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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #511
One can't help but wonder which parts of of the Constitution bother PiS so much ?

Basically a concerted attempt to erode justice and the rule of law; one that is already blowing up in their faces.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #512
attempt to erode justice and the rule of law

Where exactly do you see that in...

1. Hold all meetings in full composition
2. Have 2/3 majority to rule on anything.

you supporter of the corrupted regime ?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #513
Where exactly do you see that in...

Isn't it pretty obvious that requiring 2/3rds majority to rule on anything ensures that PiS have a blocking veto on the TK?

PiS are so crude politically that it's very, very easy to see through their plans.

And there's another pro-democracy march this weekend too.

March? You mean marches - KOD are now openly calling for demonstrations everywhere.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #514
Isn't it pretty obvious that requiring 2/3rds majority to rule on anything ensures that PiS have a blocking veto on the TK?

So how many members of TK they have nominated ?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #515
2 now legally, plus 4 more to come during this Sejm. 6 nominations gives them a blocking vote on the TK, ensuring that they can introduce any anti-democratic legislation they want.

Do you really think we're stupid? This new law is junk designed to confuse voters - who aren't buying it.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #516
2 now legally, plus 4 more to come during this Sejm.

Which is undemocratic regime, while PO having 10 out of 15 during their rule and violating constitution to get remaining 5, are "defenders of democracy" :))))))))))
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #517
Thing is, we all know that the PiS judges will do absolutely nothing but rule in accordance with what PiS want.

Anyway, to the streets.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #518
Thing is, we all know that the PiS judges will do absolutely nothing but rule in accordance with what PiS want.

You are guessing what we know is that PO judges have been doing that for years as well including breaking law.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #519
Do you really think we're stupid?

Honestly ?
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #520
Wake up!!! Wake up!!! PO is no longer the most popular opponent of PiS. You need to hate someone else.

The only haters and slanders are people destabilizing Poland. Protesting against results of democratic election Nowoczesna, PO or PSL stands as one in defense of the post-communist system.

PiS is changing the country for the worse, why not talk about that ?

For a simple reason that is a lie!

Nowoczesna just pointed out this is designed to paralyze the Constitutional Court.

Whereas TK with all judges form PO would paralyze a newly elected government.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #521
The only haters and slanders are people destabilizing Poland.

You mean PiS and their attempts to override the Constitution so they can do what they want? Yes, agreed.

Protesting against results of democratic election Nowoczesna, PO or PSL stands as one in defense of the post-communist system.

No-one is protesting about the results. Do stop reading the right wing media, it's not good for you.

For a simple reason that is a lie!

It's not a lie. Look at the fall in the WIG20, look at the fall in exchange rates, look at all the extra taxes... PiS are very much destroying the country.

Whereas TK with all judges form PO would paralyze a newly elected government.

No, they really wouldn't. It's the Constitutional Tribunal, so it will analyse laws on their constitutionality and not on their sensibility. No-one is going to rule giving 500zł to parents is unconstitutional.

Honestly ?

Of course you think we are. That's why it's so easy to take PiS apart piece by piece.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #522
Protesting against results of democratic election

Nobody is protesting about the results of the election; people are demonstrating against PIS assuming that winning the votes of 18% of Polish adults means the constitution no longer applies to them. But it might be hard to understand that if one lives an ocean away and reads only the ultra-right media.

PiS are very much destroying the country.

Yes, but we can't expect those who choose to not live here (or choose to be ready to bolt back home at any moment) to care about that.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #523
look at the fall in exchange rates,

Markets were not affected by PiS winning the election but by the hysterical hullabaloo unleashed by the opposition as if the world was about to end. Well, to some extent that was true. The cushy, fatcat kickbacks and privileges of the foreign-capital-serving agents of influence were about to end, and they could not allow that to happen. Hence the no-holds-barred propaganda barrage and high-powered rabble-rousing. It's as simplel as that. The high-soudning slogans -- freedom, democracy, preventing totalitarianims, stopping fascism, threats to the TK and constitution -- were all window-dressing designed to deceive the masses.
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #524
Look at the fall in the WIG20, look at the fall in exchange rates, look at all the extra taxes..

Dramatic, and a contrast to how the markets usually respond to election wins by more trustworthy parties.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #525
trustworthy parties

Nobody except the Michnik/PO/Petru raise such a hysterical hue and cry when a democratically elected party is not the one they voted for.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #526
Why didn't PiS just leave the TK alone, or merely protest over the 2 illegally appointed judges?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #527
merely protest

From hindsight it may seem to be an over-reaction or, as you yourself have conceded, a deliberate trap and pretext to unleash all hell round the issue.
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #528
or merely protest over the 2 illegally appointed judges?

