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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #91
PiS are trying to clean up the mess left by PO to have a solid foundation to build a democratic order on.

HAHAHAHAHA. That's why Duda is refusing to follow the order by the Constitutional Tribunal to swear in the judges immediately, without delay - is it?

where PiS tried to invalidate the results

It seems to be a trend with them, doesn't it? They seem to be very quick to try and invalidate results that they don't agree with.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #92
they don't agree with

Never forget it was PO that started the Polish-Polish war in 2005 and the current punch-up last summer. Then they raise a rumpus and smoke screen to try to shift the blame and confuse the issue where there's seemingly no sensible way out of the imbroglio. An old PO tactic. Fortunately Polish voters have seen through their sneaky little tricks and ruses.

TK

Mira Suchodolska writing in dziennik.pl states it's high time to to end the hypocrisy and myths alleging the TK to be an apolitical entity comprising individuals devoid of personal opinions with heads full only of paragraphs. In reality it is a most politicised body.

wiadomosci.dziennik.pl/wydarzenia/artykuly/504395,trybunal-konstytucyjny-nie-jest-apolityczny.html
jon357 63 | 15,214
5 Dec 2015 #93
They seem to be very quick to try and invalidate results that they don't agree with.

It's an established pattern of behaviour for them.

I must say, it was clear from the start that they'd start to fall apart - just a surprise how quickly.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #94
established pattern of behaviour

Indeed, PiS's concern has always been first nad foremost the good of the nation. Quite unlike the Platformer scum and their banker/oligarch sponsors.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,382
5 Dec 2015 #95
Indeed, PiS's concern has always been first nad foremost the good of the nation.

You could have fooled a lot of people actually living in the nation. Because so much of what they do is oriented around the past rather than the present (and forget about the future).

How is destroying the TK or turning it into a set of PiS lap dogs going to create jobs? (number one priority of younger voters)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #96
TK

PO yesmen you mean.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,382
5 Dec 2015 #97
So you support the subversion of the rule of law. About what I expected.
Ironside 49 | 10,304
5 Dec 2015 #98
I think you're really struggling with the Constitution

What are you talking about delph, I know what I'm talking about, you seemingly are just showing off for fun.

The TK exists to settle disputes

TK lost all the respect and reason for its existence has passed together with the martial law.

it is empowered to rule as to whether the actions of the Sejm were legal.

You seems to be struggling with understanding of the issues here, theoretically TK is there to rule whether or not bills passed by the Seym do not go against Constitution. Somehow whatever PO, SLD and other post-communist parties of the system for the last 25 years done have been always legal according to TK even if people who make a living by practicing law were certain it wasn't so.

Coincidently only acts and bills going against interest of the system and post - communist establishment are allegedly illegal according to TK.
I call it BS!

PiS are desperate for absolute power

PiS wants to be able to rule and there is noting wrong with it! After all PO was ruling unimpeded for the last few years and you have never uttered a protest.

So they need to control it too in order to exercise absolute power over Poland.

No they don't, absolute power exists only in your head. They need to be able to act if they are to deliver on promises and expectation and most of Poles don't give a damn about all that TK issues where PO and others twerps have gone hysterical when it sunken in that TK won't be controlled in toto by the PO cronies /nominees.

If they fail, then PiS will have a TK made up of a majority of opposition-appointed judges which will put the brakes on any attempt to institute unconstitutional measures.

Quite the contrary my dear Watson, even if those five nominees of PiS will be appointed still PO nominees will have majority in TK.

the Constitution says.

Nobody is bothered by what Constitution says, noPO no PiS and neither all those cretins that are whining about destruction of democracy just because a party their supported lost in democratic election; it was supposed to be temporally solution before a proper Constitution could be introduced, something Kukiz opting for.
Legal Eagle
5 Dec 2015 #99
PO yesmen you mean.

The so-called "Constitutional Court" damaged its reputation, and exposed its bias, by not addressing the matter in October when PO named more judges than was legal. This point was raised by Parliament Speaker Marek Kuchcinski.

