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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Spike31 3 | 1,905
16 Oct 2020 #451
@Tacitus, the question that I'm asking myself right now is: are you unable to or maybe unwiling to understand what I wrote so far. I think it's a mixture of both things.

I'll keep explaining those basic things cause it may reach some more perceptive readers at some point.

Germany wishes to see Eastern Europe prosper

Well, Poland lies in Central Europe geographically and geopolitical, but that's not the point. For me Germany was never a truly Western country anyway. But those are our personal opinions, irrelevant to the matter.

Yes, Germany would like Central Europe to prosper to the point where it could become a large market for German products but not to the point where it could become a fully developed competitive economy. Thinking otherwise would be insulting to Germans and their pragmatic ways of thinking.

This approach may work with Czech or other smaller countries but Poland is just too big and to ambitious to settle down for such a position. It was a temporary solution when the economy was rebuilding after communist times but it was inevitable that one day such a position would not be suitable for Poland any longer. I hope it's clear so far?

So what to do now, how to solve this problem from a German point of view? How to deal with those bloody Poles, who on top of that have invited Americans into taking a more active role in Europe? I mean, blocking Ribentropp-Molotov pipe with Russia, starting some geopolitical initiatives, like 3SI, in central Europe without asking Berlin first? Who they think they are?

In the "good old days" Germany would make a preventive strike in order to jeopardize Polish plans. But these days it is impossible for Germany to do so for various reasons. So there are only some political and economic ways which you can use against Poland. Here's a sample:

"Countries such as Poland and Hungary must be starved financially,"

but come on, such words as "starving Poland" in the mouth of a German politician sounds very inappropriate to say the least. That's not the way. And not pragmatic at all to reveal German plans so openly.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
16 Oct 2020 #452
"starving Poland" in the mouth of a German politician sounds very inappropriate

That is sad you promote and spread fake news. Read this article - she said nothing about starving Poland.

konkret24.tvn24.pl/polityka,112/wiceszefowa-pe-nie-powiedziala-ze-nalezy-zaglodzic-finansowo-polske-i-wegry-fake-news-wciaz-krazy,1032823.html

Will you apologise to Germans for falsely accusing them?
Spike31 3 | 1,905
16 Oct 2020 #453
"Mr Jabłoński said that he had listened to a recording of Ms Barley's interview and the words "aushungern finanziell", meaning to "starve financially" are audible and clearly apply to both Hungary and Poland."

polandin.com/50150185/ep-vp-comments-on-poland-hungary-were-shameful-pm-aide
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
16 Oct 2020 #454
Mr Jabłoński said that he had listened to a recording of Ms Barley's interview

Spike, please, do not quote a PiS rightard politician who is ready to sell his own mother and father into slavery only to kiss up to the Chairman. I thought you were wiser than that.

And Polandin is a PiS TV site. Since when have you swallowed PiS propaganda so eagerly?
Tacitus 2 | 1,057
16 Oct 2020 #455
I hope it's clear so far?

Not really, this just sounds like a lot of paranoia to me, unless you can actually back it up with some tangible examples when Germany formulated policies to this effect. As if Berlin was constantly plotting to keep the Eastern Europeans down.

from a German point of view?

The main problem from a German point of view is that Poland under PiS has stopped playing a constructive role and indeed stopped playing an active role at all in Europe. That is regrettable because Poland could be an invaluable partner but I fear that won't be possible for as long as PiS under the great chairman rules Poland.

ways which you can use against Poland

Don't mix up different issues. 1. That Poland is seen as in violation with the rule of law on several issues has nothing to do with Germany, but with the Polish governments' willingness to breach those rules. 2. If Poland is decisvely declared to be in violation by the EuGH which may happen soon than it will be necessary to talk about the EU funds going to Poland. 3. This comment was directed at Hungary, which - while not the best choice of word - is rather justified. Orban and his cronies have grown rich by using the EU funds for their own means, building train and big stadium in Orban's home town, and of Orban's relatives becoming one of the richest men in Hungary by receiving government projects funded by the EU.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
17 Oct 2020 #456
The EU treaties allow each country to have a minimum wage and grant them the ability to enforce it.

They also grant a freedom for EU based companies to operate on EU market without being regulate minutely by every law and bylaw one or other country would like to levy on them. IF that would have been the case there is no common EU market.

What is that you don't understand?

Any ideas how?

No, because as I said i think that issue has been used as an excuse to undercut successful Polish companies operating on the EU market. Saying it is all about low paid jobs is just a sneaky way making it look like that it was the reason for they success. which is BS.

IF the would have paid so baldly those drives would rather find a job with a German or other company,
It is what I say it is, migrant workers supplementing our economy yes, Polish companies outcompeting our companies no. Who decide what EU is all about>?

At least it is all in the open now.
Are you the naïve one?

When Germans do it,

Who said they are bad. Spike points out that declared EU and real EU are different realities. whilst Germany are realizing their interest in the way they know.

