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15 years of Poland in the EU - assessment of pros and cons


Ironside 49 | 10,684
21 Oct 2020 #511
The issue is the rule of law.

Which is a subject of interpretation what constitutes the rule of law. Meaning it is a slogan not an issue.

The justice reform has put this in jeopardy.

Even if that is the case it is not up to the EU or any particular country within it to interfere with the Polish internal issues. In short there is not treaty that allows to meddle into it. That the law.

t is just not a good idea to give a simple majority the power to appoint judges without any compromise,

Maybe not, but as said it is up to poles to sort it out. What is that complex of a big brother or father? Get rid of it. That is the biggest problem in the EU.

By the way if we deny the right of the majority to govern that is a step back from democracy. Maybe into oligarchy? Seems like it.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
21 Oct 2020 #512
it is not up to the EU or any particular country within it to interfere with the Polish internal issues.

Of course it is. Don`t play such a fool. Would Belarus be allowed to access the EU now? No. Why? Coz it is a dictatorship. Can the EU close an eye to Poland gradually turning into a dictatorship under PIS? No. Isn`t it simple?

Maybe not, but as said it is up to poles to sort it out.

Fortunately, we are backed by European institutions which stick to law. Belarussians arent` so lucky - they are only backed by Russia. You are doing your best to lead to such a situation in Poland. too. Get lost, traitor. Or not traitor? coz you are not Polish anymore. Now, you can only claim you were born in Poland. Nothing else, mr expat.
Spike31 2 | 1,976
25 Oct 2020 #513
we are backed by European institutions which stick to law. Belarussians arent` so lucky - they are only backed by Russia

All in all, that's the same thing. It seems that you only feel safe when submitted to someone else's will and when some external force tells you what to do. Until the whole generation who was raised in the communist-era go away, we will not have 100% sovereignty. Fortunately the young will take over pretty soon, that inevitable.

I prefer Poland to be backed by Poland first and foremost. We don't need foreign pseudo-values and it doesn't matter whether they would come from the EU core, Russia, the middle east, or any other place. And we can collaborate with those who share our traditional Polish core values ie. Christianity/Catholicism, freedom, individualism, voluntarism, family and moral values, and so on.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #514
So, the Hungarian government has already vetoed the EU budget. The Polish government vowed to do the same - they oppose the idea of funds depending on the abidance to the rule of law.

Those morons are shooting themselves in the feet coz the EU will manage without Poland or Hungary. Rightard politicians who take such harmful decisions today will be taken to court when their regimes fall. Not even the Tribunal of State for corrupt politicians, but common criminal courts.

euobserver.com/opinion/150103

This means we could finance the recovery fund by contributions and new own resources from 25 member countries, limited to the projects introduced by the governments of the 25 countries that apply the criteria, including a solid rule of law mechanism. Like the euro, it would be open for Hungary and Poland to join once they fully accept and fulfil the conditions.

Hey, forum rightards and fascists, your yapping about the European " injustice" will be useless, you know abiut it. The EU is determined to demand the rule of law and nothing is going to stop decent countries from sticking to it.

Will PiS risk another step towards Polexit?
Crow 139 | 8,382
18 Nov 2020 #515
I have deep respect for Hungary and PM Orban the great statesman. He saving Hungary from EU, Islamization and Gemanization, what is all the same, after all. Three faces of one and same evil.
Spike31 2 | 1,976
18 Nov 2020 #516
The EU is determined to demand the rule of law and nothing is going to stop decent countries from sticking to it.

@pawian, you're so naive.

It's not as simple as that. It can be easily be used as a political weapon, for which it was created.

The whole document is full of unprecise and ambiguous terms:

Paragraph 2a:

"Member States' laws and practices should continue to comply with the common values on which the Union is founded"

europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2014_2019/plmrep/COMMITTEES/BUDG/DV/2020/11-12/RuleofLaw-Draftconsolidatedtext_rev_EN.pdf

And what are the 'EU common values' and who determines them? It is NOT a legal paper but a chaotic political manifesto of some sort.