In reality it is a most politicised body.

It is better understood as a political "cooling saucer" to moderate the actions of the newly elected parliament than an actual court. However, it is a poor substitute for staggering the terms of the Senate. There is no illusion that the TK is above politics, or that the short terms of its judges can be expected to result in anything other than partisan decisions.
Ironside 49 | 10,304
5 Dec 2015 #100
Polonius is repeating the same lines found in the PiS-controlled media.

Allegedly PiS controlled media. You have no proof only allegation and gossip.

Rather we're just amused that PiS are appointing members of the PZPR to the highest court in the land.

Your amusement derives from ignorance or you feigning being amused by that here in order to use that argument borrowed from PO crowd, They do not realize being dunces that by saying that they admit they holing PiS to higher standards than them by default admitting their are a low scum and drifters.

So you support the subversion of the rule of law.

What#? Rule of what? Are you another jester here?

There is no illusion that the TK is above politics, or that the short terms of its judges can be expected to result in anything other than partisan decisions.

Indeed.
Legal Eagle
5 Dec 2015 #101
The Constitutional Tribunal exists to protect the Constitution, not to act in any way as a branch of government.

Ha Ha Ha! You are promoting a theory of judicial supremacy, which is contemptuous of the concept of democracy. Ultimately, a court requires political support from the other branches of government to enforce its rulings. This is a truism beyond the U.S.

Nice personal attack, but as far as the law is concerned, the President is now in breach of the Constitution.

It wasn't a personal attack. It was a factual statement. The voters will decide what, it anything to do about Duda and PiS, and who is right. If you can't vote in a Polish election, your opinion matters not.

If Duda and PiS are able to fulfill their campaign promises, increase the national standard of living, defend the nations borders, and improve Poland's international standing, they will be elected, and only those you mentioned, with the addition of anti-Polonist academics will much remember this dispute.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #102
Indeed, PiS's concern has always been first nad foremost the good of the nation.

Polonius, it would be helpful if you could at least stop telling lies. If they cared so much about Poland, they would have ignored the Constitutional Tribunal and got on with enacting laws and policies that would actually help. The example of the new director of Lasy Państowe shows that they have little to no interest in the welfare of the nation and every interest in putting their men into positions of power.

How is destroying the TK or turning it into a set of PiS lap dogs going to create jobs? (number one priority of younger voters)

Indeed. I haven't seen a single measure yet that actually involves this.

So you support the subversion of the rule of law. About what I expected.

Polonius has never been about the rule of law. Him and Ironside have made it pretty clear that they regard the law as something that stands between them and absolute power.

What are you talking about delph, I know what I'm talking about, you seemingly are just showing off for fun.

Doesn't seem as if you know what you're talking about.

TK lost all the respect and reason for its existence has passed together with the martial law.

It seems to me as if you're against the TK solely because PiS can't control it.

Somehow whatever PO, SLD and other post-communist parties of the system for the last 25 years done have been always legal according to TK even if people who make a living by practicing law were certain it wasn't so.

Ah, so because the TK has protected the country from the worst excesses of PiS, you're now claiming that it's corrupt? Surprise, surprise.

Coincidently only acts and bills going against interest of the system and post - communist establishment are allegedly illegal according to TK.

Because those acts and bills are unconstitutional. It's really not difficult Ironside - the TK isn't going to allow PiS (or anyone else) the right to abuse the country.

PiS wants to be able to rule and there is noting wrong with it!

The magic part of that sentence is "rule". I notice you used that word rather than "govern".

They need to be able to act if they are to deliver on promises and expectation and most of Poles don't give a damn about all that TK issues where PO and others twerps have gone hysterical when it sunken in that TK won't be controlled in toto by the PO cronies /nominees.

Why do they need to have a majority on the Constitutional Tribunal if they want to run the country? The TK isn't going to get involved in 99% of situations, after all. As Mafketis says, this is all about the fact that the TK will stop PiS from abusing democracy and democratic processes.