Poland needs to do it too. So if there are clashes of interest who is bad or good is not the issue on hand.
Saying that it figures that soviet like you would side with a foreign country. F soviet rootles dumb dimwit. Why are you surprised I call you that? That is basically true not an insult.

t will be necessary to talk about the EU funds going to Poland.

OK you can keep it. Poland on the other hand won't pay a penny into EU pot.
Also foreign companies operating in Poland wound be subject to review - some changes and some condition might apply.

That Poland is seen as in violation with the rule of law

Well, that has nothing to do with EU nor Germany nor any other country. EU has no say and no competence in those matters. Also many other countries seems to be in violation with the rule of law. Poland might start point it out more. Oh you only see Poland? Isn't that called bulling?
Spike31 3 | 1,905
17 Oct 2020 #457
As if Berlin was constantly plotting to keep the Eastern Europeans down.

It's not so much of a conspiracy plot but rather a pragmatic approach in keeping a desirable, from a German perspective, balance in Central Europe by making political and economic steps to prolong and to reinforce the current situation which is beneficial for Germany and much less beneficial for Poland.

Germany benefits from maintaining the current situation in CEE and Poland will benefit from disrupting it as simple as that.

constructive role and indeed stopped playing an active role at all in Europe

By constructive you mean backing up most of the EU core decisions made by the others. Like the last PO government did. They even almost took German "refugees" in before they got swapped by enraged Polish voters.

And by Europe you mean the EU core.

This government was active and has played an active role in consolidating V4 and creating 3 Seas Initiative. And also made the US be more involved in Europe. That's an active role imho.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
17 Oct 2020 #458
in keeping a desirable, from a German perspective, balance in Central Europe

You are taking it to the next level talking about strategies and long terms plans that might or might not be in motion. Rather then debate rather theoretical issues is always better to talk about issues at hand. More down to earth eh?

After all your exchange looks more like:
you - yes it is
he - no it isn't
you - but it is
he - no its your bias
you - no my bias that reality
he - no its isn't
you - yes it is
ME- WTF?
Michel88
17 Oct 2020 #459
Correct me if I'm wrong but there are almost no Czechs and Hungarians in Western Europe. Seems like the situation in Poland's not that good as there are so many Poles abroad. Yes, you're like 40m but there are more Poles working abroad than Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Hungarians combined. PiS isn't doing that great it seems, and I'm against Muslims.

I mean I really wish for the best for Polska but after such a troubled history it still can't find real good leaders. Slovene, Slovak, Czech and Magyar ones are apparently much better. Even if also corrupt, they invest more.
Crow 139 | 8,395
17 Oct 2020 #460
I blame Vatican. Bigger influence of Vatican, bigger tendency to give up and assimilate. Only Slavic soul preventing Poles from desire to racily merge, with Italians for example, and make Vatican even more happy.

My people must do something to help to Poles to get rid of Papal yoke.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
17 Oct 2020 #461
Yes, you're like 40m but there are more Poles working abroad than Czechs, Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes and Hungarians combined.

You are a kid aren't you? Here some stats:
Poland 38m
Czechs 10m
Slovaks 5m
Hungarians 9m
Croats 4m
Slovenia 2m
In total population of all others countries combined is 30m so 8m less that population of Poland.
So if you would like to derive any lesson from those numbers it would be - duh?! No sh't dude!
If you want to make any kind of generalization basing it on those numbers you should have to look at the percentage of population of those countries working abroad.

I just told someone in this threat to stop talking about a big picture. However he at least knows where said big picture hangs. You just say whatever comes to mind without any knowledge whatsoever about subject you talk about.

So why don't you take it down a notch,
Spike31 3 | 1,905
17 Oct 2020 #462
Rather then debate rather theoretical issues is always better to talk about issues at hand

First, you need to get to the core of the problem, the issues at hand are symptoms of it. Strike the core and you'll eliminate the multiple issues at hand instead of chasing them like rabbits.

PiS isn't doing that great it seems

In my opinion, Konfederacja will do much better in the future, but I have to be fair with PiS.

Immigration has started after 2004 and it was caused mainly by the high unemployment rate in Poland at that time. It doesn't have a lot to do with a current government. Right now the unemployment rate in Poland is one of the lowest in the EU next to Germany and the Czech Rep.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
17 Oct 2020 #463
First you need to get to the core of the problem,

Good luck! You know you talking nonsense here don't you?
The core problem has been identified long ago, Poland has no elite in charge and is a divided society. Government is not doing its job.

Why would Germany or anybody else stop realizing their interests? To be nice, because you ask them? lol!
what you do is as you put it - chasing a rabbit!
Spike31 3 | 1,905
17 Oct 2020 #464
@Ironside I'm not here to solve the problem but to shed some light on. It's a discussion forum not a political cabinet after all.

And remember that it is not only up to politicians to make those changes but also to citizens. Small things like consumer patriotism* and donating funds to the right causes and pro-Polish media goes a long way.

Not to mention that more aware society puts more pressure on the government and demands more ambitious goals to be set and followed.

play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=pl.pola_app
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
17 Oct 2020 #465
Oh you only see Poland? Isn't that called bulling?

