Poland's post-election political scene

I don't know how much of press in Poland is in Axel Springer hands (care to prove those 80%?) but TVN up until recently was Polish-owned. I think it was bought before elections by some American company which I didn't like, btw, I preferred it to stay Polish at that time.

So who was "bankrolling" them?


Well then you have completely no idea why people are protesting or you're simply lying in my face, like PiS does.


How's that?


They have the right to freely speak their mind and I have the right to make observations and comparisons. I'm not telling you that you shouldn't write this or that, I'm telling you that people like you sound like Russian pro-Putin nationalists, that's all.


Ironside, it seems you can't get your head around what I'm saying.
I compared the comments of people like you to the comments of nationalistic Putin's supporters. Because they're exactly the same. Exactly the same. Do you understand?

You have the same mentality.


No, but judges from the Constitutional Tribunal have been already threatened by the all powerful minister of justice (since he's now the general prosecutor too, sic!) with legal actions.

Do you think authoritarian rule has to come all of a sudden and the situation won't be deteriorating gradually? Do you think Putin got the power he has now overnight? It took him years to turn Russians into well indoctrinated zombies. Now he can do whatever he wants.

You don't have to shoot protesters in the streets to turn a country into autocracy. Russia is a great example of that. All you need is making the right laws (everything is done "legally" then!), doing some tricks, some smoke and mirrors, and, of course, people don't get arrested for different political views but for corruption and "hate speech against the Russian nation" and stuff like that, the media aren't censored, they're just punished for popularising "terrorism", "extreme views" and other funny stuff ot they're simply bought out by "independent" business people ;)


No, Ironside. I've made logical comparisons. Read my post again, if you don't get it.


That Russian guy who commented that Kasparov looks like an ape had also no affiliation not only to the government but to any political party (as he claimed) and he was also entitled to his opinions and his "unfavourable views" about Russian democratic opposition and I was entitled to have an opinion about his opinions.


LOL Ironside, it's you who's calling people like me "damn morons, saboteurs, traitors and punks". Look in the mirror for once...


"So called opposition" - again, as If I was reading a pro-Putin Russian nationalist. There's no "so called opposition", there's only democratically elected oppostion.

I'm not calling the present government "the so called government".
The opposition has to "go"? And what's going to be left? Only PiS? lol One party system? :D


I equate your comments with comments of Putin supporters.


As far as I remember you wrote how you hate the protesters and that they should be shot or sth of this kind. I don't remember the exact words but I remember how shocked I was by what you wrote and I think delph commented on that - maybe he remembers which thread that was.


As I wrote before - any autocracy and dictatorship use this mantra (Polish commie governments included).


That's right and that's why they can be excused and we can't be excused.


And what if it's you whose clueless and not me? We can go on like this forever. Or until PiS will go even further.


Yes, yes, and they will help Russia to become yokels of the West.


You mean like Poland demanding interventions from the EU in Russia's internal affairs? lol Or when Poles wnated interventions form the West during commie times? Those traitors! lol

We're the EU, Ironside. We are a member of the EU. They can intervene in the way it's allowed by the EU law. You don't like it - make a referendum on leaving the EU.

And yes - I want them to intervene because I care about the future of Poland. Do you even live in Poland?



Haha, you are truly worth each other, you, Ironside, and you, jon357 :)
I'm sure Ironside is also convinced that in those latest posts I was just "a gobby and hormonal youngster who argues for the sake of it, making overlong posts with too much (usually inaccurate) information - and who always loses" :)

You people are so childish and petty...

This is something we should all be aware of.

The current regime have very few limits to their behaviour and little understanding or respect for people's rights.

OMG, I'm sorry Ironside, but that's a funny one, especially considering how PiS is placing their people absolutely everywhere, instead of professionals lol


I used to think the same, but I'm not so sure of it at all anymore. It's already worse than with Orban in Hungary despite the fact that he had a much bigger support and big enough majority in the parliament to change the constitution. PiS didn't get enough votes to change the constitution so they're doing stuff they shouldn't be doing according to the law.


And in the minds of the EU and the US, it seems :)


I'm looking at Russia, Poland and other countries, at history, the present day and facts. And?


Then you clearly weren't in Poland at that time. I was.


