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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #481
Human dignity

Define human dignity.

Ah dear, I see that gov and institutions in Brussels already are going against their own chart i.e. they are against European values.

By the way you remember how you were here yapping about certain doctor in Warsaw hospital who was bullied out of his position because he was against abortions'.

You soviets and your BS I knew you know nothing about European values - The right to conscientious objection is recognised - here he was so right. Shame on you commies.

Another European value that PiS violates is independence of the judiciary.

Nope, it is not. There nothing the chart about it. That just something that has been made up. So don't lie about it. EU politicians are yapping about it is not the same,.

Ah and show me chart talking about LGBT.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Oct 2020 #482
I'm pretty sure you don't realise that the so called judicial independence is detrimental to societies and Poland is one of the starkest examples of that - but you can always choose to shut your eyes tight and pretend there's nothing wrong

also why on earth is the current Polish model of judiciary not in line with European 'rules'
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Oct 2020 #483
Define human dignity.

Playing stupid? hahaha

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignity

you remember how you were here yapping about certain doctor in Warsaw hospital

Wrong! It wasn`t me - I would never yap about that doctor coz I respect their right to stick to moral values they hold.

There nothing the chart about it. That just something that has been made up. So don't lie about it.

I already told you that fascists like you know nothing about European codes and charters.
ejtn.eu/PageFiles/12454/The%20Independence%20of%20Judiciary%20as%20a%20European%20Standard_training%20material.pdf
Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #484
Playing stupid? hahaha

Asking for you take on it. It meaningless as so called right, as in American pursue of happiness but it could used for political ends. I'm asking you how you define dignity. Is it too difficult for you to formulate your own answer without wiki?

After all you choose to post it as an example! Are you stupid?

I already told you that fascists like you know nothing about European codes and charters.

no we are clueless, it is a commie like you that is well versed in all of those codes and charters.
I'm only saying that in that charter allegedly presenting all common European values there is nothing about judiciary in Poland. So don't point me to all and sundry of opinions elsewhere - it means nothing.

Just show me a passage from that EVC that says something about Polish judiciary - nothing more nothing less.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Oct 2020 #485
You are playing stupid all the time - but let it be if it is your favourite pastime.

ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_17_5367

Article 7(1) of the Treaty on European Union provides for the Council, acting by a majority of four fifths of its members, to determine that there is a clear risk of a serious breach by a Member State of the common values referred to in Article 2 of the Treaty (see Annex II). The Commission can trigger this process by a reasoned proposal.

It is up to Poland to identify its own model for its justice system, but it should do so in a way that respects the rule of law; this requires it to safeguard the independence of the judiciary, separation of powers and legal certainty.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Oct 2020 #486
imagine, pawian that the judiciary is hostile to you for some reason -you go to court on level one - and the verdict is against your wishes even if the law is misinterpreted against you - you go the the level 2 and it's the same you go say to the Supreme Court and it's the same - are you still sure the judiciary should be independent - you wnat courts to dictate the law? - independent judiciary eventually means the rule of the judges not the people - it's agianst the core of democracy: that's why judges in the United States are elected - they are being held to responsibility before the public

also the creation of new judges in Poland is in the hands of politicians just like in Germany - the Disciplinary Chamber is there to prevent the abuses and outward criminal activities by the judges - the Disciplinary Chamber is not politicians but judges -so how is it not independent?
Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #487
You are playing stupid all the time - but let it be if it is your favourite pastime.

Nah, I want you to tell me. Not to quote some political BS but where is that RISK (lol) (they don't even say there is a breach but a potential exist there for it to happen, isn't that life anything can happen or not- I digress).

Which values they meant precisely in their referral? All of them? Doesn't make sense! So tell me which one of those values it is?
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Oct 2020 #488
also pawian who do you think the judges will align themselves if there is no control over them - with the poor or with the rich and mighty
dolnoslask 6 | 3,046
18 Oct 2020 #489
who do you think the judges will align themselves

Commies like Pawian.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Oct 2020 #490
imagine, pawian that the judiciary is hostile to you for some reason -

Hostile to me at all 3 stages??? What is it? Some science fiction story about bad Martian judges and good Eartheners? hahaha

that's why judges in the United States are elected

All of them are elected by the ruling party??? Are you sure? You`d better check it out again. :):)

the Disciplinary Chamber is not politicians but judges -so how is it not independent?

Playing stupid again? Coz they were elected by one single party which rules the country? And are used by this party to harass truly independent judges who go against the party`s expectations?

So tell me which one of those values it is?

Your playing stupid is tiring. I said and quoted enough for intelligent people to know what they should know. If it is not enough for you, then it is not my fault.
Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #491
then it is not my fault.

