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Throwing away the constitution in Poland?


smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #271
edited

As a born and breed American (who choose to identify with Poles) he learned that phrase during his studies, a concept which is entirely alien to you.

That remark is very much on topic. Well done. But yea, it's quite obvious that you know so, so much about how well I did in both universities I attended. Dur.

Now please go back to never writing to me again like you have promised to do.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
9 Dec 2015 #272
during PO rule they have ignored TK ruling about 50 times.

That would be disgraceful on their part, and I would condemn that in very strnog terms. I look forward to seeing a link to the article.

Why you insists on maintaining an illusion that in Poland rule of law stands?

It has no chance of ever existing unless it's followed, even when inconvenient or frustrating.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #273
TK ruling

The TK compromised itself and showed their true colours when they struck down a vetting law passed by the Sejm back in 2005-2007. There is much to indicate that the TK is merely a branch of the foreign lobbyists party, PO.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
9 Dec 2015 #274
during PO rule they have ignored TK ruling about 50 times.

Thinking... wouldn't that overturn the idea that the TK is just doing POs bidding?
smurf 39 | 1,981
9 Dec 2015 #275
There is much to indicate that the TK is merely a branch of the foreign lobbyists party, PO.

You have replied to Mafketis, but you have not replied to me with proof of your accusations.
Does this mean your accusations were made up?

So you need to either prove your accusations of you need a Mod to delete comment #280
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
9 Dec 2015 #276
So you need to either prove your accusations of you need a Mod to delete comment #280

Give it up, a member accused me of a crime repeatedly (before retracting the accusations) and that thread is still here despite my repeated requests for it to be deleted.

As the starter of this thread, you should keep it on topic. At the moment it doesn't seem like you care.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #277
Thinking... wouldn't that overturn the idea that the TK is just doing POs bidding?@ mafketis

This is immaterial, first of all lets go back to basic. In Poland Constitution is nothing like American Constitution, secondly nobody cares about constitution in Poland nor voters not a legal system nor politicians, it is not respected like in your country.

Hence this call about throwing way constitution do not have a such a devastating effect as would in your country.
In Poland all those slogans about constitution about doing way with democracy, about dictatorship,xenophobia and other alike are just a hysterical cry of a crew that used to have monopoly on ruling in Poland and they are unable to reconcile and come to terms with a fact they have lost an election.

Thirdly Poland still is dealing with consequences of the 40 years rule of Soviets, being colony and so on, and being in a way divided society along the lines and in the ways which are often confusing even to a Pole let alone to a foreigner. I could go into lengthy explanations and if you are really interested but I sense you don't give a damn.

Fourthly
I see it as majority of Poles that voted for changes and anti-establishment parties that TK is a part and a last ditch of defense of the old system that need to be changed. Poles voting for anti-establishment parties and movements gave their consent to decisive actions for a new government as long as it seem to be doing its job i.e. doing way with the old regime and their posts (TK rightly or wrongly is seen as such).

All those hysterical loops and vibrations we can witness in the press and those pathetically weak in support KOD's and all those denunciation on Polish democratically elected government to the foreign press or to European commission and whatnot is counterproductive as foreigners here (PF) seems to painfully unaware off.

Poles seeing that onslaught aimed at Poland do side with PiS government even if they were/are skeptical as to these party abilities or will to deliver promised changes, in other words those actions are buffing support for PiS or at least for current government.

If as it seems those demonstrations will consists from a few family members of PO, some left nutters and foreigners plus paid "heads" they will become a laughing stock for poles.

I suspect that organizers do realize it but then those demonstrations are not aimed at the Polish public opinion but for the foreign press. In this way those empty claims of denouncers of Poland in the foreign institutions would seem a tad more credible.

Verily I tell you don't mind my yesterday posts as I have no been myself and do go attend those meeting, do not forged to take your passports with you as well as your best pinks outfits, t-shorts with "Che" will do.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #278
dealing with consequences of the 40 years rule of Soviets,

You said it. If anyone doubts that they should take into account that.
**The largest opposition party which had misruled the country for 8 years is riddled with ex-commies, more so than any other party in the Sjem;
**The current "constitutional" row centres on an unelected PZPR body (TK) headed by an ex-PZPR guy.
edited
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #279
Today's judgement :

1. The court acknowledges and confirms the ruling from the 3rd of December in relation to the judges deemed to have been legally elected.

2. The term of the President of the Constitutional Tribunal cannot be shortened as this would be applying the law retrospectively and threatens judicial independence. Future terms can be shortened.

3. The President of the Constitutional Tribunal cannot be re-elected.

4. Elected judges are to be sworn in immediately and without delay. There is no basis in law for a 30 day waiting period, and as such, Duda was obliged to swear in the judges immediately after their election in the Sejm.

5. Judges elected by the Sejm begin their term immediately regardless of whether they have given the oath to the President or not. However, they cannot rule in cases.

It's now also clear that the full Constitutional Tribunal cannot rule until this situation has been resolved.

