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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
15 Dec 2015 #481
For starters but the long-range goal should be the creation of large, viable Polish corporations.

The problem is that it requires immense amount of capital. This is Putinism, but the problem is that the country has to spend huge amounts to get there. I quite like what Orlen and PZU have been doing - they've been trying to buy up companies in smaller surrounding countries to create regional powers. It seems to be effective so far.

Are there any such mixed companies at present?

Most of the strategically important companies are like that - for example, PKO Bank Polski, PGNiG, PGE, PZU and so on. It's not a bad way of doing things. In some cases, privatisations are to try and allow further development - for instance, PKP Cargo and PKP Intercity should be privatised so that PKP PLK (who operate the railway lines) can get on with the job of looking after and developing the infrastructure while not having to worry about the interests of sister companies.

The problem is that PiS will really hurt PKO and PZU with the bank tax - this is money that they could be using to expand further (both of them had plans to buy up a lot of the smaller foreign-owned banks here) - but instead, the money goes to the government. Ideally - you want to encourage Polish business by the government retaining a minority share while using the best practices from the private world.
pweeg
15 Dec 2015 #482
Even zloty you take from the banks is 20 zloty less lending they can provide.

Lending money stimulates the economy and provides jobs.

It's why governments in other countries, EU, USA and the UK give money to the banks.

It's not palatable, but it works.

The socialist thinking of taxing everything that is profitable and giving it to the needy is primary school economics. Look at the economy of any post communist country, destroyed by economic naivety.
G (undercover)
15 Dec 2015 #483
The problem is that it requires immense amount of capital.

The problem is that you don't have much clue about things you comment on. It's not about government spending billions to "create" new state owned companies. Florek, co-owner of Fakro, came up with a concept of 1% revenue tax for companies operating in Poland that have +1 bln EUR in global sales, then use that money to support SME. That's the approach we should adopt. But when you come up with quality of customer service in retail banking when repolonization of banks is mentioned, that's not the level one can seriously discuss anything.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #484
As is becoming usual, PiS are announcing things late at night and steaming ahead the very next day with their plans. Now we see that they plan to introduce legislation for the Constitutional Tribunal tomorrow morning - and it was announced tonight. This is just making a mockery of democracy and shows the real intention to take over everything by any means necessary.

Enough is enough. People will be on the streets this weekend. Again.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #485
PiS are announcing things late at night

Unlike glorious "democrats" from PO that late at night were meeting at cemeteries to discuss how to steal our money.

People will be on the streets this weekend.

You can stay there whole winter. Morons.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,381
16 Dec 2015 #486
"democrats" from PO that late at night were meeting at cemeteries to discuss how to steal our money

By this point you think that PiS's plans are any different?

This is just making a mockery of democracy and shows the real intention to take over everything by any means necessary.

Kaczynski hates democracy and rule of law and the idea of civil society. He wants a society with an unaccountable government (I think his term is 'silne państwo' or some such rot) that can dole out rewards to the good kids and punish the bad kids (the stern father) and a strong church to be the kind mother.

It's a fundamentally non-western, non-democratic tradition that is outdated by several hundred years. He can't achieve this goal because it's impossible but he can do a lot of damage trying.

PO aren't much better but at least their goals are sort of doable, Kukiz is a rebel idiot who will not be able to transform from being against the system to part of it (which he has to do if he wants to achieve any of his goals, though since his goals are so puerile I really hope he fails spectacularly).
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #487
Kaczynski hates democracy

Tusk/Kopacz/Schetyna/Siemoniuk/Petru hate democracy.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
16 Dec 2015 #488
Unlike glorious "democrats" from PO that late at night were meeting at cemeteries to discuss how to steal our money.

Wake up!!! Wake up!!! PO is no longer the most popular opponent of PiS. You need to hate someone else.

What's the point about complaining about PO ? PO is not the future. Rule of PO is over. So why bother talking about it ? PiS is changing the country for the worse, why not talk about that ? Accusation of nepotism, cronism, corruption are deflected with "But PO did this more!". Is this supposed to be an improvement ? Where's the good change ?

Even the spokesman of Andrzej Duda admits PiS is not better.

Podczas rządów poprzedniej koalicji także dochodziło do łamania prawa, do łamania obyczajów politycznych, także, po części, łamania zasad wolności słowa.

- Marek Magierski.
Stop obsessing over a party that has lost elections and will probably not rule again. PO and PiS are much the same, because they base their decisions on the same popularity polls. .Nowoczesna won huge popularity by not being like either.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #489
Nowoczesna won huge popularity

Indeed, PO now have a worthy successor. Nowoczesna have won huge popularity through glib, slick and cleverly phrased demagoguery designed to dupe the masses, delivered by a handsome, charismatic rabble-rouser. And it has worked so far. But like PO, the bankster Petru gang are but another pro-corporate lobby on the payroll of foreign business interests.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,381
16 Dec 2015 #490
Nowoczesna have won huge popularity through glib, slick and cleverly phrased demagoguery designed to dupe the masses

This sounds like PiS. Care to address things they've actually said or are you happy just to echo the correct party line?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #491
You can stay there whole winter. Morons.

