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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #1
On 1 May 2004 Poland joined the EU and the dream of millions of Poles came true.

Let`s start with pros as they heavily outweigh disadvantages.

- 100 billions euros from EU funds. (Polish input already deducted)
- thousands of infrastructure projects funded by the EU
- markets for Polish goods and services.
- economy in good shape, and still rising
- thriving agriculture
- Poland's GDP has doubled
- freedom of travel and work
- protection against semi dictatorial inclinations of PiS.

Generally, progress and civilization advancement visible everywhere..
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #2
100 billions euros from EU funds. (Polish input already deducted)

Let me guess...Poland will repay it the American way - never.
Jaskier
1 May 2019 #3
It's not a loan
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #4
Yes, I was wondering what Rich had in mind talking about never repaying.

funduszeeuropejskie.gov.pl/en/site/learn-more-about-european-funds/discover-how-the-funds-work/european-funds-in-poland/
Lyzko 23 | 6,670
1 May 2019 #5
To my mind, although I haven't lived in Europe for quite some time now, the pros definitely outweigh the cons.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,153
1 May 2019 #6
Pros: In the thousands.
Cons: None at all.
Poland after war ruin and 49 years of state theft was a complete and utter shambles.
A passable market economy ( Poland will always resist true market economics) was the only way.
Just visit Elblag. A phoenix risen from the ashes.
EU money.
Lyzko 23 | 6,670
1 May 2019 #7
Nice riposte, Dougpol1!

While others here will doubtless have their own disagreements, the lesson of NATO in general, is that NO single nation can always, consistently
go it alone; everyone needs help from time to time:-)
Miloslaw 6 | 2,418
1 May 2019 #8
For Poland, The EU has mainly been pro's, as it is for most of the poorer European countries.
For the wealthier states, it has mainly been negatives.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #9
If you mean crude finances, probably yes, although it is disputable to what extent (Western companies gain a lot from European funds that are allocated in Poland).

But money means nothing compared to promoting economic growth and strengthening democratic forces in countries which once were ruled by dictatorships. The introduction and maintanance of democratic order is invaluable.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,418
1 May 2019 #10
@pawian
But you're taking an EU view of the situation.
Many people in their own countries can't comprehend why their own nations problems are not being addressed before other nations problems.
And it is a legitmate argument.
Why give money to beggars when your own children are starving?
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #11
Many people in their own countries can't comprehend why their own nations problems

Yes, many. Probably a half, especially those who lose their work because cheaper Polish migrants come and do the job done before by a British worker at twice as expensive rates. The other half are glad because the job done for them and its products cost less than before.

You, as a businessman who employs people, also Poles, will you say you didn`t profit from Polish access?

Why give money to beggars when your own children are starving?

I haven`t heard of starving children in Western Europe. :) But if you mentioned NHS crisis, then yes - I could agree. :)
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #12
It's not a loan

I know. It was Western welfare check.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #13
Cons: None at all.

:) Not all Poles would agree with you. Today radical nationalists had a Sovereignty March across Warsaw. They claim that Poland must leave the EU and become fully sovereign and develop the country in accordance with traditional values. For them, it was Moscow which once controlled Poland, today it is Brussels. We don`t want Franko-German Empire, we must retain the Polish language and currency.

warszawa.onet.pl/marsz-suwerennosci-pod-haslami-antyunijnymi-przeszedl-ulicami-warszawy/
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #14
Today radical nationalists

As opposed to non-radical kind? Or are you just venting by marginalizing?
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #15
As opposed to non-radical kind?

You see, if you were less self-centred and more open to others, you would know that some members here talk about themselves as mild nationalists - the ones who don`t want to use violence to achieve their goals. While radical ones - do.

Never mind - let`s stick to gains and losses in Polish EU membership.

Can you provide any? But remember we are talking about facts from the last 15 years, not hypothetical situations which might happen in future.
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #16
...you would know that some members here talk about themselves as mild nationalists...

Deflection. It was YOU, not some members, who wrote this:

Today radical nationalists had a Sovereignty March across Warsaw.

IN WARSAW, not here. That means there are nationalists in Warsaw who are not radical. If not, why did YOU use "radical" other than as a put down of "nationalists" as if being a nationalist is near treason? Are internationalists - like the old style communists - better?
Miloslaw 6 | 2,418
1 May 2019 #17
You, as a businessman who employs people, also Poles, will you say you didn`t profit from Polish access?

I have profited from cheap Polish workers,cheap Slowaks,cheap Romanians,cheap Bulgarians and cheap Indians.
Doesn't mean I think it is right.
I don't believe in governments imposing a minimum wage either, because now, that is all that is on offer.
A free market is better for unskilled workers because companies will offer more competitive salaries instead of the bare legal minimum.
Socialism does not work my friend.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #18
It was YOU

By your changing the topic I can see you know next to nothing about the outcome of Polish membership in the EU. Let it be so. :)

In the starting thread I mentioned only most general pros. How about more detailed ones?
In education, for example.

- renovated school buildings
- new labs and suites with modern equipment
- student exchanges
- Erasmus and Socrates Comenius programmes
- grants for hundreds of programmes, involving both students and teachers
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #19
By your changing the topic

You posted "radical". I reacted to your "radical".

Back to the thread's subject.

Has the EU been good for Poland? Sure. Same way as NAFTA was good to Mexico. Which is why every American with brains hates NAFTA and Mexico.

