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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


jon357 63 | 15,538
13 Oct 2020 #391
bread, sausages, beer and sauerkraut

I'll trade those (apart from the beer) for nice cars, sekt, doner kebabs and camera lenses. Germany works better when it's producing those (and classical music) rather than invading people.

One benefit of the EU is that no two EU countries have been to war with each other since they joined. It's a great force for peace and co-operation.

And as long as Germany doesn't force anyone to copy her management strategies,

God forbid. However they do seem to be adopting other countries' practices now.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
13 Oct 2020 #392
BTW. What do you think about this:

Should I copy/paste every sentence made by stupid polish politicians now?

Do you think Barley is the F├╝hrer of the german EU-Reich?

PS: She has been criticized for that remark in Germany...an apology is still missing though!

rmx.news/article/article/german-politicians-slam-mep-barley-over-her-remarks-about-starving-hungary-and-poland
Mr Grunwald 25 | 1,735
13 Oct 2020 #393
@BB
Don't feel bad about them asking for your opinion, you matter!
Spike31 3 | 1,905
13 Oct 2020 #394
...an apology is still missing though!

Yes, diplomacy was never Germany's strong point. Combine this with the strong urge of exporting German values to the East and we've got a problem.
Mr Grunwald 25 | 1,735
13 Oct 2020 #395
@Spike31
Could you please explain to all of us how centralized the HRE was? Was there a need for diplomacy between merchants? Clergy? Nobility? The emperor? Not to mention the electors

Britain on the other hand was more then enough willing to meddle anywhere she could get her nose in.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
13 Oct 2020 #396
Could you please explain to all of us how centralized the HRE was?

I'm all in for maintaining economic exchange in Europe while cutting off political ties and dangerous political dreams about the "European Federation".

Let's deconstruct the EU (except European Single Market) and come back to European Economic Community which was a good idea and helped Europe to grow.

In other words: less political bull*, less federalization and centralization, multikulti, population swap and LGBT agenda and more free-market economic exchange.

Britain on the other hand

The Englishmen, or Brits, have different mentality. Great Britain could, and still can, achieve things which Germany would be never able to achieve.

The difference between Britain and Germany is like between a beef and a pork. Beef just tastes better, smells better and is of superior quality to pork and goes fine with good red wine.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
13 Oct 2020 #397
more free-market economic exchange.

Free market my foot. EU clearly showed that free market means French or German companies freely getting fat in Poland but if any Polish company dares to outcompete French or German companies on their own turf Nah is not a free market anymore and need to be adjusted by a new legislation that goes against EU treaties.

Sadly PiS making a big noise about migrants just took it like a B..t they are.

Germany.

I wonder if German big business is in charge or German gov or it is just a prefect symbiosis. I would have to learn German to suss it out.
jon357 63 | 15,538
13 Oct 2020 #398
but if any Polish company dares to outcompete French or German companies on their own turf

Like Orlen, CCC and Mlekovita?

Nah is not a free market anymore and need to be adjusted by a new legislation

It's probably worth you checking what the term free market actually means.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
13 Oct 2020 #399
Could you please explain to all of us how centralized the HRE was?

The HRE was the most highly decentralized state of its' time, particulary from the 1500s onwards. It consisted of up to 350 states,each of whom owed allegiance to the Emperor but were de facto almost independent. Which meant that they formed often alliances with foreign powers against the emperor.

Yes, diplomacy was never Germany's strong point

History tells a different story, Germany has prdouced some of the finest diplomats of their time. Frederick the Great, Metternich, Bismarck...

And later the chancellor's of the FRG achieved some significant diplomatic achievements. Adenauer's redemption of the FRG in the West, Brandt's Ostpolitil, Kohl masterfully handling the negotiations for German reunification. Merkel herself showed great skill in handling the Euro crisis, brokering the Minsk II peace agreement and now with the coordination of a European response to Corona.

