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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #301
income from foreign sources

What a skewed comparison! You really are clutching at straws. (I prefer the Polish,,sih version: a drowning man clutching at a razor!). According to oyu a casher at Biedronka can be comapred to a polticla party on the take. A political party influences legislation, the workings of government and the life of the nation and as such should not be on the payroll of foreign sponsors. That has nothing to do with individuals who have little if any influence on the common weal.

Another aspect of this whole row which has hardly been mentioend is PO's desperate bid to continue its TK monopoly. Although pluralism is the cornerstone of democratic governance, PO had 14 appointees on the 15-man TK and their hasty appointment of 5 new ones was intended to perpetuate that imbalance. When the only party in post-PRL Poland ever to democratically win an election outright tried to improve the compositon, PO launched yet another all-out battle in the ridiculous, wasteful and destabilising time-, energy- and cost-consuming Polish-Polish war.

That seems to be a pattern. When PO lost in 2005 they also went into shock and rebounded with furious, no-holds-barred attacks on the democratically elected government. It appears the PO views democracy as comrpising only one of two options: either they win or throw a destructive, destabilising tantrum!
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
10 Dec 2015 #302
When PO lost in 2005 they also went into shock and rebounded with furious, no-holds-barred attacks on the democratically elected government.

As opposed to PiS's restrained "let's give them a chance" approach?

You really have no idea what life on the ground in Poland is like. Move to Poland a live here for a few years and then pontificate about what's going on.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #303
would you replace the Constitutional Tribunal with

The Supreme Court which suffice to deal with the constitutionality of laws in the USA.
Mutliplying bodies (offices, desks, computers, staff, cars, etc.) is wasteful esp. for a poor country like Poland. There should be a 200-seat Sejm and 50-seat senate and govt cars should be Opel Astras except for the President and PM

who migth be assigned Vectras. Also all elections should combine national. local and any referenda being conducted. Huge savings! That would ensure a better turnout. People do not like to be herded to the polls. And terms of office should be standardised -- either 4 or 5 year terms for all. Waste not, want not! Grzech marnować! Kto nie marnuje, temu nie brakuje!
Harry
10 Dec 2015 #304
many people are mercenaries in the employ of foreign corporations that channel their profits abroad

Care to name the Polish companies that you have worked for.

Anyway, good to see that the international media are pointing out exactly why PIS are attacking the court:

PiS has said judges in the Constitutional Court need to be replaced to reflect the new balance of power, Reuters reported. The news agency said gaining control of the court would make it easier for PiS to overhaul Poland's retirement system and curb foreign ownership of banking and media.

euobserver.com/political/131438

And I see from the same article that PIS' attempt to Orbanise Poland is drawing significant negative attention from the EU:

The European People's Party (EPP) intends to call a debate on Poland at the European Parliament's plenary agenda next week, amid concern about democracy and rule of law since a new right-wing government came into power.
Sources told EUobserver they'd like to see a debate with statements from the EU Commission and the Council on "threats to the rule of law," with support from socialist and liberal MEPs.

I does now!

No, child, it does not. Duda's actions are very simply illegal. Please stop trying to apply your American concepts to Poland, they simply don't work here.

You really have no idea what life on the ground in Poland is like. Move to Poland a live here for a few years

The really sad thing is that he's been living here for decades but still has no idea what life here is like.
Borsukrates
10 Dec 2015 #305
On 3rd of May 2015 in Zakopane, Andrzej Duda said the role of Constitutional Court should be strenghtened, and that its competencies should be extended.

What happened ??

pbs.twimg.com/media/CVyuQ6VWcAAXa32.jpg

What's the trick to posting images ?
Registration
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #306
a 1920s phrase book

No, the Holy Bible -- one book that is never outdated.
smurf 39 | 1,981
10 Dec 2015 #307
Of course it's outdated.

Why then are there different version?

What a stupid thing to say.

Maybe you'd like to show me where it says that phrase in the Bible?
Maybe you could also send a link with proof to your accusations?

Y'know, it's only my fifth time asking.
If you don't then I'll take it as truth that you're lying.
So maybe then a Mod could remove your post since it will have then been proved to be nonsense.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #308
different version

Language has evolved since St Jerome's amd Kigg James' time but the basic message remains intact, and that is what counts.
Legal Eagle
10 Dec 2015 #309
What happened ??

PO shamelessly packed the court with political hacks contrary to the election results and discredited it.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #310
its competencies should be extended.