Look at the high level of intellectual discourse from a PiS supporter. It's the kind of thing that puts fear into anyone that didn't finish primary school, like PiS supporters.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,381
16 Dec 2015 #492
anyone that didn't finish primary school, like PiS supporters.

This is a big problem in Polish politics, there's no political language that can unite Polish people. All parties are based (in part) on despising a large segment of the Polish public. They're all alike in that, they just despise different large segments so Polish politics will remain a war of all against all for the foreseeable future.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #493
PO is no longer the most popular opponent of PiS.

Swetru is the same shyt with slightly different make-up. UD -> UW -> PO -> PO/Swetru. They are already talking about transfering some MEPs into Swetru.

Nowoczesna have won huge popularity

They have won shyt.
* the only polls showing their "huge popularity" were paid by Gówno.
* they pose as "something new" without a word about their real position on the actual issues. Kukiz also had +20%, for a while.

Soon the time will come to vote on serious matters, banks, 500 PLN etc. Swetru will either show his true colors voting for banks and against people (thus going down to 7-8%) or... If he votes for the change, he will lose any credibility criticizing the "regime".

BTW name me 3 people other than Swetru in the whole thing. I'm waiting. It's not a political force but big empty nothing created by the anti-change media.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #494
and against people

Very, very crude populism right there.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #495
For Swetru/PO and their masters people don't matter. It's the "They are going to die out ? Come on, we will import new ones, there are many peasants in this world" kind of thinking. Everything for "elites", the funny thing is, useful idiots like you think they belong to that "elite", while in think it's top 0.1% they care about, not top 45%.
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #496
It's the kind of thing that puts fear into anyone that didn't finish primary school, like PiS supporters

Spot on - without any sort of programme (except abusing the constitution) that's all they can actually do - spew abuse.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #497
without any sort of programme

That is Swetru and his "modernity". BTW name me 3 people other than Swetru in the whole thing. Without using google.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #498
they've actually

The whole Petrtu/PO/Michnik camp have been saying democracy is in danger, the constitution is threatened, we're on the road to totalitarianuism, fascism is coming, etc,. etc, ad nauseum. The shysters dont' give a flying f*ck for the high-soundingn slogans but know they could never get much of a following if they laid their true cards on the table: WE ARE LACKEYS OF WESTERN BANKS AND CORPORATIONS AND OUR PERKS AND KICKBACKS ARE IN DANGER IF PiS COME TO POWER AND START EXPOSING OUR MACHINATIONS.
nothanks - | 640
16 Dec 2015 #499
politico.eu/article/give-pis-a-chance-poland-kaczynski-andrzej-duda-szydlo/

Give PIS a chance
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #500
Give PIS a chance

Nice! All we are saying: GIVE PiS A CHANCE!
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #501
Petrtu/PO/Michnik camp

They violated the constitution.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #502
without any sort of programme

PO sailed through 8 years without any real programme and no true reforms.
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #503
And did very well indeed. All the numpties who are briefly in office at the moment have achieved is chaos, scandal and mess.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #504
And did very well indeed.

For foreign government, unelected supernational bodies and foreign financial institutions. Tusk didn't get that "job" in Belgium for nothing.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #505
chaos, scandal and mes

...all cleverly whipped up by the Petru/PO/Michnik hate industry....you forgot to mention that key point!
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #506
All plain for everyone to see. And there's another pro-democracy march this weekend too.
G (undercover)
16 Dec 2015 #507
pro-democracy

Pro-regime that had been holding power for 8 years due to media/special services manipulations, got booted out in democratic elections and now want to overthrow democratically elected authorities.
Borsukrates 5 | 131
16 Dec 2015 #508
Indeed, PO now have a worthy successor. Nowoczesna have won huge popularity through glib, slick and cleverly phrased demagoguery designed to dupe the masses

PiS just drafted a law that will require, among other things, the Constitutional Court (TK) to:
1. Hold all meetings in full composition
2. Have 2/3 majority to rule on anything.

.Nowoczesna just pointed out this is designed to paralyze the Constitutional Court. It will work like this because:
* Currently TK can have three 5-judge teams working independently. Now with only one team, it will take them 60 days to rule on anything.
* Requirement to have 2/3 majority to rule on anything will make many hearings inconclusive. Constitutional Court rules on the extremely important matters. It's the main safeguard of Constitution, and Constitution prevents a state from slipping into dictatorship or tyranny.

That's not demagogy, that's simple logic. .Nowoczesna simply pointed out the law drafted by PiS would make Trybunał Konstytucyjny irrelevant.

There's no need to use demagogy to criticize PiS. It's sufficient to point out facts and use basic logic.

One can't help but wonder which parts of of the Constitution bother PiS so much ?
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #509
and now want to overthrow democratically elected authorities.

Overthrow? What planet are you on? Nothing about the pro-democracy protests are about 'overthrowing' anything.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #510
on the extremely important matters

It is ludicrous for 5 people to conclusively rule on matters of vital state importance. Even the current law states that the full panel is required to rule on issues of great significance. So the recent TK rulings were invalid for that very reason.


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