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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


Ironside 49 | 10,311
3 Dec 2015 #31
Make peace not PiS!

PiS OFF?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
3 Dec 2015 #32
Latest news : Duda spoke to the country, but it looks like he's made a complete mess of things. He hasn't referred to the decision today, only that he took the oaths yesterday because it "reflected the will of the Sejm". Furthermore, his PhD "promotor" has spoken out against his actions, saying that it's unacceptable and that he has brought shame upon his old law department.

It looks to me like Duda is lost. He can't follow the Constitutional Tribunal's ruling without upsetting PiS and their supporters, but if he fails to follow the judgement, then he will have openly broken the Constitution - which will set him up for being humiliated in the future after he can no longer hide behind the Presidency. I bet he won't sleep very well tonight.

Trying to sum up the situation for any foreigners that might be curious about what is going on :

Today, the Constitutional Tribunal (TK) ruled that the election of three judges to the TK by the previous Sejm was lawful. They also ruled that the election of two judges was unlawful.

The TK also ruled that President Duda is obliged to take the vows of the three legally appointed judges "immediately, without delay" - which he failed to do so and still hasn't done so at the time of writing. He is obliged to follow the the rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal.

Quoting from the Polish Constitution :

Article 189

The Constitutional Tribunal shall settle disputes over authority between central constitutional organs of the State.

Article 190

Judgments of the Constitutional Tribunal shall be of universally binding application and shall be final.

Essentially, we have a constitutional crisis on our hands. No-one has ever defied the Constitutional Tribunal before, and the quoted articles above make it crystal clear that there's no legal possibility of doing so. If Duda doesn't receive the oath from the three legally appointed judges, then we have a very, very serious situation on our hands.

The President addressed the nation, stating clearly that he does not intend to derecognise the oath given by the three illegally appointed judges. What this means in practice is completely unclear.

Finally, December 9th - the TK will rule on whether the recent law by PiS annulling the appointments of the three now-legally appointed judges is lawful. If (as expected) - they rule that PiS only had the power to appoint 2 judges (in accordance with today's decision), it becomes an outright fight between the Constitutional Tribunal and the government. Legally, the government are wrong - but can they be forced to accept the decision of the Constitutional Tribunal?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
4 Dec 2015 #33
Duda spoke to the country, but it looks like he's made a complete mess of things.

Three weeks into PiS as a ruling party and already the biggest government crisis since.......? I see they aren't wasting any time.

It looks to me like Duda is lost.

Yep, he's caught between loyalty to the party and loyalty to the country and constitution. something tells me he's not made for such pressure and will probably break soon (or be discarded by the party and forced to resign, who would be president then?)
Borsukrates
4 Dec 2015 #34
Duda (...) hasn't referred to the decision today

That's on purpose - right-winged media talk very little about the Constitutional Court. Out of sight - out of mind. He said he's a president of All Poles, but he's a president of PiS. Duda is a Phd in Law, and he knows full well what he's doing.

his PhD "promotor

Thesis promoter. The promoter's already bashed by another proffessor - because he should be honored to have such a great man come out of his academy. But judging by the earlier open letter of the faculty, the academy seems to think Duda tarnishes the reputation of Uniwersytet Jagelloński.

The best Polish university isn't even in the top 300 universities of the world.

No, Duda is not lost. He will act like nothing happened and move on - old PiS tactic. Start checking news every midnight. You overestimate how much average Poles care about politics, Constitution or not. The legacy of Soviet times is that people still feel helpless and detached.

The Uberprime Minister says Constitutional Court is a politicized third chamber of the parliament. I think he pushed Duda to show him who's the boss. But the Kaczyński who died in plane crash had respect for the Court.

No one has defied the Constitution ? Józef Piłsudski has! And he is the guru of Jarosław Kaczyński. That's something for another thread.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
4 Dec 2015 #35
No-one has ever defied the Constitutional Tribunal before

High time to discard that old commie institution.

It looks to me like Duda is lost.

wrong

Yep, he's caught between loyalty to the party and loyalty to the country and constitution. something tells me he's not made for such pressure and will probably break soon (or be discarded by the party and forced to resign, who would be president then?)

Nope mister you have no clue.

Duda is a Phd in Law, and he knows full well what he's doing.