Yes, everyone is wrong and only you are correct? Eh? What is this comment? Majority of Poles don't understand politics, the West, I'm often misinformed (about what?), most Poles feel more than think, etc. - what is this bullsh1t? And you're supposed to be the patriotic Pole? lol

Ironside, am I right in thinking that you don't live in Poland?


I wish I could, but I don't have the time to do that right now (that's why I'm sitting at this late hour like an idiot to finish this and have it off my head). As I wrote there's lots to write about. Maybe one day. But I think the comparisons between pro-Putin Russians' comments and the comments that I found here are valid and important because PiS government is showing signs of non-democratic Putin-like mentality. My post was a warning where it can lead.


I would like to see that interview too but judging by what PiS is doing I wouldn't be sursprised if that was true.

Ironside, all I'm saying is - it's better to "dmuchać na zimne" than "na gorące", and it's getting too warm in Poland already...


"Łubu dubu, łubudubu, niech nam żyje Prezes naszego klubu, niech żyje nam." :D (that's a cult quote from a cult Polish comedy "Miś", for those who don't know :))

Here, I found a fragment about the civic society from that interview with Kaczyński:
wiadomosci.ngo.pl/wiadomosc/194234.html

I must say it doesn't make sense - he claims that in III RP the disident circles were against the activisation of the citizens and the way to fight this activisation was to create... a civic society lol

And what he's saying later on is:

"The idea of the civic society was 'serving' not only those fears but first of all the political interests of the disident groups which were coming - whether purely in the biographic sense or in the sense of the social environment - from real socialism. They wanted to have some kind of political vehicle, because they never managed to build a strong party. The structures of the civic society, set against the politics and the state, have become such vehicle. That civic society was supposed to be a construct completely deprived of content, based solely on the system of authorities whose views on the state were burdened with their experiences of the repression used against them by the communist state. It led to the conviction that any repressive powers of the state are evil in itself."

What a load of gibberish o_O

I'm completely convinced that when he didn't know what else to say Wałęsa would just spout a lot of nonsense secure in the knowledge that no one would ask what (if anything) it was supposed to mean.

When you get down to it JK tends to follow the same strategy except that his nonsense sounds vaguely like it means something that only the highly erudite can truly follow so people are intimidated to ask what it's supposed to mean.

All that a person needs to know now is that JK wants rule of party and not rule of law and he absolutely hates about half the population of the country.

If said foreigner is an EU citizen, no, not a chance.

When a foreigner, best not to get involved! ;)

So what are you talking about then? You are mocking people who claim that it matters who owns what, asking questions, learning about facts or talk turkey?


Well, they are protesting against PiS winning democratic election hence immediately after that fact KODs sprigged out. Banners with slogans change in time from protesting against government not displaying the EU flags on one occasion to all issues that pertains to Tribunal, in meantime all acts and bills that government introduced to defence of Lech Walesa even though government has nothing to do with the new documents that came to light.

To sum it all any and each pretext is good to attack the government for the one reason only - them being PiS.
So, will you came clean and admit that or you are going to lie about your reasons for your stance? Remember that I have your posts above and I can expose any lies in no time at all.


See that probably because I have never pictured you as being stupid. Head strong - yes, stubborn - sure, leftie - often, stupid - nah such a thought has never crossed my mind until now.


Not exactly the same surely. For one they must been expressed in different languages. Seriously though don't you kids learn nothing nowadays? How about contexts, additional circumstances and reality on the ground.

You mean to say that you take words and compare them with words. Are you for real? Are you sure that logic and logo are not the same in your mind?

Do I really need to humiliate you further by proving to you that what you say here is just a pure nonsense? Do you want me to?


Yes millions of people in different cultures and countries with different values and languages, of different gender, age, education, experiences and abilities are all the same mentality. Why? Cause you say so. Aren't you striving to be modest you genius you?

What was your population sample and what methods did you employ while conducting your research?


So what? What wrong with that? Do you think that judge should be above the law?


Is that suppose to be some kind of an argument? If so you have failed. How the fact that weakness and conflicts inside of the same country might and are being exploit for the benefit of other parties pertain to your remark?

Are you saying that is not true?


Until you learn the difference between logic and a logo you wont be able to do that.


Don't be dumber than you have to be. If you don't see difference I won't help you.