That is still the PiS govt's policy.
Personally I think that's a mistake. Some other way of monitoring constitutionality should be devised, perhaps transferring that job to the High Court. Candidates should be screened for being free of political ties and commitments. Perhaps no-one who ever belonged to a poltical party could apply.

different version?

You want different versions, so be it:

St Mark 12:42

Parallel Verses

New International Version
But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.

New Living Translation
Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins.

English Standard Version
And a poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which make a penny.

Berean Study Bible
Then one poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amounted to a small fraction of a denarius.

Berean Literal Bible
And one poor widow having come, cast in two lepta, which is a kodrantes.

Cropped

seriously comparing

In many ways a govt spox or company spox are the same, They do not dispense the truth but only what which serves their master's interests.

Someone as intelligent and politically savvy as cannot possibnly beleive all the high-sounding rhetoric (meant for Joe Slob and his Missus) alleging that courts and tribunals are indepdnent and judges are impartial because that is written down in some document. Judges are first of all human and subject to all the concerns and temptations off all people everywhere. The Tribunal judges know PO appointees still dominate and rule accordingly.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
10 Dec 2015 #311
Almost anyone has more sense than someone who is delusional and maintains his own subjective reality.

Obviously you're using personal insults to mask the fact that you haven't got a clue about Polish law.

Candidates should be screened for being free of political ties and commitments.

It wouldn't be a terrible idea, but political parties in Poland would never agree to giving up the possibility of controlling it. Still, the idea of making sure that candidates don't have links to political parties would be a good one. I'd go further and say that as they're holding the most important office in the country, then they should also be thoroughly vetted with the results released in public.

The Tribunal judges know PO appointees still dominate and rule accordingly.

Worth pointing out that the Tribunal has ruled against PO on numerous occasions...
gregy741 4 | 1,204
10 Dec 2015 #312
Worth pointing out that the Tribunal has ruled against PO on numerous occasions...

Worth pointing out,PO ignored them rulings altogether.
gregy741 4 | 1,204
10 Dec 2015 #314
nah..its about you being a hypocrite.you and your kind have had chance to protest and "defend democracy" 48 times during PO rule.but you dint say nothing so now,you guys should shut up
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
10 Dec 2015 #315
Worth pointing out,PO ignored them rulings altogether.

gotta cite for that?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #316
has ruled against PO

That is true but now that the barricade is set up and antagonists lined up on either side the judges know which side their bread is buttered on. If PiS had 14 and PO 1, that wouldbe a different story. Now PiS has 6 and PO 9.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
10 Dec 2015 #317
nah..its about you being a hypocrite.you and your kind have had chance to protest and "defend democracy" 48 times during PO rule.but you dint say nothing so now,you guys should shut up

We won't shut up. More and more people are gathering, and people like you won't tell us what to do.

That is true but now that the barricade is set up and antagonists lined up on either side the judges know which side their bread is buttered on.

The situation isn't so simple. The Constitutional Tribunal cannot sit in full session until PiS stop behaving like children and obey the rulings.

Polonius, can you explain for PiS (given that their spokesman did such a terrible job in front of the TK) why PiS can't simply obey the rulings and get on with things?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #318
can't simply obey the rulings

Can the rulings of PO puppets be regarded as valid and legitimate? Too bad Szydło and Duda are p*ssyfooting rather than disbanding the whole TK circus.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
10 Dec 2015 #319
See, this is exactly what the Communists did. They claimed that the opposition wasn't valid and legitimate for various reasons, then used their control of the security forces to beat them down and out.

With the TK - you do realise that you can't just break the Constitution because you don't like it?

Duda certainly looks like he's seen a ghost recently, no doubt because he's realising that prison will be a very humiliating place for him.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
10 Dec 2015 #320
what the Communists did.

That's jsut a red herring to confuse things and cloud the issue. The bottom line is that PiS are a truly Polish party, of, by nad for the people that want only to reform the country and serve the nation. PO are not even a bona fide party but an agent of foreign interests that want to serve their well-paying masters. That is a huge difference.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 Dec 2015 #321
The bottom line is that PiS are a truly Polish party, of, by nad for the people that want only to reform the country and serve the nation.