Indeed.

He will act like nothing happened and move on

That what I have said yesterday in here.

You overestimate how much average Poles care about politics, Constitution or not.

Well, those who bother to vote, they care but they voted for changes and against the se, their are not going be bothered if PiS will use hammer to dismantle the system.

PiS was playing by the rules last time and they lost big time.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
4 Dec 2015 #36
Thesis promoter.

Dissertation supervisor.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
4 Dec 2015 #37
Three weeks into PiS as a ruling party and already the biggest government crisis since.......?

From memory, nothing comparable has happened since Jaruzelski's imposition of martial law. No-one has ever openly defied the TK before, and the view of most legal experts is that it's surreal that someone should even think that it's possible to do so given how clear and unambiguous the Constitution is on the matter.

something tells me he's not made for such pressure and will probably break soon (or be discarded by the party and forced to resign, who would be president then?)

I don't think he's going to be able to handle it, agreed. The response was so poor and showed that he doesn't know what to do, hence why his speech seemed to mainly consist of "We will break the constitution because we can".

If he resigns, the Marshal of the Sejm becomes Acting President for up to 60 days.

Duda is a Phd in Law, and he knows full well what he's doing.

I think he knows what he's doing, but you can see that he has absolutely no conviction in his words.

I'm just amused that people like Ironside cry so much about Communism and yet support PiS in using anti democratic methods against the State.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
4 Dec 2015 #38
No-one has ever openly defied the TK before,

Given that it was Jaruzelski who established TK during the martial law your words do sound funny.

I'm just amused that people like Ironside cry so much about Communism and yet support PiS in using anti democratic methods against the State

On the other hand I don't know whether you play slow or simply are slow.
Borsukrates
4 Dec 2015 #39
This wouldn't fly in a democratic country, here it will. Most Poles don't value democracy, the attitude "They're all thieves and nothing will change" prevails. What's the worst that can happen ? Duda losing next election ? Kaczyński can get another puppet and not face consequences.

The response was so poor

Start reading right-winged media - wsieci.pl, wpolityce.pl, fronda.pl (Terlikowski, the redactor, said terrorists of the Charlie Hebdo attacks were right), gazeta polska, Gość Niedzielny etc. See how they report stuff. For example they call for members of Consitutional Court to resign, because they discredited and ashamed themselves.

Radio Maryja, TV Trwam, TV Republika and other church media will praise Duda.

Constitution was more respected 500 years ago in Kano in West Africa.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
4 Dec 2015 #40
See how they report stuff.

Well, when it's all controlled by PiS anyway, it's not a surprise that they just repeat the same narrative.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
4 Dec 2015 #41
PO's regime tried to totally dominate the TK and they got slapped. That's it.
jon357 63 | 15,214
4 Dec 2015 #42
For example they call for members of Consitutional Court to resign, because they discredited and ashamed themselves. Radio Maryja, TV Trwam, TV Republika and other church media will praise Duda.

No surprises here. Coulrocracy = government by clowns
InPolska 11 | 1,821
4 Dec 2015 #43
These past few days, I asked some clients of mine to explain to me about what it is going on in Poland (I have no time now to follow) and I was shocked. It seems that a lot of people in Poland are already not only fed up but also very scared with PiS although the government is roughly 1 month old. A lof of people see the "orbanization" or the "putinization" of Poland and should it happen, it's very scary. My personal life won't change but I expect a lof of Poles to leave Poland, including (but not only) top professionals/intellectuals and foreign investors shall bring their money elsewhere. It seems that the current Polish government is only motivated by revenge and hate. I don't think they"ll last very long.

PS: Do spare me with PO! 1. I don't support PO and 2. 2 wrongs don't make 1 right
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Dec 2015 #44
Duda

Speaking at a St Barbara's Day celebration, President Duda was applauded when he told lignite miners that de-carbonisaiton would not pass in Poland, a country that has 90% of Europe's coal resources. He added that science would help curtail emissions but that is not the same as cutting back production. Today is the holiday of Poland's 200,000 miners of coal, copper, zinc, sulphur, oil, gas, etc.

