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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
20 May 2019  #121
But Romania and Bulgaria are getting suddenly richer and are subsequently increasing exports quicker

They are still poor. They were poor before eu and still are.

I sure as hell know a lot more about Poland, polish people and polish culture than you do, you can bet on that. I doubt you're even proficient in polish let alone fluent. What have I written that isn't correct then? The data proves what I wrote. The trade partners that Poland has now are the same theyve always had - the EU didn't establish those partnerships they were always there, and the two, three even sixfold increase in growth over the past five years aren't with western EU nations, as the data proves.

You can diss my education all you want but at the end of the day it's clearly you who can't understand something as simple as percentages.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
20 May 2019  #122
The economist

Exports to developing countries continued to expand at the strongest pace, growing by 13% year

I know percentages are challenging but this should be simple enough for you
countries.bridgat.com/Poland_Trade_Partners.html

5 year growth percentage: Bulgaria 227% Ukraine 194%, uae 645%, Russia 200%, czechy 172% Brazil 290% etc

Versus traditional partners Germany 88%, Netherlands 103%, Italy 118% France 130%. None of these traditional trade partners or any other w European countries, except Luxembourg, experienced 200%+ growth rates.

So again, my statement that trade with countries in eastern Europe, Asia, middle East, etc is growing at a higher pace than Polands traditional w European partnerslike Germany, France, Netherlands is totally accurate and backed up by cold hard facts and data

And FYI I would never go to a college that promotes safe spaces and has an ultra liberal student body. I prefer Jesuit and Catholic schools since they atleast have some semblance of resisting the current clown world with it's promotion of mult kulti and butt seks. When a kid can write black lives matter 100x as his college entrance essay and be let in I sure as hell won't go to uni like that.
cms neuf - | 847
20 May 2019  #123
Yes it is growing at higher rate but it is insignificant compared to EU trade and it would take many years of that level of growth in order to catch up.

Polish workers and exporters cannot eat percentages - in the meantime the EU will be the growth engine of the Polish economy. I know it's hard to tell from your bedroom in Chicago but Poles have never had stability and living standards like they have had since 2004.

If a party like Konfederacja wants to leave the EU they should plaster that all over their website - in fact there is not a single mention of it. Almost all Poles know the EU is positive for Poland and these bow tie wearing eccentrics don't want to lose any of the votes they need to make the 5 percent.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
20 May 2019  #124
it would take many years of that level of growth in order to catch up.

Indeed, but time passes quickly. Ukraine was a minor trading partner just a decade ago. Now it's the 8th largest. Russia and Czech republics trade has also grown enormously.

. I know it's hard to tell from your bedroom in Chicago but Poles have never had stability and living standards.

Seeing as I was born there and remember 90s and early 00s Poland i'm well aware of how it's worth has changed over the years. And FYI Polands highest growth quarter was q1 1997 and if you look at a chart of gdp since the 90s to today it's been roughly the same pre accession and post accession. tradingeconomics.com/poland/gdp-growth

Yes, Poles are wealthier. But that's not solely because of the EU. It's because poles are smart, hard working, used the EU funds wisely, created tons of small businesses, and invested wisely. The EU didn't sprinkle some fairy dust and suddenly make Poland wealthy. The EU helped, but only in a supplemental way. If the EU was somehow a magic cure for poverty countries like Bulgaria Romania etc wouldn't be poor. It's Polands own tenacity, wisdom, conservative attitude towards investing, hard work and ingenuity that made Poland rich. Greece got a ton of money and what did they spend it on? A stadium that's empty now. Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc also got a ton of money which relative to their population is about equal to Poland. Yet they didn't grow the same way Poland did. Quite simply poles took advantage of the situation, the times, and their resources better than them.

Almost all Poles know the EU is positive for Poland

No **** Sherlock. 100 billion is going to be a positive for any country. I don't want Poland to leave EU either as long as it's getting money and there's freedom of movement. Question is whether there will be changes to Schengen, which has already been proposed, and Poland one day has to pay money for countries like Albania to join will poles still support EU the same way. That remains to be seen.
OP pawian 157 | 9,043
20 May 2019  #125
my statement trade eastern Europe, Asia, middle East, is growing at a higher pace than Polands traditional European partnerslike Germany, is accurate

But it is still a manipulation

The post which started this discussion contained the following statement: without the EU Poland would never be able to to increase her exports so quickly. Then I provided figures: the rise from 60 billion in 2004 to 220 billion in 2018.