That's why they appointed a PZPR/PRL public prosecutor that actively took part in the persecution of dissidents to lead the Commission for Human Rights, is it? Is it also why many of them come from PZPR backgrounds and why they're actively destroying the nation, such as ordering the cutting of considerable amounts of the last primeval forest in Europe? PiS aren't truly Polish at all - they even want to allow America to base their forces here, ensuring that Poland remains a vassal and nothing more.

By the way, even the real right wing thinks that PiS isn't truly Polish - have you seen this?
wolna-polska.pl/wiadomosci/smierc-prezydenta-andrzeja-dudy-2015-12

PO are not even a bona fide party but an agent of foreign interests that want to serve their well-paying masters.

PO care far more about Poland than PiS ever will. PiS only care about how much money they can get into their pockets while pretending to be patriotic.
Legal Eagle
11 Dec 2015 #322
Please stop trying to apply your American concepts to Poland, they simply don't work here.

HA HA HA HA!

The concept of the President as a strong chief executive is very native to Poland:

I. The Republic of Poland

Art. 2.

(1) The President of the Republic stands at the head of the State.

(2) The responsibility before God and history for the destinies of the State rests on him.

(3) His supreme duty is to care for the welfare of the State, for its readiness to meet attack and for its position among the nations of the world.

(4) The one and indivisible authority of the State is united in his person.

Art. 3.

(1) The organs of the State subordinate to the President are the Government, the Seym, the Senate, the Armed Forces, the Courts of Justice, the State Control.
...

Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Dec 2015 #323
many of them come from PZPR backgrounds

Tak krawiec kraje jak mu sukna staje. You can only work with what you've got. All parties had to depend to some extent on ex-PZPR people because the regime had reserved positions of expertise and competence for such types. Still, no other party in the Sejm is riddled with as many PZPR-raised types than PO and that somehow never concerend or bothered you too much. PO and its predecessors (KLD,UD, UD) are the ones that sold Poland's assets off to foreign interests for a song causing widespread unemployment (think PZPR's Balcerowicz). A commie-created body (TK) headed by PZPR's Rzepliński took centre stage in the current row. And PO continues to be a client party serving not the Polish nation but the "markets", i.e. Western big-money forces, That too doesn't seem to bother you much either. Only someone with a vested interest in PO's continued power monopoly could be so chauvinistically platformerian and one-sided!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
11 Dec 2015 #324
The concept of the President as a strong chief executive is very native to Poland:

That constitution wasn't enacted legally and was adopted by a Sejm that wasn't elected fairly in the days when Europe went crazy - not exactly a good example.

Trying to claim that a document that was used for 4 years since 966 is not really proof that Poland has any interest in your American traditions.

But do try and address the legal points rather than abuse, won't you? It's not that difficult...
Borsukrates
11 Dec 2015 #325
NEWS FLASH
Beata Kempa, chief of the Prime Minister's Chancellery, decided that the last* ruling of TK (Constitutional Court) is invalid and won't be published in Dziennik Ustaw. Therefore it will never come into effect.

Witek, the official government spokesman, confirmed this.

Kempa said that the ruling was invalid because only 5 judges were present.
* 3 judges refused to participate in the commision
* Zbigniew Cieślak's term was about to end the next day, so he couldn't be present.
* 5 judges were appointed by PiS at night just before the verdict was announced, and they weren't allowed to be judges in their own case.

* (TK ruled that the PO's choice of 3 judges was valid, and the remaining 2 judges - invalid)
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Dec 2015 #326
NEWS FLASH

If this is true (we await official confrimation) then the matter has been defintively resolved. Now the frustrated losers will have to take their hate campaign to some other field of endeavour or try to keep beating the dead TK horse.
smurf 39 | 1,981
11 Dec 2015 #327
then the matter has been defintively resolved

No, it will be challenged. Your understanding of politics isn't very good is it?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Dec 2015 #328
it will be challenged

So they have chosen the "beating a dead horse" option. Sounds like something they'd do.
smurf 39 | 1,981
11 Dec 2015 #329
Certainly yea, you are right, people should not bother using the courts for justice. We should all go back to living on small plots of land and grow cabbage and spuds and just do what are leaders tell us. We can trust them. afterall, they are the ones in power, they wouldn't take advantage of us.

Now be a good citizen and do what you're told, comrade.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,404
11 Dec 2015 #330
If this is true (we await official confrimation) then the matter has been defintively resolved

A little late for calling for respect of rule of law now. The fraudsters and slick and slimy personalities disguising themselves as defenders of the nation are exposed for the party hacks they are (to use your own rhetoric against you).


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