==

Comment : Duda is now in a terrible mess. Despite Ironside's claims, the Tribunal must be complied with - there is no possibility of simply ignoring judgements that you don't agree with. If PiS don't do the right thing now, the pressure will only increase (especially on Duda) - and we will have political paralysis - which will only end in misery for PiS.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #280
Despite Ironside's claims, the Tribunal must be complied with - there is no possibility of simply ignoring judgements that you don't agree with

There are three choices:
- It can be ignored (bill)
- comply with
- TK dissolution
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #281
There are three choices:

There are no other choices but to comply with the ruling.

Your hatred towards Poland is verging on the pathological.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #282
There are no other choices but to comply with the ruling.

I'm talking about reality not about your imaginary world Peter.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #283
Your reality can only end in tears. Do you honestly think PiS are going to be allowed to ignore the Constitution?
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #284
Your reality can only end in tears.

Don't be crying poor little deplhie.

Do you honestly think PiS are going to be allowed to ignore the Constitution?

Yep, mark my words - there are those three options.
Legal Eagle
9 Dec 2015 #285
In Poland all those slogans about constitution about doing way with democracy, about dictatorship,xenophobia and other alike are just a hysterical cry of a crew that used to have monopoly on ruling in Poland and they are unable to reconcile and come to terms with a fact they have lost an election.

At what point is a prior constitution still valid when it lacks popular support? For those who bother to learn Poland's history, there has been a repeated pattern of Poland's constitution being replaced improperly without regard to what the prior constitution required. (The present U.S. constitution did not properly abrogate the previous Articles of Confederation, and is technically illegal from the point of view of that document.) The ignorance of history by the critics needs to be noted.

Thirdly Poland still is dealing with consequences of the 40 years rule of Soviets, being colony and so on, and being in a way divided society along the lines and in the ways which are often confusing even to a Pole let alone to a foreigner.

Under the pre-war Polish constitution, as far as I know, Lech Wałęsa is still the president (unless he transferred the powers given to him to someone else.) If there is some pressure form the EC about constitutional issues, Wałęsa might transfer his powers to Duda, and highlight the dubious claim to authority of the TK. Wałęsa could still be a player here if he wants to play a role. He hasn't been a fan of the Kaczińskis, and I don't know his views on President Duda, but if there is foreign pressure on Poland, I expect that he will side with Polish interests, and not those of foreigners.

Poles voting for anti-establishment parties and movements gave their consent to decisive actions for a new government as long as it seem to be doing its job i.e. doing way with the old regime and their posts (TK rightly or wrongly is seen as such).

The latest constitution makes clear that ultimate sovereignty rests in the Polish nation as expressed in its elected representatives, and it embraces the doctrine of balance of powers. In this case the duly elected President and legislature are speaking for the nation. The TK is not . That should end the issue for purposes of discussion about "democracy" in the republic.

Duda is now in a terrible mess.

Duda executed what is known as "pocket veto" by refusing to give his consent to the undemocratic lame duck appointments, which were considered partially improper by the TK. For the student of Polish history, the lack of a powerful head of state has proved fatal in the past, and led to foreign influence overriding legitimate national concerns and sovereignty. No serious person can deny this, and foreign pressure will be seen for what it is.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #286
At what point is a prior constitution still valid when it lacks popular support?

Entirely incorrect. It has only happened once, and that was during an effective period of dictatorship in 1935. The 1791 Constitution was legal. More to the point - just because something happened in the past doesn't mean that it should happen again.

Under the pre-war Polish constitution, as far as I know, Lech Wałęsa is still the president (unless he transferred the powers given to him to someone else.)

You're clearly not very well educated on Polish affairs, because President Wałęsa has a terrible relationship with Jarosław Kaczyński to put it mildly. There is absolutely no way that he would transfer any "power" to Duda, nor does he have any power to give. In Polish constitutional theory, Wałęsa derived legitimacy from the 1989 amendments, not the 1935 Constitution. He may have received the symbolic symbols from the last President-in-Exile, but in Polish law, this act had no legal basis - it was merely an act to show the people that the PRL was well and truly dead.

The latest constitution makes clear that ultimate sovereignty rests in the Polish nation as expressed in its elected representatives, and it embraces the doctrine of balance of powers.

You haven't got a clue. The Constitution makes it clear that the final decisions regarding constitutional issues reside with the Constitutional Tribunal, which is appointed by the Sejm on behalf of the people. Don't try and cherry pick - the articles are there in black and white, and anyone arguing otherwise clearly has an agenda. It is unprecedented for anyone to argue with the decisions of the Constitutional Tribunal, and even Lech Kaczyński was open about the need to respect the Tribunal even if you didn't agree with it.

Duda executed what is known as "pocket veto" by refusing to give his consent to the undemocratic lame duck appointments, which were considered partially improper by the TK.