Because only being able to appoint two judges would mean that any unconstitutional laws they try to pass will be pulled up as such by the TK, they need to have five in order to not worry about the constitution stopping them from doing whatever they want.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #529
From hindsight it may seem to be an over-reaction or, as you yourself have conceded, a deliberate trap and pretext to unleash all hell round the issue.

Thing is, if PiS had merely protested against the 2 extra judges (and the TK would inevitably have ruled that it was illegal) and completely ignored it otherwise, PO would've been in a terrible position. It's astounding how PiS managed to put people on the streets so quickly - when all they had to do was to say "fine", and if their real target was the TK, it wouldn't have been difficult to introduce some laws to bait the TK with - every law deemed unconstitutional could be used as a "look, PO are using their judges against us" victim-complex type attack. Would've worked fine, and PiS could have gotten on with their policies.

Because only being able to appoint two judges would mean that any unconstitutional laws they try to pass will be pulled up as such by the TK, they need to have five in order to not worry about the constitution stopping them from doing whatever they want.

Indeed. It's all about the fact that PiS obviously want to introduce laws that will be very much unconstitutional.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #530
You mean PiS and their attempts to override the Constitution so they can do what they want? Yes, agreed.

Won't dignify that spam with an answer.

No-one is protesting about the results.

Sure they are, I'm not talking about their pretext. In fact they are protesting against results. Questioning democracy.

It's not a lie.

That what you say.

PiS are very much destroying the country.

Paranoia hit you hard this time or too much garlic in your diet.

No, they really wouldn't

Oh yes their really would. Last six months of their action is very fresh and they can be see for what they really are.

It's the Constitutional Tribunal, so it will analyse laws on their constitutionality and not on their sensibility

Nah, they don't, they go from one blunder to the next.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #531
Markets were not affected by PiS winning the election but by the hysterical hullabaloo unleashed by the opposition

Wrong. Markets don't give a flying feck about any of that, they were affected by external developments.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #532
Sure they are, I'm not talking about their pretext. In fact they are protesting against results. Questioning democracy.

No, they really aren't. Again, just because PiS spent 8 years questioning every result doesn't mean that the opposition is now questioning the result. It's exactly our faith in Polish democracy that causes us to defend it.

Don't worry Ironside, we're not going to let you win this one.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #533
Don't worry Ironside, we're not going to let you win this one.

Are you going to trigger off another Donbas ?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #534
Nope. The whole of Poland is with us. If PiS don't stop, then numbers will keep growing on the streets. Pretty simple, really.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #535
Nobody is protesting about the results of the election

They are ....if they question right of the democratic majority to rule they are in fact questioning result of the election, it has been started by MP's who should known better but they don't.

people are demonstrating against PIS assuming that winning the votes of 18% of Polish adults

You are talking porkies again Harry. 18% is a number taken from your backsides, majority of those who bother to vote is not 18%. Stop spreading lies and questioning results of this election.

I'm this way you and people like you are destabilizing Poland. How? In this case any election ever can be always questioned and if this coup against a legal Polish government succeeds legality of following governments will questioned. By any means necessary.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #536
They are ....if they question right of the democratic majority to rule they are in fact questioning result of the election, it has been started by MP's who should known better but they don't.

No-one is questioning their right to govern, we're demanding that they stop breaking the Constitution and start respecting it. The attempts to destroy the Constitutional Tribunal are very, very obvious, and we won't stand for it.

Anyway, if this government falls because of massive street protests, then it will be their own fault.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #537
The whole of Poland is with us.

Wow, so how about early elections or referendum on TK ?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #538
Works for me.

Would it work for PiS, though? Surely they would never risk a parliamentary majority in a second election or a referendum on the TK?
Harry
16 Dec 2015 #539
how about early elections

Well, if PIS could win 66% of the seats in parliament, they could just change the constitution any time the TK says a PIS law breaks the constitution, so perhaps PIS should be given the chance to ask the people of Poland to vote on whether PIS should be given the power to change the constitution.

referendum on TK ?

That would be unlikely to meet the 50% turnout requirement and thus be a waste of money.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #540
Well, if PIS could win 66% of the seats in parliament, they could just change the constitution any time the TK says a PIS law breaks the constitution, so perhaps PIS should be given the chance to ask the people of Poland to vote on whether PIS should be given the power to change the constitution.

I entirely agree.

Having said that, given that the latest news is that the UAM University Senate has come out against Duda's actions, the pressure is growing and growing on him. Presidential elections might not be that far away...


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