Quite the contrary my dear Watson, even if those five nominees of PiS will be appointed still PO nominees will have majority in TK.

As I explained above, the three judges are crucial to the future of the TK. If PiS wins this battle, then they have a majority at some point in a couple of years time. If the opposition wins, then the TK stays out of the hands of PiS until after the next election.

Nobody is bothered by what Constitution says

Perhaps you might not be, but people do care about it, hence why people are on the streets today and hence why there's going to be a huge crowd outside Jarosław's house on the 13th.

The so-called "Constitutional Court" damaged its reputation, and exposed its bias, by not addressing the matter in October when PO named more judges than was legal. This point was raised by Parliament Speaker Marek Kuchcinski.

PiS withdrew their complaint to the Constitutional Tribunal, so it's meaningless. The TK cannot act without a complaint.

, or that the short terms of its judges

Short terms? They're appointed for a single 9 year period. Are you sure you know what the Constitutional Tribunal is and how it works?

Allegedly PiS controlled media. You have no proof only allegation and gossip.



Care to argue otherwise?
Legal Eagle
5 Dec 2015 #103
PiS withdrew their complaint to the Constitutional Tribunal, so it's meaningless. The TK cannot act without a complaint.

In a nation of 38.5 million people, only PiS had standing to challenge unconstitutional action by a parliament that lost an election? Really? Where were the honest and fair minded PO people then? Why did they remain silent and not complain to the TK? What of their civic obligation to defend the constitution?

Short terms? They're appointed for a single 9 year period.

In comparison to a judge who serves for a life term absent lack of good conduct, this is a short term in office. The appointment requires political connections, and these judges need political connections to get another job. Thus, no appearance of impartiality.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #104
In a nation of 38.5 million people, only PiS had standing to challenge unconstitutional action by a parliament that lost an election?

Why would a party complain about their own laws? That's pretty illogical by all accounts. Incidentally, it's not PO behind the mass protests recently.

In comparison to a judge who serves for a life term absent lack of good conduct, this is a short term in office.

It would be entirely unacceptable for such a judge to be appointed for life. Poland doesn't have any real democratic tradition, hence they are time-limited.
Legal Eagle
5 Dec 2015 #105
Why would a party complain about their own laws? That's pretty illogical by all accounts.

A party consists of its members, and if any one of those PO party members could have decided that the constitution and rule of law was more important than party loyalty. None did. It is only "illogical" to those reacting emotionally to a political issue.

Poland doesn't have any real democratic tradition

Since Poland was the first nation in the Communist Bloc to reject communism, hold free elections, and eject the occupying Soviet Army, I must say Bu11$hit! That comment shows your bias in the matter. If PiS succeeds in removing the remaining communist era academics promoting such propaganda, it will be a good thing.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
5 Dec 2015 #106
the mass protests

LOL ! Guys, just get a life, you lost, go and re-group, prepare a good program, at least several ready-made solutions and maybe you will have some chance in 4 years. What you are doing now... it's so childish and visible that you will end up down the closet with this "strategy". And getting German media involved... really sometimes I think that "Miś" Kamiński and several others were send there by Jaro to screw it up from inside.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #107
Why wait 4 years? ;)

A party consists of its members, and if any one of those PO party members could have decided that the constitution and rule of law was more important than party loyalty.

Your unfamiliarity with Polish law is showing, as it's not possible for "one" PO member to report the issue to the Constitutional Tribunal. There are very specific requirements when it comes to referring an issue there, as outlined in law. Again - this is not the United States and we have specific ways of doing things here.

Since Poland was the first nation in the Communist Bloc to reject communism, hold free elections, and eject the occupying Soviet Army, I must say Bu11$hit!