Then you replied

Yes and much of that growth is to markets outside the EU especially China.

implying that the EU is unimportant and what really counted was outside the EU (you said it to refute my opinion that Poland is quickly developing thanks to the EU membership).

which was not true because the trade with non EU countries is a smaller part of Polish overall trade - only about 24%. It has been pointed to you several times.

PS. Besids, why did you suddenly include EU countries like Bulgaria and Czechia into your calculations? Stick to non EU countries like in your original post.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
20 May 2019  #126
without the EU Poland would never be able to to increase her exports so quickly

Not really because a) Poland's major trade partners today are the same it had in the 90's before accession, and b) the EU only gave Poland an opportunity - it was up to Poland to allocate resources wisely, which it did unlike other new members like Bulgaria, Romania, etc. which lag behind because even though they have the exact same access as Poland, they did not take advantage of the situation, they poorly allocated resources, etc. In other cases, the EU has caused major problems for countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy (known as the PIGS countries).

The EU was merely an opportunity - it was up to Poland and Polish people to take advantage of it which obviously we did. .

Also, I said E. European countries were among those whos trade had the highest growth rates over that past 5 years - some of those E European countries are EU, some not. And they aren't my calculations - it is data I am using to support my claim.

Again, the EU was merely an opportunity - it was up to Poland to take advantage of it as much as possible which it most certainly did. It milked 100 billion euros and opened up countries for Poles to work in and send remittances, send products, etc. The EU provides certain benefits for trade amongst members - there's no doubt about that. But it's up to a country and its people to take advantage of that.

which was not true because the trade with non EU countries is a smaller part of Polish overall trade - only about 24%.

I'm well aware that the largest trading partners of Poland are W. European EU nations. I never denied that.

What I said is that those same countries that account for most of Poland's trade are the same countries that accounted for most of Poland's trade back in the 90's and even before the PRL years i.e. II republic AND that trade with those countries is stagnating while other countries - both eu and non - like Ukraine, Romania, Czechy, UAE, Brazil, Russia, etc. is growing rapidly, and now Russia, Czechy, and Ukraine are in the top 10 trade partners.
Rich Mazur 4 | 2,811
20 May 2019  #127
It's a trick the ruling classes learned very well: everything happens thanks to their existence and wisdom. But only if it's good.
Tacitus 2 | 817
21 May 2019  #128
In other cases, the EU has caused major problems for countries like

This is false. The EU caused none of the underlying problems those countries suffered from. In fact it is thanks to the pressure from the EU that some of their structural problems are (at least partly) being adressed, i.e. Greece has been forced to combat corruption, tax evasion and general inefficiency.

Poland's major trade partners today are the same it had in the 90's before accession

The trade between Poland and its' neighbours has increased and is now interconnected to such a degree that would be unthinkeable without the EU. There are few countries that depend on that so much as Poland does. Poland benefits very strongly from a core principle of the EU, which means that all countries are treated equally and get the same deals, no matter how poor or wealthy they are. This is why i.e. countries like France find it difficult to protect their economy against cheap conepetition from Poland (the EU is the main reason why France has so far not implemented any protective laws against Polish competition). This is also why Poland gets access to larger economoes like Germany to favourable conditions, and to non-EU countries like China (who are even more agreeable because they want to influence the EU via the Silk road and other projects).

The EU adds wealth and influence to Poland, that much is ubdeniable.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
21 May 2019  #129
Those countries especially Italy pay billions to the EU, of which a big chunk goes into Polands pocket. So yes, the EU definitely contributed to their economic problems due to mandatory payments or basically extortion as I see it

which means that all countries are treated equally and get the same deals, no matter how poor or wealthy they are.

Oh bullshit. Everyone knows Germany and Brussels dominate the EU. Idk how you could even write something so inherently untrue.

