Gorbachev and Poland

Michail Gorbachev is dead.
He has amazing merits to the world for dismantling the USSR.

In Polish memory he will be remembered as the one who dropped the so called Brezhnev Doctrine which originated in 1960s when Czechs revolted and tried to abolish communism during the Prague Spring.

The Brezhnev Doctrine was a Soviet foreign policy that proclaimed any threat to socialist rule in any state of the Soviet bloc in Central and Eastern Europe was a threat to them all, and therefore justified the intervention of fellow socialist states.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brezhnev_Doctrine

Gorvached dropped the doctrine and didn`t use it against Poland as the first country where communists lost power in 1989. Gorbachev didn`t oppose the creation of the opposition Solidarity government led my Tadeusz Mazowiecki, the first non communist prime minister in the region, in August 1989.

Poland was the first brick which fell off the satellite Eastern Block. Later other countries followed.......

Communists can critisize him for making the Soviet Union fall (halleluja).

But, one of his most important contribution with regard to Russia was lack of outside military intervention (compared to 1917-1921 times).

Russia was able to not only maintain diplomatic relations and increase it's trade and goods exchange internationally, but also it's international image improved. (Very much so among former eastern block countries) for releasing them in a peaceful manner (even tho it seems Russia was forced to do so caused by circumstances).

Many of the most sceptical countries due to long history of conflict with Russia wanted to secure itself as soon as possible before Russia would start to flex muscles again, fearing the worst. (Czech rep, slovakia, Poland, Hungary and baltic states)

Other countries focused on diplomatic relations with Russia (Ukraine, Belarus and Finland) as prime examples.

Today Russia proved Belarus/Ukraine and Finland wrong by butchering Gorbachevs policies and tactic.

Putin wants to appear to be a statesman of the proportion of Stalin, yet he can't even touch Gorbachovs shoe laces to be honest.

When watching old videos of Putin speaking to American politicians in early 1990's he looked like a little Pupil trying to lecture teachers on how to teach. Which was rather comical and sad at best

Now we can discuss why he acted so. Was he such an honest decent benevolent politician?? Of course not. He was a true communist who DID try to save communism from collapse. He failed but he still tried.

There is another reason - the USSR was too weak to send massive troops to its revolted satellites. Ronald Reagan`s administration had imposed not only sanctions on Soviets but also an exhausting arms race. Due to low prices of oil and inefficient economy, Soviets were unable to finance their military. I still remember those Soviet soldiers who were still sent to suppress liberation movements in the last days of the USRR - they were wearing trainers instead of army boots coz they were so underequipped by the falling regime.

I am recalling it coz I see the same situation today - RuSSist soldiers are underfed and underequipped. History has made a nice circle.

People can change....there had always been the hardcore believers and the opportunists.....Gorbatschow was never hardcore. He made career through the means available to him in this place and time.

But as he had to decide he chose the people, not the ideology and not the power...his biggest achievement!

Russia can't be destroyed from the outside, it has to be from the inside...

Stalin also didn`t execute people on his own. And he made a good impression. That is why he was called Uncle Joe by Americans.

Gorbachev wasn`t hardcore but it was a cold calculation of him to introduce his reforms - he perfectly realised the USSR was losing the Cold War. But he also knew that returning to cruel stalinist measures wouldn`t work in the long run. That is why he tried to reform the system another way. It didn`t work either. If he had known the USSR would come to an end soon, he would have never started his reforms.

He still tried to prevent the collapse. When Lithuanians revolted, he sent Soviet troops to suppress it. They were repelled coz they were so demoralised they didn`t really want to fight. .


Yes, Putinists are doing their best now! Thank God.

Now all 5 of them are dead.

Hopefully Putler and Shoigu are going to be joining them soon.

Putler? Thats funny jon.
Do you mean Putin?

yes, coz that`s how the cycle of life goes. We will be also dead one day.

Indeed. Vladolf Putler.


And 30000 orcs have beat us all to it.

gorby was a idealist. and idealism kills. Deng did it right, get rich first, then u will forget about democracy

"Deng Xiaoping thought Mikhail Gorbachev was an idiot.

We know this because Deng's son, Deng Zhifang, said so."

abc.net.au/news/2022-08-31/mikhail-gorbachev-met-deng-xiaoping-1989-changed-history/101390172

Poles can be credited for composing the catchiest song about Gorbachev. It was created by Andrzej Rosiewicz, a very popular pop musician at the time.

The song is in Polish and Russian, quite long. Title: Perestroika - the spring is blowing from the East. Gorbachev and his wife Raisa listened to it during their visit to Poland in 1988. See them in the clip.

and of course we have the scorpions song live in moscow
youtube.com/watch?v=knZnf625TbM

walk down gorky park, tears down my cheeks, what could have been thanks to Gorbachev.
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die.

Which is 2 years younger than the Polish song. It was written when satellites broke the Soviet chains.

During his visit, Gorbachev met the communist leader of Poland general Jaruzelski. They spoke like a true communist with another true communist. Gorbachev alluded to the tragic economic situation in Poland. Jaruzelski realised Gorbi wouldn`t object if Polish communists started talks with the democratic opposition.

Gorbachev`s visit took place in July 1988 while the first official contacts between communists and opposition started in August.

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By most accounts, Gorbachev was a great human being, an inspiring leader who overcame his ideological upbringing to somehow see beyond its strictures and haul the Russian nation ever so slowly into some semblance of democracy/"freedom".

A dirty, rotten disgrace that Putin has seen fit to dismantle all his efforts.

