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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #541
Would it work for PiS, though?

More likely it wouldn't work for PO/PSL :))))

That would be unlikely to meet the 50% turnout requirement

Just merge it with referendum on the Euro Area and that's it.

Presidential elections might not be that far away...

It depends on one's personal perception of AD 2020.
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #542
Having said that, given that the latest news is that the UAM University Senate has come out against Duda's actions, the pressure is growing and growing on him.

I suspect he'll survive this disgrace but not the next one.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #543
No, they really aren't

Yes their are, yes their are, yes their are.

Again, just because PiS spent 8 years questioning every result

They weren't questioning results but deeds and actions of a government that is an entirely different issue and their weren't doing it on the streets. They were doing what opposition does.

It's exactly our faith in Polish democracy that causes us to defend it.

We? Give me a break you are a foreigner you have not dog in this fight. You don't have convictions and views you just assume some. Anyway people who are doing this are either fools or criminals without a slightest care for this country and for consequences of their actions. If you think that that idiotic Petru or PO have growing support and that majority of people who bother to take interest in politics supports them you are a fool as well.

People who set fire to a building will burn too.

Don't worry Ironside, we're not going to let you win this one.

Stop flaming and playing games delph I know you don't care one way or the other as you are a typical p(..) you think is funny, you like to pretend. Find yourself a psychopath test.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #544
UAM University Senate

Whether the UAM Senate burbs, f*rts or passes a resolution -- it doesn't amont to a hill of beans.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #545
They weren't questioning results but deeds and actions of a government that is an entirely different issue and their weren't doing it on the streets.

What are you on about? PiS were on the streets constantly demanding the resignation of the government. It was normal to go out on the 10th of each month and see demonstrations about the government!

We? Give me a break you are a foreigner you have not dog in this fight.

I absolutely have a dog in this fight.

You don't have convictions and views you just assume some.

I believe in the Constitution and in democracy and don't want to live in a country where both are abused.

Anyway people who are doing this are either fools or criminals without a slightest care for this country and for consequences of their actions.

I assure you that they do care, and they're not going to let this country fall into the hands of pseudo-nationalist bandits. Calling people "fools" and "criminals" is a splendid way to get them on the streets, by the way.

Stop flaming and playing games delph I know you don't care one way or the other as you are a typical p(..) you think is funny, you like to pretend.

But this isn't a game. This is very, very real.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #546
I suspect he'll survive this disgrace but not the next one.

Bronek approves your message.

pl.memgenerator.pl/mem-image/rzal-i-bul-pl-d018bc

He's ready for the come back :))))
jon357 63 | 15,214
16 Dec 2015 #547
If you think that that idiotic Petru or PO have growing support

It certainly looks like the PiS clowns who got in office with 18% of the votes have haemorrhaged support due to their assault on the constitution. It will be interesting to see what sort of turnout the pro-democracy demonstrations get, especially since it's the last Saturday before Christmas.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
16 Dec 2015 #548
Whether the UAM Senate burbs, f*rts or passes a resolution -- it doesn't amont to a hill of beans.

So... you don't care about rule of law _or_ education. Just how do you expect Poland to prosper? Magic beans?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #549
rule of law _or_ education

The law and education can easily be bent to serve outside corporate forces. The PO have been doing that for 8 years. Now it's Petru's turn.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
16 Dec 2015 #550
It certainly

In the end we will see what will happen. I just see no point for your flaming here. Is not as you can whip up some support posting on PF.

18% of the votes

Whoever is repeating such a tripe is in fact a clown.

I'm convinced that defenders of the post-colonial state do not have majority and that support them do not grows. All this is just a backlash of black propaganda but that nothing new.

Rather opposite I haven't been supporting PiS but now I will even if I don't like to be put in such a spot. Just because I know those people form so called "opposition"!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #551
In the end we will see what will happen. I just see no point for your flaming here. Is not as you can whip up some support posting on PF.

PF comes up frequently on Google for Polish related issues, so you would be surprised. It's why it's so good that you insult and berate people on here while showing your support for PiS.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
16 Dec 2015 #552
PF comes up frequently on Google for Polish related issues, so you would be surprised.

That's why you were ordered to post all that mess here ?
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
16 Dec 2015 #553
No-one ordered me to do anything.

Speaking of which, no-one mentioned that the TK decision from the 3rd of December was published. Duda's refusal to swear in the new judges now becomes even worse, as he has absolutely no constitutional basis to do so.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
16 Dec 2015 #554
18% of the votes

What % of the votes did the PO losers get?
Borsukrates 5 | 131
17 Dec 2015 #555
People didn't even vote for PiS much. They largely voted against PO, which stopped doing much. PiS won that election by pretending to be calmer, more moderate than 8 years earlier. In particular, radicals like Kamiński, Macierewicz, Ziobro and even Kaczyński went into hiding. Moderate Szydło as prime minister, Gowin might be minister of defense.

That's why many people are protesting. They feel cynically cheated by Jarosław Kaczyński. Politicians hidden during elections take most important seats in government. Kamiński, Ziobro, Macierewicz are back, and Macierewicz even got a promotion. Topics from PM's expose are clearly not a priority. Smoleńsk, Radio Maryja, trampling Constitution are.



Dougpol1 32 | 3,296
17 Dec 2015 #556
Topics from PM's expose are clearly not a priority. Smoleńsk, Radio Maryja, trampling Constitution are.

Yes. Because like children from problem families, PIS politicians have ongoing psychological problems. Except that somebody should pull them up on the fact that they are not children.....