Completely wrong. Actually, it's quite staggering how wrong you are on this. If we take "Communist Bloc" to mean Warsaw Pact countries, then the first free democratic election in Poland was in December 1990 with the Presidential election, and Parliamentary elections were only held as late as October 1991. Free elections were held in East Germany in March 1990, and Hungary also had them at pretty much the same time. Czechoslovakia also held free elections in June 1990. Bulgaria also held free elections in 1990. The Polish election of 1989 was not free.

The rejection of Communism is also not true, as the PZPR still held over 1/3rd of the seats in the Sejm along with the Presidency until January 1990. East Germany's SED had already reformed and dropped Communism (and the name) in December 1989. From memory, the MSzMP in Hungary also abandoned Communism as early as October 1989.

The Soviet Army (well, Russian Army by that point) also stayed in Poland until 1993, whereas they left Czechoslovakia in 1991. They were also gone from Lithuania slightly before Poland from memory.

If PiS succeeds in removing the remaining communist era academics promoting such propaganda, it will be a good thing.

Obviously your unfamiliarity with Polish law and history is showing itself.

it's so childish and visible that you will end up down the closet with this "strategy".

Strange thing is Greggy that opinion polls are showing that the tide is already turning. PiS are down to 32% support and falling, so it's obviously working. 4 years? Some of us are preparing to get rid of PiS once and for all earlier than that ;)
OP mafketis 23 | 8,382
5 Dec 2015 #108
From memory, the MSzMP in Hungary also abandoned Communism as early as October 1989.

Also Hungary granted asylum to ethnic Hungarians from Romania's very repressive regime as early as 1988, an unheard breach of communist protocal at the time that went unchallenged by the USSR (signalling weakness).

Ending communism was a group effort and Hungarians, Poles, East Germans and Czechoslovaks can all be proud of the roles they played in that noble undertaking without contests about who was first with exactly what.

Too bad that so many here are nostalgic for the PRL and want the current government to emulate its ways.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #109
Ending communism was a group effort and Hungarians, Poles, East Germans and Czechoslovaks can all be proud of the roles they played in that noble undertaking without contests about who was first with exactly what.

Couldn't agree more.

Too bad that so many here are nostalgic for the PRL and want the current government to emulate its ways.

It's particularly interesting to see how many people quite openly advocate methods used by the PRL, isn't it?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,382
5 Dec 2015 #110
Couldn't agree more.

Actually I should have also included Lithuanians and Ukrainians.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #111
Lithuanians

Indeed, all the Baltic countries fought on the streets to defend their independence. I've been to the Museum of the Barricades in Riga, and one of the museum workers was telling how she took part in the construction of some barricades as well as working to establish lines of communication between the defenders.

It's quite sad how quick people like Grzegorz and Ironside wish to throw away their independence for a party led by a man who was brought up drinking the PRL milk.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #112
people like

People like Kornel Morawiecki, an unquestioned patriot and anti-commmunist freedom-fighter, asked to comment on the current crisis by TVP1 news reader, quoted Father Stanisław Konarski, one of the creators of the 3rd May Constitution, as saying: "The law reigns supreme but must take second place to the happiness of the homeland (szczęście ojczyzny)."
Legal Eagle
5 Dec 2015 #113
The Polish election of 1989 was not free.

Per WP:
"In the [1989] election's aftermath, Poland became the first country of the Eastern Bloc in which democratically elected representatives gained real power." (Citing Ronald J. Hill, Beyond Stalinism: Communist Political Evolution (July 1992))

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_legislative_election,_1989#cite_note-Hill1992-1

The Soviet Army (well, Russian Army by that point) also stayed in Poland until 1993, whereas they left Czechoslovakia in 1991.

Which doesn't change that it was Solidarity and the Poles that had ended the Warsaw Pact and thus ejected the occupying Soviets from the region. Per WP:

"[T]he Pact failed to function when the Revolutions of 1989 spread through Eastern Europe. Beginning with the Solidarity movement in Poland and its successful regime change in June 1989."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Pact

it's not possible for "one" PO member to report the issue to the Constitutional Tribunal.