I mean no offense, but when I think about a country that has a historical lack in diplomacy I think of Poland. Over the ages Polish leaders haf a strange fixation in leading their country in diplomatic isolation, with PiS following this tradition.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
13 Oct 2020 #400
Well, so far they're doing a quite well job building and maintaining Visegrad 4 and 3 Seas Initiative with Central European countries in cooperation with the US (so Germany cannot torpedo it like an earlier Central European Initiative "Hexagonale" initiative).

OK, I know that such strong ties in Central Europe would not be possible without the help of German "refugee" madness for which I thanked Merkel many times already. She is such a good diplomat: inviting millions of third worlders to Germany and then forcing the rest of Europe to take them in (or else) was a mastercraft of diplomacy.

And let's not forget of Germany's strong fixation with Nord Stream II pipe against the will of Central Europe, The US, and surprisingly even the EU Parliament*

icis.com/explore/resources/news/2020/09/18/10554347/eu-parliament-calls-for-nord-stream-2-halt-more-sanctions
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
13 Oct 2020 #401
Over the ages Polish leaders haf a strange fixation in leading their country in diplomatic isolation

Yes, true. Partly it was a result of German and Russian cooperation in destroying Poland - it happened a few times in history. Polish diplomats didn`t have a chance against such a duo.

fine job building and maintaining Visegrad 4 and 3 Seas Innitiative with Central European countries

Please, be serious - those initiatives exist only on paper. Main Polish neighbours aren`t truly interested in them. PiS is daydreaming of creating a counterweight to the EU. And you with them.
Michel88
13 Oct 2020 #402
Merkel didn't have the decency or humility of Theresa May to step down. May was a better leader despite her mistakes. Merkel is a typical Kraut leader: "I won't step down ever voluntary, only by elections or force". Too similar to totalitarian leaders in less developed countries. Germans listen to anything their leader says, if she says "marry only Arab people", they'll oblige.

BB, 88 is my year of birth. I don't know anything about it being Nazi-related.
jon357 63 | 15,538
13 Oct 2020 #403
to step down

Perhaps because she's popular and has a good electoral mandate. Unlike Theresa May.
Michel88
13 Oct 2020 #404
Popular? Germans must be masochistic liking leaders that lead them to trouble. A bomb in tiny Ansbach and troubles even in small German towns? You don't get such news from Polish towns.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,190
13 Oct 2020 #405
troubles even in small German towns?

You have a point, no we don't get problems like this in Poland, does anyone have an answer ?
jon357 63 | 15,538
13 Oct 2020 #406
Germans must

Be voting for her. It's a shame the SPD aren't in office right now, however she's certainly been doing her job well.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
13 Oct 2020 #407
Polish diplomats didn`t have a chance against such a duo.

Yeah, but those constellations were far from inevitable. Only a few years before the first parition Prussia and Russia had been on opposite sides in the most destructive war of the 18th century. And Stalin and Hitler were far from natural allies. In both cases Polish diplomacy played a part in bringing those two actors together.

maintaining Visegrad 4 and 3 Seas Initiative

Initiatives that de facto only exist on paper. Some of the Visegrad members even said that they won't follow Polands' anti-Eu path. The truth is that Poland nowadays is completely sidelined from any European policy discussion, even those that should be of great interest to them like Brexit.

Too similar to totalitarian leaders

At least she stands up for election. She is in power because like her and vote for her, fully knowing what they are voting for. The most powerful man in Poland is afraid to stand in the spotlight, and instead rules via puppets. Not exactly a shining example of democratic conduct.

A bomb

Didn't you have a bomb explosion in Wroclaw only a few years ago.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
13 Oct 2020 #408
Some of the Visegrad members even said that they won't follow Polands' anti-Eu path

Exactly. E.g., Czechia. Wise guys - they know that being partners of crazy Polish rightards they can only lose, not win anything.