Opposition has a certain rights and duties if they fail to fulfil those they are not longer acting as an opposition by as so called opposition for the lack of a better expression.


Sure, a big benevolent state that is like a big brother or a sister to you and were only saints and angels are working and worrying night and day in what way to help poor Poland. Sure plenty of laws that says it is not their business.

You have no clue do you? gees.

I wonder how pro-family PiS can claim to be now the dud Duda's marriage has broken down. I saw him today and he looked very wistful indeed.

Apparently his wife moved out of the family home at the weekend....

A lot of the gossip is that Marta Kaczyńska is the 'third person in the marriage', however other names are being mentioned by people who claim to know.

Ah, pro-family PiS, with Marta Kaczyńska. Two husbands and two divorces, such a...family woman.

Please



tell me more

I only know bits and pieces - I was pretending not to be interested.

What people are saying is that the Duda marriage has broken up because he has been allegedly philandering. Some people are suggesting it's Marta Kaczyńska (mostly on the basis of existing gossip and some photographs of them together), others say it is a different woman (or women). Mrs Duda, the First Lady allegedly moved out of the marital home at the weekend and back in to (I think) her father's house or former house.

So much for 'pro-family' policies and Catholic values!

Is that the same first lady noticeable only by the empty chair next to that cat Duda in the Wawel on Sunday?

Wouldn't be a huge surprise. Kinga Duda has been mocked and ridiculed for her father's actions at the university, and Mrs Duda has come under a massive amount of pressure for blindly sticking to her husband's views even though she knows it's obvious nonsense. People were appealing to her to save the compromise, and she might well simply have had enough of it.

Can't say I'd blame her. Watching your husband do exactly as he's told must be pretty humiliating for the First Lady of any country.

Plus of course the alleged adultery.


That's when people 'not in the know' started asking and those 'in the know' started telling. Allegedly.

Those pictures are very interesting. The only problem is that it gets slightly creepy when you consider that Duda was openly referring to Kaczyński as his father.


Another swipe at her today. It turns out that Danuta Wałęsa, Anna Komorowska and Jolanta Kwaśniewska have all came out in favour of the current law, writing a joint letter in support of it. The silence of Agata Duda (and complete withdrawal from public life) is very telling, isn't it?

It also transpired that the director of the Institute of Books was fired (again for not being a member of the Party) - and Duda's father-in-law signed a letter of protest against the decision. The pressure is building up.

What if said foreigner speaks dysfunctional, halting pidgin Polish like a swarthy wog might? That's surely grounds for deportaion innit? And good riddance!!!!

Whoosh! What a bunch of gossiping washerwomen I spy with my eye on this beautiful afternoon? My aren't you a little busy bodies - hey I got an idea for you start your own Louella Parson's gossip column? Call it JMHD's hot news page and there you go.

:)

EU citizens pretty much cannot be deported from Poland, temporarily removed perhaps but in those cases Poland needs to keep on proving the clear and present danger such EU citizen poses to Poland. So we can say what we like about Poland's political scene after this election and after every election. However, Americans, such as you, can be deported for any reason, or even for no reason at all, probably particularly if it became known after the next election that they were just as slavish in their defence of the 18%-regime as they were of the regime of the other Party that attracted support of a similar percentage of Poles, i.e. the PZPR. Perhaps a name springs to mind?

More to the point, it's pretty much impossible to deport them effectively. They can just return to the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Lithuania, Sweden or Germany and reenter Poland without a check.

Non-EU citizens on the other hand can easily be banned from the entire Schengen area.

Haha, that's exactly my impression of that fragment about the civic society ;)
Ironside, and what's your take on what Kaczyński said?


Exactly.


I hope that's not true, but who knows... I've been naive enough before already... :/


I'm criticising people who are convinced that if someone is criticising their beloved leader or party they can be doing that only because they are payed to do that by "wraże siły" (foreign enemies). This is the narrow-minded conviction of pro-Putin Russian nationalists and looks like it is also your and Polonius3' conviction. They simply can't comprehend that criticism of Putin and Russia can be valid. Everyone who criticises Putin or Russia is a traitor or an enemy, no matter whether it's ordinary citizens, opposition, the media, Poland or the West. Such attitude makes any discussion impossible because it makes the other side not an equal partner for such discussion.

