and what can Germans supposedly not understand?
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #430
What was beneficial

Central Europe being a manufacturing hub producing components for the German industry

as a temporary solution after the collapse of PRL state

Tacitus 2 | 1,057
15 Oct 2020 #431
And is this based on any observable policies towards Poland or just your typical antigerman paranoia?

To my knowledge the only recent steps taken against Polish companies was an initiative backed by several West European countries and spearheaded by France was to make sure that Polish companies active in Western Europe have to pay their workers who are active there the minimum wage each country demands which I believe everybody agrees is a sensible position.

Aside from that I am not aware of any steps taken against Polish companies who try to break into the high-level production. Truth be told, German companies are currently occuppied with non European competition, especially from China and the USA.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
15 Oct 2020 #432
@Spike

A competition ambitious Polish companies will also have to contend with soon, not only with "local" European rivals, but the big global player...

Maybe then, closing ranks with your European partners would make us all stronger....just an idea! :)
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #433
demands which I believe everybody agrees is a sensible position.

Is not sensible because it is not the way that system works. There is nothing about it tin the treaty as far as i know and if you known otherwise quote it.

Logically, now Poland could and should tax some French or German companies more or make them pay the same wages they pay in their own country.

If a country has a legislative power over any and all issues concerning a company that is active on once territory I would say that is quite legit.

That is a course that the Polish gov should have taken, rather than meekly agree to that outrageous dictate. Hence talking about PiS gov as some great obstacle in German Polish seems to be just a spin in order to justify not so friendly attitude of the German gov.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
16 Oct 2020 #434
or make them pay the same wages they pay in their own country.

.....that is actually a good idea!

Maybe then to produce in "cheap labour" - countries won't make any sense for these companies anymore and they will come home, re-building lost jobs here again?

That is a course that the Polish gov should have taken,

They should build alliances to re-negotiate the EU treaties then...alone breaking them would end their membership and the other countries won't have to keep to their own parts in those treaties anymore either.

Maybe PiS knows that exactly (I can't believe they don't have researched all about it meticulously) what these treaties bring to Poland and decided that they still get a lot more out of it than otherwise?

One has to wonder why PiS and Co aren't angling for a PolExit if a future outside of the EU would look so truly bright....
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #435
Maybe then to produce in "cheap labour" - countries won't make

Sure but in that case all that common market idea of the EU is done. It supposed to be a fair play for all. Now it looks like weaker economies are destined to be colonies for the stronger ones. If that your EU idea?
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
16 Oct 2020 #436
@Ironside

So, what we truly need are the same wages in all EU-countries...fair play for all workers...no big profits for the fat cats because of moving their companies for lower labour costs...means alot more integration (labour laws, social laws, tariffs etc.) than we have now!

A "common market only" - Union won't cut it...
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #437
means alot more integration (labour laws, social laws, tariffs etc.) than we have now!

Who is going to pay for it? You talking a lot about this or that, In reality someone need to put most of the resources and money into that project. Do you think that Germans will self-sacrifice like that? If they would decided to do it they would expect all would obey them/ That would be a big no if you think about building EU not a German Empire.

To build EU on a political level like a Union. All EU countries should step back from what is now. All that Brussels folly should be eradicated and closed down.

Start anew in understanding the aim is to build the Union.
What is going now is just BS, more integration more BS on the top of the old one and some ideological nonce forced on all. Good luck with that.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
16 Oct 2020 #438
Who is going to pay for it?

Tja...that ist the big question....not to mention that lower labour laws DO actually help rising economies to attract companies, investments and jobs and so to help their own workforce and economy. After all the living costs are still also lower...

That puts a different spin on your tale of "colonization through stronger economies", doesn't it? ;)

These strong economies suffer too in such a market, not only do they lose companies and high wage jobs, alot of workers with low wages expectations are immigrating in high wage countries and help to push the wages down...

But in time though everything will (hopefully) even out, with former low wage countries rising up and with their economies also the wages rise and the gap will close in time, surely but slowly...

If there is a better way for a Union to synchronize their economies please do tell...
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
16 Oct 2020 #439
Start anew in understanding the aim is to build the Union.

Well, I believe that was the plan back after WWII, and all new members agreed to that and subscribed the treaties accordingly....
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #440
Don't know about that plan. I know that now all needs to go if there is a will to build a Union. A step back to do it right.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
16 Oct 2020 #441
OR express yourself in a more precise manner.

You know my English is limited! :)
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #442
with their economies also the wages rise and the gap will close in time, surely but slowly...