But hey, they are sending us to paragraph 2 give them a chance to shed some light on it:

"accountable and democratic process for enacting law, legal certainty3, prohibition of arbitrariness of the executive powers4, separation of powers5"

It's all well and fine. But then I remembered that the German judiciary system is highly political (did I mention already that good memory and logical thinking are the worst enemies of liberal democracy?):

"Lay judges (Schöffen) are effectively short-term, politically appointed, non-professional judges (...) Given the high threshold for inclusion on the municipal council lists, in practice these lists are first compiled by municipal bureaucracies and the political parties in Germany"

"Selection of lay judges has been described as a "highly political and discriminatory process."[12] It has been argued that personal acquaintance, political affiliation and occupation have all historically played an important, if publicly unacknowledged, role in the selection procedure"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judiciary_of_Germany

It also needs to be noted that the "impartial" European Council which will be deciding about "the rule of law" is run by politicians, not by judges.
Crow 139 | 8,382
18 Nov 2020 #517
The founding idea of the EU was that western Europe and leading countries of the Islamic league live well and that Eastern Europe (sure, not only Eastern Europe) work for them, assimilates in them, and die for them. Essentially, the same as what Hitler and the grand mufti of Jerusalem wanted.

Then, speaking of the most fatal events, happened destruction of Yugoslavia and attack on Serbs, China, sanctions to Russia, Trump, and Coronavirus. Now we look at EU same as at Hitler. A failure.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #518
But then I remembered that the German judiciary system is highly political

Oh, playing the old tune of German judges again? I thought you had already read articles about it. Here you are - in Polish for better understanding.

konkret24.tvn24.pl/swiat,109/wybierac-sedziow-tak-jak-w-niemczech-tlumaczymy-zawilosci-niemieckiego-systemu,1002665.html
Spike31 2 | 1,976
18 Nov 2020 #519
@pawian, Just admit it that you couldn't find any English source claiming otherwise so you had to stoop down for TVN24 :-)

All I can ready there is "what's good and allowed for Germany is not good nor allowed for Poland..."

And now my part: "...because Germany is such an old democracy which was built on the legal foundations of the IIIrd Reich and without its own constitution" :-)
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #520
Never mind German judges. Only two countries have problems with the rule of law - Poland and Hungary. Is it a coincidence that both are ruled by autocratic populist regimes??

The EU has had enough and says: VETO to them.

Two regimes resorted with theiir own veto to the budget.

Do you really think the EU won`t find the way to deal with it? Of course, they will. And then Poland and Hungary will receive nothing.

Societies had voted their corrupt governments into power, now they will have to swallow a bitter pill when they don`t get European funding from the vetoed budget.
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #521
Spike, you are really embarrasing yourself here to anyone who has even a modicum of knowledge on the subject.

1. Germany has of course a constitution (in fact Polish lawywrs and other Eastern European countries looked into it before they wrote their own).

2. The criticism against lay judges is just an outlier and one that is not widely shared by experts. The high hurdles to become one are of course intentionsl since you don't want anybody to decide the fate of someone.

It worst it awards undue influence to local authorities with no influence on the bigger picture . Whereas the Polish justice reform is de facto a power grab by the Polish government with serious implications for the rule of law. But don't worry, the EU will help protect Poland's democracy!
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #522
Polish justice reform is a power grab by the Polish government

Exactly. But they will always try to put a smoke screen around it, pointing to manipulated exampkes from other countries.

But don't worry, the EU will help protect Poland's democracy!

I say prayers for it every evening.
Spike31 2 | 1,976
18 Nov 2020 #523
Germany has of course a constitution

Germany doesn't have a constitution but a 'Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany

"The term "constitution" (Verfassung) was avoided (...) expecting that an eventual reunified Germany would adopt a proper constitution.
(...)enacted under the provisions of Article 146 of the Grundgesetz, which stipulates that such a constitution must be "freely adopted by the German people".
Nevertheless (...) it was never submitted to a popular vote, neither in 1949 nor in 1990.
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #524
1. Its a constitution nevertheless and a pretty good one which is why we kept it after 1990. Besides Grundgesetz and Constitution have the same meaning. Yeah it was originally hoped that it would only be temporary, but its' authors knew that it could last a long time and thus made sure it was designed as a lon-term solution. Hell, the American founding fathers expected their constitution to last a generation but it is still holding up (though it is showing its' age).