You mean you don't know. Bravo! You support blindly anyone even against your country just that you can get back at PiS. Oh sorry it is not your country, Go home soviet!
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Oct 2020 #492
I am at home, expat darling. :):)
Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #493
No you are not./
Anyway, you don't even know what values and what issues and you don't care. Just be honest once in your life and admit it.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Oct 2020 #494
I admit it that discussing things with you is very tiring coz you twist and mix everything up, ask illogical question, reject plausible arguments and demand the same explanations over and over again.

Hmm, what is your job, iron? Do they have a fool-proof system against your mental chaos and the mess it brings about? Or are you already retired?
Ironside 49 | 10,684
18 Oct 2020 #495
I admit it that discussing things with you is very tiring coz you twist and mix everything up,

On the contrary I ask you very simple questions, you only need to answer them truthfully. It is not my fault that you lie. If you are caught you blame it on me. Your misbehavior is very antisocial in its core.
dolnoslask 6 | 3,046
18 Oct 2020 #496
you only need to answer them truthfully.

Exactly he won't explain what he means when he talks about "true Poles"
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
19 Oct 2020 #497
@Michel88

Correct me if I'm wrong but there are almost no Czechs and Hungarians in Western Europe.

I can't really speak for Western Europe, but migration to Germany is particulary high from Hungary. In 2019 we had 35k migrants from Hungary and e.g. 130k from Poland. Thus in relation to population size, we had more migrants from Hungary than Poland.

de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/157446/umfrage/hauptherkunftslaender-der-zuwanderer-nach-deutschland-2009/

nothing about judiciary in Poland

The issue is the rule of law. When Poland joined the EU, it pledged to remain a state in which the rule of law is respected and in which the government would not take undue influence on the judiciary. The justice reform has put this in jeopardy. Even if you believe that the current government won't abuse the power it has given itself, it still opens the door to future transgressions. It is just not a good idea to give a simple majority the power to appoint judges without any compromise, as evidenced right now in the USA.
johnny reb 28 | 4,436
19 Oct 2020 #498
as evidenced right now in the USA.

Everyone should get a turn to level the playing field.
In the U.S.A. the Democrats have been the weighted Party for the last 150 years in the Supreme Court.
All we want is OUR turn at it.
cms neuf 1 | 1,775
19 Oct 2020 #499
Well there is a simple way to get "your turn" - to consistently elect Republican presidents. Which means policies that voters like and making voters lives easier. In all the discussions about your court there doesn't seem a lot of interest in that.

And the US system is not an example for us to follow here - it has become too politicized and in the US it can still be balanced by other branches of government. Poland's system doesnt have those checks yet
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
19 Oct 2020 #500
weighted Party for the last 150 years in the Supreme Court.

What are you talking about? There has been a conservative majority of 5:4 judges for as long as I can remember. Which just goes to show how broken the US system is, in which a minority can dominate the system.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
19 Oct 2020 #501
And are used by this party to harass truly independent judges who go against the party`s expectations?

harass corrupt judges simple as that - how come judge Zurek has about 20 pieces of real estate all around Poland -is he a real estate collector or what?

All of them are elected by the ruling party???

they are elected by the public in their constituencies
Lenka 3 | 2,205
19 Oct 2020 #502
judge Zurek has about 20 pieces of real estate all around Poland

On its own it's no argument. Unless there is a proof of his wrongdoing.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
19 Oct 2020 #503
All of them are elected by the ruling party???

they are elected by the public in their constituencies

On its own it's no argument. Unless there is a proof of his wrongdoing.

let's check his tax return then: would you scream injustice if Inland Revenue got around Zurek
Lenka 3 | 2,205
19 Oct 2020 #504
Inland Revenue got around Zurek

What do you mean?
gumishu 11 | 5,493
19 Oct 2020 #505
I mean tax office, sorry
Lenka 3 | 2,205
19 Oct 2020 #506
I figured that out. I meant more what measures you have in mind. 'Got around him' is pretty vague:)
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
19 Oct 2020 #507
they are elected by the public in their constituencies

Yes. So you understand that comparing it to PiS style on one party election wasn`t appropriate.

Let`s be honest, PiS style is good in Russia or Belarus but not in democratic Europe.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
19 Oct 2020 #508
Yes. So you understand that comparing it to PiS style on one party election wasn`t appropriate.

PiS was elected into power by the public - so it's got a pretty strong mandate to choose judges
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
19 Oct 2020 #509
We will see how you will sing about a strong mandate when the opposition takes power. hahaha
gumishu 11 | 5,493
19 Oct 2020 #510
maybe it will, maybe it won't


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