First, I'd like you to prove that 80% of Polish press is owned by Alex Springer.
Secondly, I'd like you to tell me who was "bankrolling" TVN.

Thirdly, I'd like to say that even Agnieszka Holland criticised TVN saying they weren't entirely objective (and she said that during an interview on that station, you should see the anchor's face lol - oh, but you probably don't watch TVN or TVN24, do you? ;)). My parents at some point switched from TVN's "Fakty" to TVP1's "Wiadomości". I myself noticed somewhere around the second term of PO in power that "Wiadomości" on TVP1 has become surprisingly objective and neutral (something unheard of before, since every new government was taking over TVP pretty shamelessly, as far as I remember). That's why I was absolutely baffled by the savage agression of the elderly people when they attacked that poor TVP journalist: youtube.com/watch?v=Spa5CBzB_4I

Such "civilised" people will be setting the tone in my country now?

The fact that some TV station or a newspaper may be to some extent not objective or biased doesn't have to stem from any foreign "bankrolling" but simply from the political views of the station or newspaper - this is how it is in many democracies. Let's take CNN and Fox News, for example. Am I correct?


LOL
No, they're protesting against PiS breaking the law and constitution. The reason why KOD came into being was the Constitutional Tribunal crisis. The parliament voted for the new legislation about the CT on the 19th of November 2015. The same day a group called KOD was set up on Facebook. The first public meeting of supporters of KOD took place on 26 of November in some theater (just 200 people). On 26 of November KOD wrote an open letter to the president of Poland urging him to take the oath from the judges elected to the Constitutional Tribunal. The first manifestation in defence of the CT organised by KOD took place on the 3rd of December.

On the 19th of December the demonstrations took place in 23 cities in Poland and in front of Polish embassies and consulates abroad.


And what's wrong with that?


I don't know whether it's because I'm tired and sleepy today or because you're not making sense but I don't understand this sentence. Could you elaborate? What does it have to do with KOD demonstrations?


No, Ironside. Both PiS and PO and their supporters were attacking each other for everything and nothing, but this is different this time. No government before went as far as PiS is going.


What? lol What on Earth are you talking about? I don't like PiS, I'd rather they didn't win, obviously, but I never contested the fact that they've won a fair democratic election (unlike PiS that claimed that previous elections when they lost were rigged! lol). That's not the problem, the problem is what they started doing after they won with the CT and not only CT. I didn't have a good opinion about PiS but, honestly, it didn't cross my mind that they were going to do the stuff they're doing now. Especially that during the campaign they were posing as modern and more friendly and professional and talking about "good change" and all that bullsh1t with smiling president showing of his pretty daughter. They've only shown their true faces after the election during nighttime parliamentary sessions...


:)
As I wrote before - arguments, Ironside, arguments and not insults :)


Me - a leftie? That's a good one :D You're not even able to tell my political orientation lol Have you ever met a leftie who's a religious Catholic? I must say I haven't. Although I think there should be at least a bit of a socialist in every Christian :)

I'm a centrist - something between a liberal and a conservatist with a drop of socialist, I suppose. That's why I can be less "stupid" than people like you or jon357 who are fanatics of one political side. I can see both sides of the barricade so I would say I see more than the both of you can see individually.


I know, I know, I'm all wonderful and brilliant when I'm criticising others and my comments are hitting nails on the heads one after another but when I start criticising you or what you like (no matter whether it's you or jon357 or anyone else who can't seem to discuss like an adult) I'm suddenly "stupid", "hormonal" and my "overlong" comments are "mindless drivel" :)))

Now, could we all focus on the subject matter instead of my intelligence or lack of it, my hormones, the length of my posts (if you don't like reading, go and watch a film, nobody forces you to read it ^_^'), etc. :*


Ironside, be serious, please. I was talking about the content and I think you're intelligent enough to know that.
Your comment is an example why discussing on this forum can be such a waste of time. Instead of using some serious arguments you're wasting my time by writing stuff like this and I have to respond to such childish play.

Btw, we "kids" were learning Russian at school so I was not only able to realise that those Russians were using a different language but I was also able to read it and discuss with them in their own language (poorly, but still... ;)).


