Many here jump down the through of a holocaust denier (Rightly so) but are in denial themselves when it come to the Soviets, no way can the be compared to the allied forces who were complying (In the most part ) to the Geneva convention.
"An interesting description for the likes of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn."
How can that be he was not a Soviet, far from it, there were also Germans who were not Nazis.
In those days the Nazis and Soviets had the support of the majority of their countrymen.
You still don't get it, do you? We are not saying that Soviets were a nice lot happily welcomed by Poland e.t.c. We are saying that this mouments (that quite often are also grave yards) are simple monuments for fallen soldiers who quite often didn't even want to be there. My family had to host a Russian brigade against their will and guess what- no one got raped. So it's not like Soviet soldier is a synonym for rapist.
But i'm not angry, I live in free Poland today, but it is important to remember the mistakes of the past, it is important not to glorify the tyrants with statues depicting them as the saviors of Poland.
Lenka your family was lucky.
30,000 Silesian men (the majority of which had German roots, some having partially Polish roots)[citation needed] were deported to Soviet mines and Siberia, most of whom never returned : Source Wiki.
He saw the light but he was Part of only a brave minority.
I think the mass bullets in the head at Katyn may have given a conscience to the soviets who were delivering the bullets, but as history shows it was all part of a days work for a soviet .
Why do we want statues that glorify the soviet action in Poland.
but it is important to remember the mistakes of the past, it is important not to glorify the tyrants with statues depicting them as the saviors of Poland.
Even more reasons to keep them. It's part of our history. Maybe with an information next to the monument reminding that Soviets occupied Poland and few other historic facts? But by you suggesting demolishing Palace of Culture I can see it's not really the monuments or historic truth you are interested in but your own feelings.
Lenka your family was lucky.
They were. My grandma even yelled at the soldiers for lying in her beds without washing or taking their shoes off. The officer intervened and made soldiers wash.
The Red army were like barbaric hordes rmapagign theri way through Poland and Germany, looting, killing, raping and destroying what they couldn't steal. An uncle in the Polish army around Grodno said when the Red Army invaded they stripped a manor house of everything they could remove and carry, raped the servant girls and led their horses up and down the marble stairs to destroy them.
When Churchill complained to Stalin, the moustachioed, pock-faced evil dwarf replied: "What's the problem if after gruelling frontline combat and long marches a soldier takes a little souvenir for himself or has some fun with a woman?" No, this was no 20th-century army. It could be compared only to the hordes of Atilla the Hun.
We agree a bit but not completely: * I would leave them were they are *I wouldn't do it to 'show the Soviets' but to make sure that even though we respect the fallen soldiers whatever nationality they are they were not the force freeing Poland but in fact occupying it
*I would do it to minimize the effect of the writings on the monument not out of revenge or to spite anyone *I wouldn't mention Katyn( in my opinion that would degrade the memory of ppl who died there) *I see no reason to demolish Palace of Culture and in fact think it's a moronic idea I think that sums it up
"*I wouldn't do it to 'show the Soviets' but to make sure that even though we respect the fallen soldiers whatever nationality they are they were not the force freeing Poland but in fact occupying it "
I would agree with that.
"demolish Palace of Culture and in fact think it's a moronic idea
I see it casting a shadow of old Soviet oppression in Warsaw.
You have every right to your opinion that may differ to mine , I certainly would not try to demean you by inferring that you are moronic.
I think it's moronic for few reasons We both agree that the Soviets harmed Poland and Polish ppl in many ways so why not keep at least one thing that they gave us as part of repatriation? I would prefer the metro but well. Would you suggest to demolish metro if that was what they 'gave' us
Very few ppl view it as Soviet anymore and in fact it's part of the Capital city not insignificant to it's identity It serves the public in many ways and Poland doesn' have the resources to demolish a perfectly good culture building I view it as kind of 'na złość mamie odmrozic sobie uszy' type of behaviour. Demolishing it wouldn't change anything. It won't change the horrible things that happened during Soviet ocuppation and will only make us loose a big building that we can use for good things.
BTW we used to call the palace of culture Stalin's house, my aunt used to tell my cousin to watch he didn't do anything wrong because Stalin would get him.
", I didn't mean to." I get your point now from your last post, and no offence taken.
I guess I am the result of two generations of Poles who have fought the Soviets, and have a strong imprint and detail of the damage that this has caused.