That a theoretical spin of the EU. In reality all scenarios are possible and in politick the Murphy law rules. :)
Undercutting brutally successful companies from Poland doesn't bode well for your vison.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
16 Oct 2020 #443
agree to that outrageous dictate

It is hardly outrageous that if you compete on a foreign market, you have to follow the same legal requirements that your competitors must obey. That is just common sense. It would be outrageous if foreign companies were forced to pay MORE than the native companies do. This also protects foreign workers from being exploited, because previously a lot of people from Eastern Europe worked in the German delivery service for foreign sub contractors, and thus did not receive minimum wage, despite living most of the time in Germany.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
16 Oct 2020 #444
or just your typical antigerman paranoia?

It's a pro-Polish agenda. To you it may sound anti-german simply because what's good for the future growth of Poland is usually bad for German interests in Central Europe. But once it's done you will have to deal with it and accept it. Germany is such a pragmatic country after all, right? :-)

A competition ambitious Polish companies will also have to contend with

Polish companies are doing well on a global market and are not affraid of competition. Unlike some overly socialist states which need to be protect itself with extensive beaurocratic regulations (I'm mostly looking at you France).

And yes, enforcing developing Polish economy to pay the same wages for delegated workforce, as let's say France or Germany does, is a desperate move on Western Europe's side to protect itself from a rising competition.

Such a d*ck move was widely commented in Poland and has proved for many small/middle-sized business in Poland that the EU will bend the rules of free single market in order to criple the competition from less economically developed EU members. The message was clear: in the long run the EU cannot be trusted because it protects interest of an "old" EU members and it is mostly a vehicle for Franco-German interests.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
16 Oct 2020 #445
f you compete on a foreign market

Regulated by the EU treaty and EU market not a foreign market. IF that is the case I would expect German companies operating in Poland to adjust grieffully to a NEW (potential)regulation issued by the Polish gov.

This also protects foreign workers from being exploited,

I'm pretty sure that that you could have sorted this issue out without resorting to undercut companies operating from Poland. It just a spin to make it look better. Phew!
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
16 Oct 2020 #446
The EU treaties allow each country to have a minimum wage and grant them the ability to enforce it.

pay the same wages

That is not what is happening. Polish companies are not forced to pay the same as German companies, they are just bound to the same rules as German companies are. It prevents them from exploiting their workers. I mean let us be clear here. The minimum wage in Germany is very low. It barely allows for a living. Forcing your qorkers to go below that while they live in Germany is exploitation.

is usually bad for German interests

You keep saying that, but so far you haven't really pointed out those fundamentally different interests.

And as side note, even if Poland had different interests, it could not do a worse job to realize them if they tried. Self-isolation is never a smart move in European politics.

that you could have sorted this

Any ideas how? I mean the basic idea behind the minimum wage is to assure that workers can actually live from the work they are doing without government aid. The only alternative would have been to allow German companies to undercut it and for the state to pay the difference. However this not only would have defeated the purpose of minimum wage, it would also have been illegal state aid. If you look at it ovjectively, this was the only legal and fair solution. Honestly, I dont want to think that the guys working at a local construction site are doing their backbreaking work for like 2€ an hour.
Crow 139 | 8,396
16 Oct 2020 #447
Fok EU.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
16 Oct 2020 #448
you haven't really pointed out those fundamentally different interests.

I did.

In short: Germany wants to keep Central Europe as its sphere of influence and its economies as supplementary - and non-competitive - to the German economy. Poland has greater politco-economic ambitions that stand against German plans for mittleeuropa (read: previous sentence). The clash of interest is inevitable. As simple as that.

Btw: Once this new political change happen I'll be the first to tell Germans to "act reasonably, to be pragmatic" and accept this new reality in which we have to coexist now.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
16 Oct 2020 #449
What identify as Germany's supposed interest is based on your own sentiment and not reality. Germany wishes to see Eastern Europe prosper, and has in fact invested more into this project than any other country. This is not some zero sum game but one where everybody wins. There is no need for any clash and I doubt there will be one in the first place.

new political change

What "new political change" are you talking about?
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
16 Oct 2020 #450
Germany wants to keep Central Europe its economies as supplementary - and non-competitive - to the German economy.

Every country acts this way so there is no need to create conspiracy theories about bad Germans. Poles do the same about Ukraine but you will never complain about it, will you? Coz when Poles do it, it is pure patriotism. When Germans do it, it is historical injustice.


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