Don`t be silly. You can`t bully PiS rightards - they are much bigger bullies themselves. Let`s call it self-defence - Europe needs to protect itself against the virus spread by PiS.

It's a discussion forum not a political cabinet after all.

Yes, he is always mixing it and gets lost in result. :):):)
Spike31 3 | 1,905
17 Oct 2020 #466
Why would Germany or anybody else stop realizing their interests?

I'm not saying that they should stop. Germans have an advantage and are using it in their own interest, which in most cases is not in the best long-term interest of Poland.

I'm simply stating that we should be:
a) aware of it
b) realize that it is not the best long-term option for Poland
c) take an action to neutralize it or at to least minimize it

There's nothing irrational or unpragmatic about it. Quite on the contrary

PS: Look how Germany is reacting to the Nord Stream II sanctions and American involvement. There are some valuable lessons to be learned from it.
Ironside 49 | 10,621
18 Oct 2020 #467
Don`t be silly.

Don't be a traitor. You don't live in Europe but Poland, if you don't like it move out!

I'm simply stating that we should be:

Sure but talking to someone who doesn't know about it or pretend not to know about is pointless after three posts,.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #468
Don't be a traitor. You don't live in Europe but Poland, if you don't like it move out!

But why??? It is PiS who betray Poland by rejecting European values and directing us towards Russian sphere of influence again. And you are happy because of that. Shame on you.
gumishu 11 | 5,412
18 Oct 2020 #469
by rejecting European values

if European values means you have to call a man a woman because he wishes so, than fvck European values

also if European values means Poland can't have the judiciary on the model of Germany than fvck European values
Ironside 49 | 10,621
18 Oct 2020 #470
European values

What exactly are European values and where you can find them written down, so there is no misinterpretations.
Michel88
18 Oct 2020 #471
European values are UK values like politeness, smiles, small talk.
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #472
What exactly are European values

if European values means you have to call a man a woman because he wishes so

Guys, you are making fools of yourselves and ostrich eggs are dripping on your ugly faces now. Don`t you know that European values are codified? Check European Charter of Fundamental Rights. As rightists or fascists, you have not been aware such a thing exists. Mistake!!!

E.g,,
Article one - dignity
fra.europa.eu/en/eu-charter/article/1-human-dignity

Human dignity is inviolable. It must be respected and protected.

Now, PiS is violating this basic human right by abusing and insulting LGBT people in Poland.
gumishu 11 | 5,412
18 Oct 2020 #473
Check European Charter of Fundamental Rights.

you must have heard of the Polish-British optout protocol to the Charter, no?

by abusing and insulting LGBT

show me one example of what you are insinuating
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #474
A little amnesia? hahahaha Funny.

you must have heard of the Polish-British optout protocol to the Charter, no?

No, I haven`t. Does it mean PiS doesn`t have to abide to it? Does it mean other countries have to close an eye to PiS` discrimination?
gumishu 11 | 5,412
18 Oct 2020 #475
A little amnesia? hahahaha

I'm waiting - if you don't find anything I proclaim your accusation as false - now go searching

btw how is calling someone their official sex against their dignity?
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #476
I'm waiting -

hahaha
Gumi, be serious - I can remind you of 100 cases from the last month alone - the best one is declaring LGBT-free zones. Dirk was boasting it already covers 1/3 Poland. How many cases does it comprise then?
gumishu 11 | 5,412
18 Oct 2020 #477
Gumi, be serious - I can remind you of 100 cases from the last month alone - the best one is declaring LGBT-free zones.

ok, I should have restricted your search - I don't consider morons from municipal goverments representative of PiS - show me a leader of PiS who did things you accuse them of

by the way how is declaring a 'LGBT free zone' abusing gays and co - was someone not allowed entry there, refused medical help or similar in these 'zones'
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #478
I don't consider morons from municipal goverments representative of PiS

hahaha Sorry, it is too late - those morons are mostly from PiS.

Leaders of PiS - you still play stupid? hahaha Ziobro offered money to counties which proclaimed LGBT free zones - to make up for the lost funds from the EUropean Union. What do you think - what did he want to show with this gesture of good will????? hahaha



gumishu 11 | 5,412
18 Oct 2020 #479
by the way how is declaring a 'LGBT free zone' abusing gays and co - was someone not allowed entry there, refused medical help or similar in these 'zones'

ahaha Ziobro offered money to counties which proclaimed LGBT free zones

ok I haven't heard about it - btw what do those LGBT free zones mean in practice for LGBT people if you care to enlighten me and potential readers
OP pawian 173 | 13,530
18 Oct 2020 #480
Gumi, if we continue discussing LGBT, the thread will be closed according to old traditions of the forum.

That is why I won`t say a single word about LGBT here.

Another European value that PiS violates is independence of the judiciary.

read about it:
ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_772

The new law on the judiciary undermines the judicial independence of Polish judges and is incompatible with the primacy of EU law. Moreover, the new law prevents Polish courts from directly applying certain provisions of EU law protecting judicial independence,


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