This is also why Poland gets access to larger economoes like Germany

Poland had access to German market well before the EU. Germany has been Polands biggest trade partner for centuries due to geography and economics, not because of the EU
Tacitus 2 | 817
21 May 2019  #130
due to mandatory payments or basically extortion as I see it

Only Italy a net contributor to the budget, the other countries do in fact receive more money than they pay, which invalidates your point. And with Italy, it is not the EUs fault that the Italians elected as their longest-serving PM after WWII a man who spent more time in court battling corruption and sex-scandal cases than governing the country. Not to mention the current freakshow that has been actively sabotaging Italy's economic recovery i.e. by picking a senseless fight with Italy's most important trading partner, France.

Idk how you could even write something so inherently untrue.

Because it is true. Poland has the same access to the German market than i.e. France, despite being in a much weaker position. The EU allocates more power to the smaller countries than they would usually have. Sure the bigger countries are still more influential, but less than they would be in any other international body.

Everyone knows Germany

By "everybody" you mean everybody who has no idea about how the EU works (which as you have repeatedly proven, includes you).

Poland had access to German market well before the EU.

Very restricted which severely limited its' trade with Germany, and by extension with the rest of the EU. Polish truck drivers can now pass freely through Germany and reach destinations across Europe, which would have been unthinkeable before.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
21 May 2019  #131
Not only that but Italy Greece and to an extent Spain were absolutely ravaged by merkels decision to invite millions of 'doctors and engineers' from the turd world which thanks to Dublin many remained in Italy, Greece, etc.

By "everybody" you mean everybody who has no idea about how the EU works

Everyone knows Germany has the most power in the EU. That's clear as day. There is no equality and that's precisely what Poland is fighting for right now - to be treated as an equal and not someone who is lectured to by w European countries especially Germany.

The way the European parliament votes on issues is one of the best example of how unequal and undemocratic and simply ridiculous the EU is.

The video describes it perfectly
youtu.be/lzigiPUXNzI


Very restricted which severely limited its' trade with Germany,

Wtf are you talking about before the EU it wasn't a problem at all to go into Germany. Lot of young people even from my own family would work in Germany over the summer months to make some extra cash.
Tacitus 2 | 817
21 May 2019  #132
taly Greece and to an extent Spain were absolutely ravaged

Wrong again. Especially Greece and Italy benefitted massively from the decision to suspend Dublin, because before that they were stuck with the refugees (though Italy not longer really adhered to Dublin by 2014 and send them North anyway). It was the plight of those Southern European countries that motivated Merkel's decision, and especially Greece has been vocally thankful for it.

Everyone knows Germany has the most power in the EU.

As befitting to the most populous and wealthiest country of the EU. But it does in no way dominate it, that is not possible the way the EU is structured. Instead Germany's perceived power in the last decade was down to its' succesful economy and Merkel's adapt diplomacy.

The way the European parliament

The European parliament is a very good example on how the smaller countries receive preferential treatment in the EU. How many MEP does i.e. Germany have per citizen compared to i.e Cyprus?

Wtf are you talking about before the EU it wasn't a problem at all to go into Germany

Wow, you really have no idea what you are talking about here.... . Your ignorance is staggering. Germany eased some conditions for Polish workers in the 90s as preparation for its' EU ascension, but even after its' ascension until 2011, there were still some restrictions in place. Free moevement as we have today would have been unthinkeable, especially for Polish truck drivers.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
21 May 2019  #133
because before that they were stuck with the refugees

They are still stuck with hordes of turd worlders to this day. And the vast majority, over 90% aren't refugees, they're economic migrants that come to leech benefits. That's a fact. That's also why the majority of turn are unemployed - they get more from countries like Germany for free than they'd ever make back home working. There's no incentive for these "doctors and engineers" to work. Even if they wanted to their education levels and skills are far below what is needed to be successful in Europe as it is a far more advanced society than the sandbox or jungle from which they came.

More proof that Germany dominates the EU... Funny because I don't recall any poles, Greeks, Italians having an election where they can vote for Merkel, junckers, etc. Some democratic institution....

Is that why the majority of Greeks and Italians are against the EU?