Duda did not execute such a thing, because the concept doesn't exist in Polish law. Stop applying American concepts to Polish law - we have a completely different legal system to your American system. Duda has now been ordered twice to receive the oaths by the legally appointed judges - and he has only partially fulfilled the order. Therefore, he is breaking the Constitution. Remember, in Poland, the President (and in fact, everyone) is obliged to follow the rulings of the Constitutional Tribunal - which is why PiS are hell bent on trying to destroy the institution because it stands between them and absolute power.
Legal Eagle
9 Dec 2015 #287
Simply delusional.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #288
Constitutional Tribunal

Is not that martial-law abomination (TK) not a freak or bastard structure only serving to anarchise Poland's political scene? The more so that it is headed by an ex-commie. And then it has begun ruling in its own case. When it struck diown a vetting law it clearly showed who it was created to protect -- commies and collaborators.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #289
Remember that Lech Kaczyński defended the TK, even if he didn't agree with it. What's changed?

From what I remember, it struck down the vetting law because it was clearly unconstitutional and not for any other reason.

What would you replace the Constitutional Tribunal with, out of curiosity?

Simply delusional.

Says the American that bases his legal arguments on American common law rather than Polish civil law.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #290
unconstitutional

I know yiou're not that naive and are only pretending. Urban also proclaimed there were no poltical prisoners in martial-law Poland -- only criminals who had broken the (PRL) law. Politicians, whether PRL or PO, have a nice euphemism for everything they do, and you know it!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #291
You're not seriously comparing the PRL to the modern day, are you?
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
9 Dec 2015 #292
Of course he is, he can't stand the idea of Polish people not being oppressed. For many pseudo Poles their whole identity is built around being oppressed and they wont' give that up easily.
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #293
You haven't got a clue.

About what? He got more sense than you and you are not an expert.

Duda has now been ordered twice to receive the oaths by the legally appointed judges -

You don't know what you are talking about! Stop.

Of course he is, he can't stand the idea of Polish people not being oppressed. For many pseudo Poles their whole identity is built around being oppressed and they wont' give that up easily.

It a biggest lot of crap I have seen on this forum for a while.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #294
About what? He got more sense than you and you are not an expert.

Certainly more of an expert than a clown that thinks that Duda has the right to veto whatever he wants.

If you discredit and disobey the Constitution, then you discredit the entire Polish Nation. At that point, you might as well give the country to Germany and Russia.

You don't know what you are talking about! Stop.

What part of Article 190, Paragraph 1 are you struggling with, Ironside?

For many pseudo Poles their whole identity is built around being oppressed and they wont' give that up easily.

What's remarkable is that they seem to actively want to live in a country where they are repressed. Either that, or they're living in some sort of alternate reality where the village idiot will suddenly be paid on the same level as a Supreme Court judge.
OP mafketis 23 | 8,360
9 Dec 2015 #295
What's remarkable is that they seem to actively want to live in a country where they are repressed.

They don't want to be repressed they want Polish society to be made up of powerful oppressors and a valiant doomed resistance (they certainly want PiS to fail). It's all about clinging to identity-forming myths and the rejection of modernity (and I'm not crazy about a lot of modernity but they carry it to and beyond extremes).
Ironside 49 | 10,282
9 Dec 2015 #296
If you discredit and disobey the Constitution

F C!

What part of Article 190, Paragraph 1 are you struggling with, Ironside?

No, you either playing devil's advocate or talking BS out of ignorance, I'm not going argue with finer points of legal dilemmas as it is a waste of time.

They

No it is all about you, do you always talk about things that exist only I you imagination ?I bet your Polish is as good as delph's
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #297
No, you either playing devil's advocate or talking BS out of ignorance, I'm not going argue with finer points of legal dilemmas as it is a waste of time.

Ironside, what part of Article 190, paragraph 1 do you wish to argue with?

It seems that your entire view is based on what PiS tell you, which is that the Constitution doesn't matter if they didn't write it.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Dec 2015 #298
they are repressed

Are people in a country whose ruling party (for the past 8 years) was an agent of influence or lobbyist serving foreign interests and where many people are mercenaries in the employ of foreign corporations that channel their profits abroad -- OPPRESSED OR NOT? Thanks to slick and glib PO-style propaganda they may not think they are. Especially if they get plenty of bread and circus!
delphiandomine 85 | 18,266
9 Dec 2015 #299
Are people in a country whose ruling party (for the past 8 years) was an agent of influence or lobbyist serving foreign interests and where many people are mercenaries in the employ of foreign corporations that channel their profits abroad -- OPPRESSED OR NOT?

Polonius, may I remind you that you openly obtained income from foreign sources for years and continue to do so?

Especially if they get plenty of bread and circus!

Given that the common complaint is that Polish people have to "go abroad for bread", shouldn't you be happy that they can get their bread in Poland?
Legal Eagle
10 Dec 2015 #300
About what? He got more sense than you and you are not an expert.

Almost anyone has more sense than someone who is delusional and maintains his own subjective reality.

You don't know what you are talking about! Stop.

That is clear, but it won't change the manic behavior.

Duda did not execute such a thing, because the concept doesn't exist in Polish law.

HA HA HA!

I does now!


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