2. There is no need for a popular vote since it was drafted by democratic legitimated politicians. In fact most democratic constitutions have never been submitted to a popular vote.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #525
the EU will help protect Poland's democracy!

he he - just like USSR in Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #526
Nope, this time we won't leave them to their opressors unlike 1953, 1956 and 1968.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #527
he he - just like USSR in Hungary in 1956 or Czechoslovakia in 1968

Gumi, don`t compare the EU to the USSR. We know that rightards want Poland to leave the EU coz they think they will fare much better with the Kremlin than with Brussels. But it is an illusion. In the past a few Polish leaders also thought so and they supported the partitions - later they regretted it immensely. Why do you want to be like those traitors?
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #528
their opressors

which opressors if I may ask
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #529
Obviously PiS in this scenario.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #530
PiS has been democrtatically ellected about a year ago - do you think most of Polish people suddenly feel oppressed by them
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #531
Being democratically elected does not mean you are democratic.
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #532
you know what - current opposition shouted that PiS is going to rig the elections in 2019 - and guess what: not a trace was found of rigging - PiS is a democratic party which is willing and ready to face the judgement of the voters at ballots
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #533
also PiS won almost 2 million votes more the second time they were elected than in 2015
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #534
After they had taken undemocratic control of state media and spewed communist-style black propaganda against the opposition. Yes, they managed to brainwash more millions than before with it.

Don`t forget about it, Mr Manipulator. hahaha
gumishu 11 | 5,493
18 Nov 2020 #535
Yes, they managed to brainwash more millions than before with it.

well propaganda alone couldn't do it - simply they delivered on at least some of their promises
delphiandomine 85 | 18,262
18 Nov 2020 #536
PiS is a democratic party

Actually, it isn't. PiS have a very strange way of organising the party which isn't found in other parties in Poland.

wyborcza.pl/7,75968,26493550,ksiega-zapowiedzianej-dyktatury-co-kryje-statut-pis.html

Nevertheless (...) it was never submitted to a popular vote, neither in 1949 nor in 1990.

Not true. The Basic Law was adopted by the individual states, which were democratically elected. Their individual state parliaments decided to join the Federal Republic and adopt the Basic Law, which they were empowered to do so by their state constitutions. The Basic Law itself was created by a delegation of parliamentarians from the individual states, and it was then ratified by the states individually (with one exception, but they agreed to join the Federal Republic if all the others did anyway).

In the case of East Germany, a constitutional majority in the Volkshammer there agreed to join the Federal Republic after free elections. The individual states no longer existed in East Germany, hence the Volkshammer was the only institution capable of making such a decision.

In fact most democratic constitutions have never been submitted to a popular vote.

Yep, there's plenty of examples in Europe where parliamentary assemblies or even international treaties have established constitutions. Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia all have constitutions that were passed by their national parliaments, not by the people through popular vote.
Michel88
18 Nov 2020 #537
Poland needs someone like Viktor Orban - a true patriot that invests in infrastructure more. PiS aren't that good, they just talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Budapest now is easily better than most European capitals. The roads in Hungary look better than German and Austrian roads.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,262
18 Nov 2020 #538
Budapest now is easily better than most European capitals

Hahahaha. I was there a year ago, and it's a slum compared to Warsaw, Prague or Bratislava. Visited Budapest-Keleti recently? It's certainly not a welcoming place, even in the middle of the day.

Orban has redirected cash for infrastructure into things such as building stadiums and railway lines to the village that he was brought up in.
Tacitus 2 | 1,079
18 Nov 2020 #539
You mean someone who turns his country into a autocracy and who abused public funds to enrich himself and his family?

patriot that invests in infrastructure more

It is the EU that invests.
OP pawian 175 | 13,559
18 Nov 2020 #540
and it's a slum compared to Warsaw, Prague or Bratislava.

Therefore, decent Poles refuse to have Budapest in Warsaw. No wonder PIS is opposed and objected to so much.





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