I have no problems with modern day Russians or Germans, Politicians are another matter, I can fully understand the younger generations wish to move forward in a positive way ,and indeed reconciliation is always a good way forward.
But when I see a monument that glorify s the soviet contribution to Poland it hurts on a very deep and personal level.
My wife said she likes some of the old statues and would have one in the back garden, maybe I need to lighten up, but this would be against a backdrop of the pain and loss that my family suffered at the hands of the Soviets, there lies my dilemma.
I understand your feelings and I'm sorry about your family. I hope you don't think I try to deny the horrible acts of the past. I have no such intentions. But this memorials for me are the merit of the war: young boys being thrown in a situation they didn't cause and didn't want to take part in (of course excluding the monsters that were among them) on whichever side. You know that Soviets were awful but they were not more merciful towards their own ppl and for example soldiers that were caught by the enemy couldn't count on their country help and quite often ended in Siberia themself.
I preach compassion for the little ppl, the ones forced to be in the war and killed because of it. We should remember them because they are too the victim's of war.
what a stupid conversation. today's Russians and Russia is not responsible for a single crime committed 70 years ago.get this into your heads.most of em were not born yet.we pillaged Russia many times,and Prussia,and Moldova and Ukraine.
what next? mongols?swedish?fokin hell..stupid PIS and their antics
What is curious about the whole debate is that Russians whom I exchange comments on other forums are quick to note the the former Soviet Union was more usually dominated by non-Russians, e.g. Ukrainians (Khrushchev and Brezhnev) and Stalin was an ethnic Georgian. So it is curious that Putin now wants to claim it was more Russian, and take offense. Putin has been quick to note how these people expanded the borders of the "accidental state" of Ukraine. Yet, he does not want to admit the role of the former USSR in its crimes against the Polish and Ruthenian people.
Russians and Russia is not responsible for a single crime committed 70 years ago
*I see no reason to demolish Palace of Culture and in fact think it's a moronic idea
Yea, I really don't understand people that say this, it's such a cool building.
All the most iconic buildings in Dublin are Cork were built by the British, d'ya think we tore them down? Did we fuq, we moved in and made them our own :D
today's Russians and Russia is not responsible for a single crime committed 70 years ago
Same for the Germans
I will say this though, I knew many Germans before I left Ireland and they really carried a lot of guilt for what their grandparents did. From the Russians I've met they don't have this issue.
the former Soviet Union was more usually dominated by non-Russians
correct.SU was born from Bolshevism implanted there by international thugs sent there by germans with money from London and international thugs from georgia,jews,poles,lithuanians and ukrainians were responsible for atrocities and destruction of Russian culture and its population.
Dzerzhinsky thugs and his czeka killed hundreds of thousands Russians.i dont see Poland taking responsibility for his achievements, but they first to blame Russian for Katyn,even tho it was Stalins and Berias job.both were Georgians.
fok,even if all those crimes were committed by ethnic russians,so what?this stalin generation is dead.poles should stop dwelling in past.its plain stupid
The architecture was "borrowed" from the Empire State building in New York City. Then a unique Polish facade inspired by Polish buildings in Lublin was added. The Commies were masters of stealing Western technology, then claiming it was originally "Soviet".
I see it casting a shadow of old Soviet oppression in Warsaw.
I thought this was settled in the early 90s. After decades of everyone complaining about it as soon as proposals were made to demolish it the majority of Varsovians decided that it had grown on them and most emphatically did not want to have it torn down. Before they started building other tall buildings it was also a handy way to keep from getting too lost while visting Warsaw.
I think the fate of the Palace of Culture is the business of Varsovians since it's in their city. I would be against tearing it down without a referendum of citizens of Warsaw (and private collections should be taken rather than taxing everybody - tearing it down would be a very expensive proposition and those who want to do it should bear the sole financial burden of accomplishing it).
And trying to pretend the Soviet period didn't exist is very harmful and counter-productive. A country can only come to terms with the past if it acknowledges it. Trying to pretend it never happened (or wanting to go back in time and redo the past) causes more problems than it solves.
Why would they? If you are implying that because his surname came from the Szlachta that he is Polish, then Poland is responsible for the achievements Fjodor Dostojewski, Piotr Tchaikowski, and Igor Sikorski. However, had Dzerzhinsky resided in a free Polish state, he would have been jailed and executed.
Dzerzhinsky thugs and his czeka killed hundreds of thousands Russians.i dont see Poland taking responsibility for his achievements