What about them? :) Tell me about them. You surely must know much about it? :)
The context was, for example: supporters of the government calling the opposition/media/protesters traitors payed by foreign forces because they were criticising the government.

Any normal person in a normal democracy recognises the right of the opposition/media/protesters to criticise the government without them being called traitors payed by foreign forces.


I'm comparing attitudes, mentality, Ironside. Those "words" express those attitudes, mentality.
For example, Putin's actions during the Ukraine crisis were comapred to the actions of Hitler, the state of mind of the Russian society was compared to the state of mind of German society in the 30's. Does that mean Putin is Hitler and Russians are Nazis? Of course not, but there are disturbing similarities, patterns, attitudes, etc. At some point after the annexation of Crimea even some Russian state backed newspaper published an article defending the actions of Hitler concerning Gdańsk bascially justifying the attack on Poland. Who could imagine such a thing considering how much Russians hate the Nazis? But at some point such schizophrenia is possible.

Just like with PiS supporters or simply right-wingers hating on Putin and Russia but acting like Putin supporters themselves.
The same with Polish government...
Of course, Putin and Russians were greatly offended when they were compared to 1930's Germany :)
PiS and some or many Poles, I don't know (including some liberal journalists on TVN as far as I've noticed lol) were also offended when PiS was accused of "putinisation" of Poland :)


You can try, but use real arguments for that and some real info and not insults, please :)


That's not what I wrote you demagogue you :) I've compared the mentality and attitudes displayed by you and Polonius3 in your comments to the mentality and attitudes of pro-Putin Russian nationalists.

I understand that you feel butt hurt by being compared to pro-Putin Russian nationalists :) But I have a felling that your reaction would be different if I compared your comments to that of pro-Orban Hunagrian nationalists :) Am I right?


I'm not some polling or research institution, Ironside :) I'm an ordinary forum user who has a right to make observations and comments and can draw conclusions based on those observations. You don't have to agree with them, I know you most probably won't :)


No, a judge shouldn't be above the law just like the president and the government shouldn't be above the law. The CT didn't brake the law. The president did by not taking an oath from the elected judges. He broke the constitution and he will face the State Tribunal after PiS will lose power.

You know, what baffles me and people I know is that PiS is behaving like there's going to be nothing after them, like there're going to be in power forever o_O

Don't they understand that the changes they make can be used against them by the party that will come to power after them? That the power they give to the state may be later on used by a party far dangerous then them? They seem to be extremely short-sighted.


Let's take a different example then if you don't get what I'm trying to say. The EU imposed sanctions on Russia (although Russia isn't even a member of the EU) for breaking the international law and the treaties Russia signed (annexation of Crimea). The EU can impose some sort of sanctions for the breaking of the Polish law and acting against the Polish constitution by the Polish government since such actions are apparently breaking the EU law and the treaties Poland signed.


So, by your logic the government has also certain rights and duties and if they fail to fulfil those (like acting according to the law and the Constituton of the country) they are no longer acting as a government but as "so called government", for the lack of a better expression? :)

You see, I'm not that stupid, am I? :D That's a double-edged sword ;)


Ironside, you don't know my opinion on the EU so don't pretend that you do. There's one thing that the West does good for sure though and knows lots about and that's democracy. They're far more experinced than we are in that department.


Oh, I don't know about that. I've heard other opinions.
And anyway, are you saying that noone can criticise any country for anything because it's not their business? Russia can't be criticized for being undemocratic, Saudi Arabia for not letting women drive cars or North Korea for keeping political prisoners in concentration camps? China for harvesting organs from Falun Gong followers kept in prisons (since they have healthy bodies everyone wants their organs, sic!)? Why can't Iran have a nuke? It's their business what they're doing in their own country, right?

You will tell me now - but they don't have democratically elected governments.
OK, but PiS wasn't elected for what it's doing now either. Every government in Poland is supposed to act according to the Constitution of Poland even if they don't like it. PiS could change the Constitution if they got enough votes but they didn't and hence they don't have the mandate to do anything against the Constitution.


Well, you would have to prove that. Feel free to do that, I learn all my life :)

Paulina, if you could find the time, it would be really, really appreciated by me and others if you could post more examples of the similarities in language between United Russia supporters and PiS supporters. It was really fascinating to read how the language used by Polonius and Ironside was almost identical to the language used by Putin lovers - I know a little bit of it, but the background of the KODerast stuff was fantastic to read.