In terms of their age....
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
17 Dec 2015 #557
The law and education can easily be bent to serve outside corporate forces.

So what do you propose to use instead of the rule law? The unquestioned authority of the party?

What about education? Correct ideology or impartial reality?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Dec 2015 #558
instead of the rule law

No-one is quesitoning the rule of law as such, but that term has been used by very different groups and regimes over the years. And for 8 years PO's rule of law somehow favoured that party's priorities and goals.

Are you saying that under PO courts and judges were 100% unbiased and impartial and under PiS they are 100% biased and partial? Was stacking the TK with 14 PO appointees and 1 from PiS fair, impartial, democratic, pluralistic or what?

Judges are hunman and subject to temptation and will always cast a favourable glance at those who appointed them. Maybe some other means of screening and selection is needed.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
17 Dec 2015 #559
No-one is quesitoning the rule of law as such,

Yes, you are. Picking and choosing which laws to follow is a very dangerous path for a government to follow.

Are you saying that under PO courts and judges were 100% unbiased and impartial and under PiS they are 100% biased and partial?

perhaps in your fevered, partisan imagination I am, back here in reality no.

Part of the rule of law, means that a new party in power can't make a running start changing everything it might like to, inconvenient but probably for the best, overall. It frustrates revolutionaries, but revolutions are proven to be a terrible way to try to improve society, incrementalism works a lot better in the long run.

Had PiS accepted the original TK ruling then they'd be able to be working on implementing their program, but now they're stuck in place and alienating many of the swing voters that put them in power. An absolute own goal.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
17 Dec 2015 #560
18% of the votes

What % of the votes did the PO losers get?
jon357 63 | 15,214
17 Dec 2015 #561
More a question of what they'll get when snap elections are called - after all, this regime, due in large part to their contempt for the constitution has already started to collapse. They are terrified.
G (undercover)
17 Dec 2015 #562
More a question of what they'll get when snap elections are called

Most likely between 8 and 12%.
jon357 63 | 15,214
17 Dec 2015 #563
Nostradamus, are we?

Based on last time PiS crept into office on a low turnout, it was heartwarming to see the large turnout that got rid of them. The pro-democracy demonstrations across Poland suggest this may well happen again.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
17 Dec 2015 #564
Duda's refusal to swear in the new judges now becomes even worse, as he has absolutely no constitutional basis to do so.

They ruled in the case of a bill from the previous Parliament which has been amended by the current Parliament.
The reality crated by the law created by the previous bill is not longer binding and hasn't been valid by the time those TK judges decided to have a go at it.

They ought to know it, hence their action can only be read as a politically motived decision and has nothing to do with the law but all with politics.

That's why many people are protesting. They feel cynically cheated

Not true, those people whop are protesting are the same people who voted for PO or Nowczesna.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
17 Dec 2015 #565
They ruled in the case of a bill from the previous Parliament which has been amended by the current Parliament.

Doesn't work like that. The TK ruled on the law as passed by the previous government on the 3rd December. The amendments were judged on the 9th December.

The reality crated by the law created by the previous bill is not longer binding and hasn't been valid by the time those TK judges decided to have a go at it.

That's not how Polish law works.

They ought to know it, hence their action can only be read as a politically motived decision and has nothing to do with the law but all with politics.

Your attack on a democratic institution is entirely the kind of thing expected from the PZPR-bis known as PiS.

More a question of what they'll get when snap elections are called - after all, this regime, due in large part to their contempt for the constitution has already started to collapse.

If they call snap elections, it will be a non-partisan bloc against PiS with Kukiz standing alone. PiS would have no chance.
Ironside 49 | 10,311
17 Dec 2015 #566
Doesn't work like that.

Says you.

The amendments were judged on the 9th December.

I'm not talking about amendment but about the bill of the new Parliament regarding new judges.

That's not how Polish law works.

That how legislative process works.

Your attack on a democratic institution is entirely the kind of thing expected from the PZPR-bis known as PiS.

My fair and objective assessment of the action taken by those people who have no respect for the law for democracy or for a common decency is valid and true to facts.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
17 Dec 2015 #567
I'm not talking about amendment but about the bill of the new Parliament regarding new judges.

That bill was ruled on by the TK and parts found to be unconstitutional, as you well know.

My fair and objective assessment of the action taken by those people who have no respect for the law for democracy or for a common decency is valid and true to facts.

True to facts? What facts? The abuse given towards KOD supporters, the abuse given towards the opposition and the general abusive behaviour in general?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
17 Dec 2015 #568
The abuse given towards KOD supporters, the abuse given towards the opposition and the general abusive behaviour in general?

When your only tool is a hammer.....
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
17 Dec 2015 #569
I just wonder how long it will take before PiS set their goons on one of these marches. They already tried in Gdańsk last weekend and failed miserably...
Ironside 49 | 10,311
17 Dec 2015 #570
That bill was ruled on by the TK and parts found to be unconstitutional, as you well know

That bill they voted on was at the time of the vote no binding anymore. So they could just save themselves the bother.

The abuse given towards KOD supporters, the abuse given towards the opposition and the general abusive behaviour in general?

Focus, factual as to facts about TK actions.
Do you want to talk about your abusive behavior? We can ask mods and old members here about the pattern of your behavior and abuses you are dishing out here.

When your only tool is a hammer.....

If you are refusing to talk to me it would be a very nice on your part if you would also restrain yourself from talking about me or my posts here. Unless you don't have such a superior manners and brains you claim to have.


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