Which only proves that it is a political organ, and not actually a constitutional court, regardless of its name. PO voted to cause this mess, and it is clearly political.
Dougpol1 32 | 3,296
5 Dec 2015 #114
go and re-group, prepare a good program, at least several ready-made solutions and maybe you will have some chance in 4 years.

What PIS are trying to do is to restore the situation pre-1939. It's called a dictactorship by any other description.
They wont succeed and will be fought every step of the way by those who matter, those who live in the cities and towns, and actually get up in the morning and graft and contribute. And I'm not talking about those who prefer life in a rural idyll and expect the rest of us to live in a bygone age and not care about the economy.

Four years of this nonsense? Tri-City solidly voted no. The only area with any intelligence. But they have plenty of history of fight and I am in no doubt who will win this battle.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #115
Per WP:"In the [1989] election's aftermath, Poland became the first country of the Eastern Bloc in which democratically elected representatives gained real power."

Bloody hell. The first thing you're taught at university in Europe is that Wikipedia is not a source. Every single person who knows anything about the Autumn of Nations knows that the May 1989 election in Poland was not free. Even if you count the appointment of Mazowiecki as Prime Minister on the 24th August 1989 as being the end of Communism, he required the votes of the "bloc" parties to be appointed - who got their seats through the entirely undemocratic and unfair list voting system. It's also worth pointing out that the President was from the PZPR, and at that time, the Presidency held real power in Poland and not the government. We can talk all day about how Jaruzelski used that power, but the fact remains that the 1989 election was not democratic and the representatives were not entirely elected democratically.

These are things that you can learn by studying Polish political history instead of relying on Wikipedia as a source.

"[T]he Pact failed to function when the Revolutions of 1989 spread through Eastern Europe."

Again, you're relying on Wikipedia as a source, which is again completely inaccurate. As Mafketis says above, there were many events that led to the downfall of the Warsaw Pact, and to point at one country as being solely responsible (or starting it) is completely wrong. For instance, in 1988, Estonia asserted that Estonian laws took precedence over federal Soviet laws and asserted that sovereignty lay with the republic - Poland had done no such thing at that point. Estonia also held free elections in March 1989, which was well before the June elections in Poland.

As I said - Wikipedia is a very unreliable source.

Which only proves that it is a political organ, and not actually a constitutional court, regardless of its name.

You're grasping at straws through your lack of understanding as to how the Constitutional Tribunal operates.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #116
trying to do is to restore

PiS are trying to restore decency, common sense and concern for the disadvantaged and underprivileged, those snubbed and mistreated for 8 years by the crooked as they come P(rime) O(ffenders). It's no wonder the latter are trying to undermine and sabotage the govt at every step of the way. Haven't PO more than stolen their fill in 8 years' time?
Dougpol1 32 | 3,296
5 Dec 2015 #117
Haven't PO more than stolen their fill in 8 years' time?

I wouldn't know Polonius. What I do know is that PIS would like to steal from me.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
5 Dec 2015 #118
PiS are trying to restore decency, common sense and concern for the disadvantaged and underprivileged

So why haven't they done anything yet? All I've seen is them removing people from their jobs, causing constitutional problems and generally doing absolutely nothing to help those worse off. They've had several weeks now to pass the law on providing 500zł for 'every child' - why haven't they done it yet? Is it because PiS actually have little interest in helping the worse off?

What I do know is that PIS would like to steal from me.

Someone has to pay for the bribing of villagers.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
5 Dec 2015 #119
Some of us are preparing to get rid of PiS once and for all

And that will lead you to the bottom of the closet.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
5 Dec 2015 #120
haven't they done anything

Who can fucntion when a band of frustrated losers are constantly stirring up trouble, creating ersatz conflicts and diverting the attention of the democratically elected government. Add since when are you, hypocritical phoney, a huge advocate of the 500 zł baby allowance? Anything to clobber PiS with, innit?


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