With Gorbachev gone, now it's up to people like Navalny to carry the torch before the flame goes out forever!

I take it then that you are in the Putin camp. If or when in however many years nuclear winter envelopes Europe, you'll have only yourselves to blame.

That was called democratization and communists, also in Poland, used this term to fool people into believing it meant democracy. Of course, full democracy was out of question under communism.

That is why when you praise Gorbachev I have to disagree coz all his reforms were meant to keep the communist system, making it only more efficient.

Depends of course on one's definition of "great", Rich! In 1938, Hitler was selected as TIME LIFE'S MAN OF THE YEAR, therefore deemed by some as great (don't forget, Henry Luce was an anti-Semite, despite his hiring of Henry Grunewald).

Both Putin and in a different way, Hitler, were both "great"....greatly evil.

Agreed 100%.


Maybe, maybe not, what he was, was a realist.


Which made him a great man.


In complete agreement.

Please cut down on your quotes

A guy who presides over the dismemberment of his own country is as a traitor and should be shot. The US has a story to tell on this subject.

Oh dear Rich, I have agreed with most of your posts today, but not this one.
Gorbachev's actions led to the freedom of Eastern Europe.
There is no way that you can paint that as a bad thing.

Of course, he did - at the expense of his country - just as Biden is destroying his.

You sound like Gorbachev's primary mission was to be a great international humanitarian. It was not. His sole mission was to do the best for the USSR and the doctrine he swore to promote - their style of communism. He has miserably failed to accomplish this objective. Your and my view of communism is completely irrelevant in this respect.

Just imagine a US president with the agenda of breaking the country into smaller pieces, returning all land to the American Indians, succeeding, and being proud of it. This guy should be and would be assassinated just like JFK, not celebrated. The assassin would be a new American hero with his own holiday as the man who saved "America".

Yes,and there was a reason for that.


Of course it was not.He had been an ardent Communist,But he saw that Communism was not working.

What you are missing Rich, are two vital points.
The USA under Reagen, massively upped the ante in the Cold War and Gorbachev knew that Russia could not possibly keep up.
The USSR had lost the Cold War.
So he capitulated.
Unfortunately, he had no plan for what to do when Communism was defeated.
He had no idea which way Russia should go.
Then Russia started to lose their East European empire and ordinary Russians turned against him.
Which led us to Putin....younger Russians may have embraced the freedoms he brought in.But older Russians prefer to suffer daily as long as they live in a strong Russia.

Putin kept Russia's economy doing well for many years.
But his invasion of Ukraine was illusory.
The Russian economy is staring to tank and Russian military power is not as strong as was thought and their incompetence, disorganization and lack of morale will kill off Russia for decades.

Gorbachev was half right.
Putin got it completely wrong.

There was no "cold war". It's a meaningless phrase. There was arms race and the Soviets lost.
This, however, did not have to lead to the break up of the USSR. Letting Eastern European countries become independent is another matter and has nothing to do with the breakup.

Just because the UK lost its colonies is no reason for the UK to be cut up into smaller pieces.

Actually, the situation of UK and USSR was similar. The UK lost colonies in Africa, Americas and Asia.
The USSR lost colonies in Europe and Asia. The only difference was that British colonies were far away while Soviet - close.

A great point!

And both empires could no longer afford to keep them.
Gorbachev had no choice.
He had to admit defeat, just as the British did.
The empires were no longer sustainable.

the best obituary on gorby and i've read a few.

few months later the same kgb-led forces mounted a coup and put him under house arrest in Crimea, where he was on holiday. When the putsch collapsed and he returned to Moscow, he chose to go home to care for his wife Raisa, who had suffered a stroke, rather than to play a public politician.

In his unconcealed affection for his wife, he violated the code that demanded of Russian rulers a complete abnegation of private life. But then again, putting private life above the ephemeral interests of the state was his main credo

..When Raisa was diagnosed with leukaemia, he accompanied her to a German clinic to hold her in his peasant's arms. Soon after burying her, he appeared at a backstage party at the Moscow Art Theatre. An actor called on the ex-president to read or sing something. Everyone froze with embarrassment, except Mr Gorbachev. The crowd gave him space, and he sang Lermontov's poem, "Alone I set out on the road. The flinty path is sparkling in the mist."

economist.com/obituary/2022/08/30/mikhail-gorbachev-did-not-mean-the-soviet-union-to-end-that-way

More from what I have read:

The historian Ronald Grigor Suny once astutely observed that Gorbachev "desired to be both Martin Luther and the Pope, both radical reformer and preserver of what might be maintained"

Towards the end of Gorbachev's rule, however, nothing was off limits.

He funded, from his pizza hut commercial novaya gazeta the stalwart of refrom in russia. (shut down after invasion unf.)

and i can't be f*d finding where he took his wife, in the late stage of her cancer back to the collective farm and the tractor where he worked , to refind their youth in her dying days.

Vale Gorby. Another dead hero.

He reformed in order to preserve. Yes.


Not really, after what we stated a line above. He would be a hero if he had started reforms to build sth new on the ruins of communism. No - he believed in communism, till the end. He isn`t a hero to me.


Those are personal relations between him and his wife, he might have been a good caring husband but his job was a politician, not a male nurse and we are judging him as the one who made politics.

The difference is that we decolonised by political choice, over many decades and with careful planning. Nobody wants them back and not everybody wanted them in the first place.

r*SSia however didn't; their colonies got away from them as quickly as they possibly could.

Gorbachev even attempted to stop this in the case of Lithuania with violent military intervention.