Poland, a recipient of the EU welfare checks, is asking for the same. You are now a net liability to the EU, not an asset. Without Poland, the Western part of the EU would be better off. You can be in glee, but not proud.
Spike31 2 | 884
1 May 2019 #20
I'll point out few things which were omitted:

> Polish GDP could grow faster without EU extensive regulations and beaurocracy. Free European market is possible with the EU: it existed since1957 [Treaty of Rome] as EEC when the EU wasn't even [ill] conceived yet.

>Freedom of travel is a part of Schengen agreement. Countries like Norway are not in the EU yet they are still in Schengen zone.

>Infrastructure projects this one is my favourite since for each project that was "founded" by the EU there are another few which couldn't be realized because of EU rules and restrictions. We can only see what was built and done but we cannot see how many projects weren't even started thanks to the EU beaurocracy.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #21
> Polish GDP could grow faster without EU extensive regulations and beaurocracy.

Of course not. You forget about custom tariffs on import into the EU from non-EU countries - Polish companies don`t have to pay them and that is one of the reasons Polish economy is doing better every year.

Freedom of travel is a part of Schengen agreement. Countries like Norway are not in the EU

Of course not. Poland would never achieve Norway status in travelling if out of the EU.

we cannot see how many projects weren't even started thanks to the EU beaurocracy.

Having to choose between already realized projects from EU funds and none at all out of the EU, I definitely choose the first option. :)

Spike, are you all right tonight? :):)
Miloslaw 6 | 2,418
1 May 2019 #22
> Polish GDP could grow faster without EU extensive regulations

So true.And this is true for many EU members.
It is such a shame that more people cannot see this fundamental and basic truth.
Spike31 2 | 884
1 May 2019 #23
You forget about custom tariffs on import into the EU.

Read it again. Carefully. I said that European free market [EEC] predates the EU by half a century. The EU is like a leftist tumor which has grown on EEC (European Economic Community). It's possible to have a free trade in Europe without neo-marxist penalnty which is the EU.

Of course not. Poland would never achieve Norway status in travelling if out of the EU.

Just because you have some form of inferiority complex, which is evident in this statement, doesn't mean that it cannot be done.

First of all: 50% of those funds needs to come from a national budget. That's what almost made Spain go bancrupt. They've started to build highways to nowhere, ghost airports, and other massive projects which were pointless from economical point of view.
10iwonka10 - | 396
1 May 2019 #24
Cons: None at all.

Nothing is perfect and there are cons too.
Miloslaw 6 | 2,418
1 May 2019 #25
It's possible to have a free trade in Europe without neo-marxist penalnty which is the EU.

Pawian does not seem to be able to understand this.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #26
You are now a net liability to the EU, not an asset.

This is nothing compared to invaluable benefit coming from integration: spreading democracy and stability in Europe. E.g., isn`t it advantageous for Germans to have a reasonable predictable partner in the East with whom they have common European interests instead of a suspicious nationalist satrapy?

It's possible to have a free trade in Europe without neo-marxist penalnty which is the EU.

I am sorry but we are not talking about the dissolvement of the EU and coming back to old times. We are talking about Poland in or out of the EU which is going to remain an entity for a long time.

Pawian does not seem to be able to understand this.

I fully understand you both want to abolish the EU. Forget it, guys. :):)
Rich Mazur 4 | 3,497
1 May 2019 #27
This is nothing compared to invaluable benefit coming from integration:

There is nothing that I can post which would be smarter than what Spike31 does.
Shitonya Brits
1 May 2019 #28
100 billions euros...thousands of infrastructure projects...markets for Polish goods and services.

Benefits to Poland have simultaneously been beneficial for the EU both in the short and long term.

Firstly, there is little point in the EU seeking to fund already developed economies like Germany and Italy.

EU investment in Poland (particularly with regard to infrastructure) not only would but already has attracted businesses from around the EU to Poland. Not only to serve Poland's economy locally but to be physically closer (and thus reduce transportation costs) to other major export markets like Russia.

Secondly, not all EU projects carried out in Poland could have been done entirely within Poland. Such projects would also require goods and services to be obtained from other businesses around the EU.

All of this EU investment in turns creates more employment around the EU and ultimately more tax revenue for the EU's coffers.

49 years of state theft was a complete and utter shambles.

Thanks for admitting that leftist economic policies are always hollow promises doomed for failure.
OP pawian 161 | 9,971
1 May 2019 #29
Just because you have some form of inferiority complex, which is evident in this statement, doesn't mean that it cannot be done.

The possibility of doing sth or not is not the same as actually doing it. Look at Ukraine - when were they allowed to travel to the EU without visas? In 2017. Can you imagine Poles waiting so long? So don`t tell us about Norway - 2 million Norwegians didn`t leave their country to look for better paid jobs. Non EU-Poles would never gain Norwegians` non-visa status, forget it, it is pure daydreaming of a kindergarten child. :)

That's what almost made Spain go bancrupt. They've started to build highways to nowhere

Is it the fault of the EU? It is the recipient country which decides what the funds are being spent on. Besides, why are you talking about Spain? Tell us about flunked projects in Poland, Yes, there are a few but I am not going to look it up for you.

There is nothing that I can post which would be smarter than what Spike31 does.

Yes, I must admit sometimes your irony is appreciated. :):)
Dougpol1 32 | 3,153
1 May 2019 #30
Nothing is perfect and there are cons too.

Name them. I can't see any negative s that outweigh the benefits. Unless people are desperate to hang onto their power base.
Personal situations aside, EU accession means that Poland finally has social justice, investment, multi-nationals, freedom of movement, EU investment ( a mere 100 billion Euros), shared know-how, shared security, a place at the decision making table. etc, etc ad finitum.

You show me the tangible negatives and I can learn.


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