Poland nowadays is completely sidelined from any European policy discussion

Thank you, PiS. Continue your rightard daydreaming and in 20 years` time Poland will be the Polish Republic of Russia.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
13 Oct 2020 #409
A very interesting development - PiS Chairman warned that Polish government will surely reject the European budget in retaliation for including the rule of law principle in it. Will Europe back off from their demands for the rule of law in Poland or will they stand up and resist the neobolshevik rightards? That is a fascinating question.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
13 Oct 2020 #410
Please, be serious - those initiatives exist only on paper

Every great enterprise starts as an idea before it materializes in the real world. European integration was nothing but an idea right after World War II.

And 3SI is not only a political idea but first and foremost an economic union of Central Europe and the Balkans. And economic ties are more solid than political declarations.

The transnational expressway Via Carpathia, which will connect Poland with Greek ports through the Balkans is already under construction in most of the involved countries.

Another important is a gas pipe between Poland and a Mediterranean ports in Croatia.

So even if the political views change in the future the infrastructure will remain and solidify the region.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
13 Oct 2020 #411
Every great enterprise starts as an idea before it materializes in the real world

Hmm, who knows? Hey, I have an idea! Let`s meet here in 30 years` time and discuss what has happened since today.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
13 Oct 2020 #412
Let`s meet here in 30 years

C'mon, be realistic. Till then we're all going to die because of coronaflu slash global warming ;-P

Or whatever else mass media will throw at us next, heh
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
14 Oct 2020 #413
The Englishmen, or Brits, have different mentality.

What would that be?

PS: Great Britain seems to be disintegrating...

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8839179/Support-Scottish-independence-soars-record-high-new-poll-58-cent-UK-split.html#comments
Crow 139 | 8,395
15 Oct 2020 #414
Brexit is proof that Brits aren`t total idiots. Poles still can learn from them.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #415
What would that be?

Well, Germans are collectivists.

Englishmen, on the other hand can effectively cooperate with each other but also deeply value their individualism.
kondzior 12 | 1,116
15 Oct 2020 #416
Brexit only happened because TV Globo and Radio Homo slept on their laurels. They all thought it was a done deal (i.e., the UK wouldn't leave), so they didn't bother going into overdrive with an incessant onslaught of propaganda.

I mean, there WAS an incessant flow of propaganda, but it wasn't dialled up to 11 like we would've seen had they got their wish for a second referendum for instance. All the useful idiots would've cranked up the amount of voter fraud, too, if they hadn't been told the UK was going to stay.
Bratwurst Boy 7 | 10,458
15 Oct 2020 #417
@Spike31

How would you know...how many Germans do you know?

And what would that mean for "achieving bigger things"? Usually "collectivists" achieve more than individualists...

You like your stereotypes much, aren't you? :)
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #418
@BratwurstBoy

Ask yourself: who has started the industrial revolution? Who has invented capitalism? Who has built a global empire? Which European country has the most cultural impact in the modern World?

Britain has always punched way above its weight.

Germany has always looked with admiration and envy towards Britain and for a good reason.

I'm not going to hide that I would very much prefer for Poland to follow the British example than German. And fortunately, that's exactly what's going on in modern Poland.

Germany is just not an attractive alternative on many levels.
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
15 Oct 2020 #419
Who has invented capitalism?

Didn't know that Karl Marx was British.

Germany has always looked with admiration and envy t

Well, not always, but after WWII certainly. The high esteem we held the UK makes it all the more puzzling to us that the British would undertake something so stupid and self-destructive as Brexit. Or indeed, their bungled response to Covid

As one observer pointed out, the Brits have sadly lost their famed pragmatism at some point.
Spike31 3 | 1,905
15 Oct 2020 #420
@Tacitus

I think that you confused the title of Marx's book "Das Kapital" with the invention of capitalism :-)

Capitalism is closely tied with the Industrial Revolution and division of labor and with names like Adam Smith and David Hume.

BTW: When I've visited Highgate Cementary I saw many Germans in there on their pilgrimage to Marx. They weren't interested in anything else in there but the tomb of Marx's


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