I appreciate your posts, by the way. It's about time we had some sanity from a Polish person living in Poland on here :)

I have no idea what he said. I don't think that overtly matters.


Glad you told me and we have cleared that misunderstanding. Because I was certain that you talking some bull. Is your critique pertain also to the people who every phrase of concern for the Polish national interest, talk about problems that need to be addressed, or about need for defence of Poland's interests and values see as a proof that they are Putin's incarnate, nationalists and whatnot? They must be being convicted that the doom is approaching?


You are obsessed. We are talking about Poland.
All the rest of that chit chat I just skipped. Has somebody hacked Paulina's account?
There were some rare BS in this claptrap.


No, they are not.


That was a compliment.


You are comparing nothing! Without proper research technique and methodology you are comparing hot air and then you are adding some hot air of your own.


What the hell? That is an internal Polish affair and sanctions on Russia were introduced for the annexation of Crimea if I recall correctly.


What? Such constitutional struggles are nothing unusual, usually there is some consensus between all forces not to make a drama out of it with many participants in the interest if the state.


Jesus wept.


What? Nah, I pass, you write all you want, just don't mention my moniker.

So what about the alleged dysfunction of Duda's own lifestyle?

And the 'Catholic values' inherent in adultery and marriage breaking...

One rule for us, another rule for them.

Don't forget the criminal activities of Marta Kaczyńska's second husband and former close ally of PiS.

I suspect they're partly terrified of an exposé of their misdeeds outside Poland and partly hoping for it. Their (allegedly Putin-funded) PR machine is doubtless (poorly) prepared.

Basically it would present everything in a neutral yet damning way free from the confusion and PiSite manipulation within Poland and at the same time give them a chance to say that all their misfortunes are a foreign plot.

A few Radio Maryja listeners and football hooligans may actually believe them.

Pray tell whom do you have in mind. You've been hinting all along that you're onto some big Soviet spy. Maybe it's one of those who sold the atomic secret to Moscow. But they all had names like Sobol, Glass, Rosenberg, which once again calls to mind the question you refuse to answer: R U 1 2?

Perhaps he has in mind some politician like Duda who trumpets about Catholic values and allegedly does not consider that they extend to his own sex life.

An interesting take on the PiS scandal at the national stables:



bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-12/the-rolling-stones-and-two-dead-horses-expose-poland-s-new-elite

Another day, another "interesting" bash at the government. Meanwhile the PO baron up in Warmia has created "hot springs" there drowning 100 million złots of public including EU funds. The ultra-modern hydro-therapy facility was laucnehd with fanfare and pomp except there is one small snag. The "thermal" springs are none too thermal and the water has to be artifically heated at considerbale cost so the cure-takers don't freeze to death. You must've missed yet another failed PO project.


And that occurred the day after the former stud director was replaced. Now who would have a motive to slip toxic ingredietns into the feed -- the new director or the old one, resentful of getting the sack?

I would presume you've all seen one of the most awkward handshakes in Polish history?

twitter.com/Exen/status/719976966108094464

----Hello boss, I'm boning your niece, we're still cool though yea?
----errrr....

Why do you bother trying to tell such massive whoppers here? Firstly, her horses did not die on the same day. Secondly, Trela, Bialobok and Stojanowska were purged on 19 February. Preria was put down on 17 March. Amra died on 2 April.


One would really have to ask firstly why you're lying about the dates of the deaths. One would then have to ask why you're lying about the causes of the deaths. Preria was put down after suffering a twisted intestine. Amra's death was the result of a twisted large colon, caused, according to people who know what they are talking about (i.e. not the PIS lovers appointed to the positions) by transporting her by road to Warsaw two days before she gave birth and then transporting her back three days after that, a move which the owner of the horse to say "They should never have put her on the road so soon. It was completely amateurish".


No, not some big Soviet spy, just a pathetic draft-dodger who sold out both his own country and the country which gave him shelter. I'd link to some of his pieces about Poland's post-election political scene but it seems as though nobody wants to publish his work any more, perhaps the word about his habit of making up stories has spread too far now?