The European parliament is a very good example on how the smaller countries receive preferential treatment in the EU.

Yeah that's really evident considering they aren't even recognized unless they belong to a major party. And if they have to use a translator, as the mep pointed out, they don't even know if the vote they cast is actually being counted

Yes, some minor restrictions. Poles and Germans have engaged in trade for centuries and the EU sure as hell didn't create that.
Dougpol1 30 | 2,833
21 May 2019  #134
hordes of turd worlders

Dirk, you are being a dick again. Your father was a "turd worlder", but the Yanks took him in. And I way prefer a land with some foreign voices in it to a lifeless, staid, unchanging world like small town Poland. You can always retire there if that's what you want when you're old.

Except you wont. Not in a million years will you want to coexist with those (poor) catholic bigots. But you seem to think that is something to aspire to - because you've never had to suffer their ignorance.

Why not try it - and report back to the board with your findings?
LOL.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,793
21 May 2019  #135
Poles and Germans have engaged in trade for centuries and the EU sure as hell didn't create that

Completely true.The EU cannot claim credit for that...... but they will anyway.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
21 May 2019  #136
father was a "turd worlder", but the Yanks took him in.

No. My father came from Poland - a country that despite being under Soviet rule had a modern society and rebuilt itself from ww2. He is not from a sandbox or jungle pretending to be a country where most people live without electricity let alone indoor plumbing to this day - their lives aren't that much different from centuries ago save for what technologies European people gave them. Places that washed themselves with elephant **** while poles were mapping the solar system, building cathedrals, and wiping out the muslim invaders at vienna. Poland is not the turd world and it never has been. That label belongs to the ******** countries who people are flooding w Europe and refuse to work and thus are supported to the tune of 25 bill year in Germany alone. The same people and I use that term loosely, that Merkel wanted to flood Poland with. But poles firmly said NO ******* WAY. And majority of poles still don't want them. Hell half of poles don't even want ukranians around.

And I way prefer a land with some foreign voices in it to a lifeless, staid, unchanging world like small town Poland

Good for you. But that's not what 3/4 of the Polish population wants.

Not in a million years will you want to coexist with those (poor) catholic bigots.

Actually I'm more than happy to associate myself with people who share my views. Most poles don't want that **** and that's a fact
Dougpol1 30 | 2,833
21 May 2019  #137
Poles and Germans have engaged in trade for centuries

They've engaged in war for centuries too. The European Union excludes that possiblity though I daresay the nationalists will have their day and start murdering innocents once more. That day has simply been delayed and just maybe the good people who want no part of it can escape - say to Sweden - which has a sad history of conscientious objection and therefore is morally reprehensible also..we're doomed, I tell ya!
Tacitus 2 | 817
21 May 2019  #138
They are still stuck with hordes of turd worlders to this day.

Better to be stuck with some of them, instead of all of them.

Your ignorance is indeed funny. The Greeks, Poles and Italians could vote for Juncker during the last European election, where it was clear that the parties affiliated to him would make him head of the EU commission. A decision that was also acknowledged by the elected governments of the EU countries.

Is that why the majority of Greeks and Italians are against the EU?

Wrong again. The Greeks were in support of EU membership even at the height of the Euro crisis, because they appreciated its' advantagtes. As do the Poles, or else they would not also be so supportive.

Only someone who has such a warped and ignorant (there is really no other word for your evident lack of knowledge here) perception of the EU as you do could think that the EU is not a massive advantage for Poland.
Dougpol1 30 | 2,833
21 May 2019  #139
Poland is not the turd world and it never has been.

Sorry pal. We had Wojciech from Plock staying with us in the 1960s, and a great lad he was too. I was 10 at the time and he was 18, and like some sort of God. He taught me to swim the front crawl. He had two pounds in his pocket for the 3 months and probably is retired now with a pension. All I remember was hating the system that made him so meek and humble, or should I say brow-beaten.