The mining sector was grossly neglected by the previous pro-corporate EU-toadying PO whose only solution was to closs down collieries and throw people out of work. Hopefully all that will change now that we've got a genuinely sovereign Polish government at the helm.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
4 Dec 2015 #45
@Pol3: I have no time to follow what is going on but according to what I heard from the COP21 or whatever currently held in Paris, the coal industry is going to be severely cut down, which would mean a lot of unemployemnt among miners and it would make more sense to prepare them rather than buttering them up.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Dec 2015 #46
coal industry

In a country with 90% of Europe's coal deposits that would be economic suicide. If the EU is so concerned aboot emissions, let them bankroll carbon r&d so cleaner ways of using fossil fuels can be found and implemented.
jon357 63 | 15,214
4 Dec 2015 #47
economic suicide.

Suicide for the planet if we keep burning coal. Particularly the low grade stuff of which there is so much in Poland.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
4 Dec 2015 #48
The coal industry shall not last very long (too dangerous for the environment and health) and it would make the best sense to prepare for the future, including of course to train miners for other occupations. I have not had any time these past days to get interested in what is going on but according to what I got from COP21 conference, they are talking a lot about that. In such circumstances to let miners believe that they'll be able to work in the mines for many years is not responsible. When Polish miners get unemployed, we'll see their reactions ;)
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
4 Dec 2015 #49
The coal industry shall not last very long

It will last much longer than you.
jon357 63 | 15,214
4 Dec 2015 #50
The coal industry shall not last very long (too dangerous for the environment and health)

Exactly. Time now to draw a line under it.

Nasty, dangerous work, toxic for the environment.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
4 Dec 2015 #51
toxic

Coal can be gasified, desulphurated and closed-system burners limting emissions can be installed plus filters to additionally reduce pollution. All that costs money but it's worth it, so it's high time for Brussels to but their money where their mouth is!


But, when all is said and done, Orbanisation is still better than Michnikisation or Tuskification!
InPolska 11 | 1,821
4 Dec 2015 #52
@Pol: sorry, although I am not crazy about PO, I'd rather have "tuskinization" than "orbanization" or "putinization" which are forms of real dictatorships.
Harry
4 Dec 2015 #53
when all is said and done, Orbanisation is still better than Michnikisation or Tuskification!

An interesting stance for you as a foreigner to take.
jon357 63 | 15,214
4 Dec 2015 #54
can be

Can, could, might, would.

We need to stop mining and using it right now. When your scientific methods are developed, maybe we 'could' start mining again.
Polsyr 6 | 769
4 Dec 2015 #55
money where their mouth is!

Nothing that you dig out of the ground and burn is "money where your mouth is". Period. Why invest stupid amounts of money on a dirty fuel that will eventually run out when we can invest in renewable energy which never runs out? There is nothing good or clean or economical about investing more in coal. It is plain stupid. Politicians do it to please voters associated with coal mining - and absolutely zero other reason.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
4 Dec 2015 #56
Politicians do it to please voters associated with coal mining - and absolutely zero other reason.

Worth pointing out that it was the PZPR that first started the "special privileges for miners" that they demand these days.

Anyway, this has little to do with the issue that Duda is now openly defying the Constitutional Tribunal and hence is acting in opposition to the Constitution.

Well, well, well.

It transpires that Henryk Cioch, one of the PiS candidates to the Constitutional Tribunal was a member of the PZPR.
Harry
4 Dec 2015 #57
Henryk Cioch, one of the PiS candidates to the Constitutional Tribunal was a member of the PZPR.

And Mariusz Muszynski broke the law with his use of Twitter, as well as also showing himself by his Twitter use to be a foul-mouthed racist. Just google "Mariusz Muszynski" and "Twitter" for links.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
4 Dec 2015 #58
Just seen. Yep, he published information about the election during the electoral silence. Just yet another PiS-appointed criminal and certainly one for the PiS and crime thread.
Harry
4 Dec 2015 #59
Just yet another PiS-appointed criminal

A foul-mouthed racist criminal. One really does have to wonder what PIS are trying to do to the Constitutional Court by packing it with criminals and formerly loyal Party men.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
4 Dec 2015 #60
One also wonders what their obsession is with former Party men in general. Maybe it's a case of "better the devil you know", or in this case "better the devil that used to come to your house for dinner".


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