Yes - that was the third world as it was known to be back then. Dont try to deny it. For the property owning families who survived the war and who refused the 1970s party card it was nothing short of a nightmare.
OP pawian 157 | 9,043
12 Jun 2019  #140
Dirk was right - Poland was poor but never was the third world. E.g., that guy who visited you with two pounds in 1960 didn`t live in the slums like the ones we can see in backward countries and he had full access to good education, free on all levels.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,793
12 Jun 2019  #141
that guy who visited you with two pounds in 1960 didn`t live in the slums

But he did.
He lived in those godawful Communist slums, many of which, to Poland's shame, exist to this day.
You know the ones, where the caretaker controls the heating....
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,342
12 Jun 2019  #142
The worst polish slum now or during communism is like Beverly hills compared to the living conditions most third worlders lived or currently live in
OP pawian 157 | 9,043
13 Jun 2019  #143
He lived in those godawful Communist slums, many of which, to Poland's shame, exist to this day.

Do you understand the difference between a slum and communist slum? It is obvious you don`t so stop using them interchangeably. As for caretaker who controls the heating, I don`t know what you mean.
Miloslaw 6 | 1,793
13 Jun 2019  #144
There seems to be rather a lot that you don't understand.
Dougpol1 30 | 2,833
13 Jun 2019  #145
He lived in those godawful Communist slums

To be fair to the communists, tower blocks were only designed for 50 years according to state documents. The blocks were a reaction to the shocking state of housing that came before that - some of which my wife's great grandfather built as a slum landlord. They are still tenanted today. That is the real crime, that in 2019 a relatively large population is still living in what should simply be condemned housing - and the government are likely breaking all sorts of environmental laws by making the legal process avery long road to grant condemned status to present day owners of such buildings (because the state refuses to re-house such tenants)

Instead of attacking the real problems, they fukk about with 500 zl handouts.In short, life in tower blocks isn't so bad for some. The price of such is an unbelievable 8,000 sq metre in some areas here - which does beggar belief. The real slums are those built before the 1960s. And successive Polish governments are powerless to do anything to demolish them.
OP pawian 157 | 9,043
13 Jun 2019  #146
To be fair to the communists, tower blocks were only designed for 50 years according to state documents.

Nope, 50 - 70.

They are still tenanted today. That is the real crime,

Yes, they are and no, it isn`t because those blocks have proven surprisingly durable. You probably haven`t read a few studies that have been made in recent years. The blocks will survive not 70 but 150 years without major modernisation.

24kurier.pl/aktualnosci/gospodarka/ministerstwo-bloki-z-wielkiej-plyty-w-dobrym-stanie/
kb.pl/porady/bloki-z-wielkiej-plyty-ile-jeszcze-wytrzymaja/

The real slums are those built before the 1960s. And successive Polish governments are powerless to do anything to demolish them.

Hey, has the heatwave affected you too much? What TF are you talking about? There is an estate of 1950s blocks near the place where I live and they are in a very good condition, I haven`t noticed any signs of escape of tenants, on the contrary. :):)

The price of such is an unbelievable 8,000 sq metre in some areas

Do you know why? :)

Check it out, do you see the need for demolition? This communist house was built in 1949 as the first in the series..



mafketis 19 | 7,003
13 Jun 2019  #147
a relatively large population is still living in what should simply be condemned housing

I remember a friend (Australian but over 10 years resident in the UK) was living in an old commie built osiedle, he thought that finding government housing (which is what osiedla were/are) that had been built as well and that had been as well taken care of in the UK would be utterly impossible.

He also constantly maintained that PKP was superior to any train service in the UK "It's grubby but it goes" he said. I asked a number of other Brits resident in Poland and after thinking a moment or so they all agreed...
OP pawian 157 | 9,043
13 Jun 2019  #148
Getting back on topic, it should be mentioned that many of those old housing estates have been modernised with EU funds.
mafketis 19 | 7,003
13 Jun 2019  #149
the experience I was talking about was in the mid to late 90s... I lived for just under a year in a commie built osiedle and it wasn't terrible, not great but not terrible (except for occasional drama from neighbors who were something like 5 people in 40 square meters...
Miloslaw 6 | 1,793
13 Jun 2019  #150
, it should be mentioned that many of those old housing estates have been modernised with EU funds.

And they are still horrible places to live.
We have similar estates in The UK, but I think that the Polish ones are still a touch worse.


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