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Poland's post-election political scene


Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,601
That is not the essence of democracy and the fact that you would think so is very revealing because it demonstrates how many people in the former Eastern Bloc don't understand the fundamental principles of the democratic system of government.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,602
then we have simply a different understanding of what democracy is and let's just leave it at that - I believe democracy is the rule of people and their will should be the law and I will always vote accordingly - you can lecture me on what democracy should be but I will not change my mind
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,603
"total opposition"

You don't even listen to your own leaders. It was Schetyna who said: "Jesteśmy totalną opozycją!" It was also he who said they would get back into power "ulicą i zarganicą", repeatedly raising a costly (in terms of added taxpayer-funded police protection) rumpus on the streets and snitching to foreign governments, Brussels and international media. And that they indeed have done! But they will never return to power!
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,604
@ Gumishu, Democracy is not the rule of the people, but rather the right of the people to participate in government and have a say in how the country is ruled and most importantly that the government should be accountable to the people. It is underpinned by an ideal of transparency and accountabliity which extends to the law making process bearing in mind that government is not just about legislation.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,605
when a legal case can be made

Those clever SOBs have had a quarter-century to destroy the evidence. Since SBs and TWs were listed in different archives, Jaruzelski and Kiszczak were unable to incinerate all the proof in 1989-90 at the Konstancin papermill. So evidence could still be pieced together in many cases but it woudl be a most tedious and time-consuming task.Many of the villans are up in age, so except in extreme cases like killing a Żołnierrz Wyklęty or other national hero, probbaly these people will never be brought to justice. But at least they shouldn't be allowed to pollute the judiciary following their PRL-era verdicts against freedom-fighters.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,606
@ Gumishu, Democracy is not the rule of the people, but rather the right of the people to participate in government and have a say in how the country is ruled

as I said our definitions of democracy differ and just leave it a that - I guess you are affraid of the rule of people so be it - and I have my (spiritual) reasons to believe it is the most adequate form of government to the current state of consciousness of the humankind
mafketis 24 | 9,361
21 Jul 2017 #3,607
your own leaders. It was Schetyna

He is not a leader of mine, the world and politics are more complex than your simple minded "PiS and me against the world" approach.

snitching to foreign governments

"snitching"?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,608
glorification of the previous system

More antics with semantics?! It is meant as a pure desciptive of a period that has ostensibly severed ties with communism but in fact in many afreas, especially personnelwise, is its continuation. III RP is a euphemism that attempts to conceal that reality.
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,609
I guess you are affraid of the rule of people so be it

Not in the least. Do bear in mind that I come from a country far more democratic than yours where since the very foundation of our state, almost a hundred years ago, anything requiring an amendment to our constitution requires the endorsement of the people by referendum and I am absolutely in favour of that. We also have the Citizens's Assembly now, which is consulted regarding legislation and policy. However both those aspects are very well organised and properly administrated. What's happening in Poland is a haphazard shambles based on whatever the mood of the moment is and that is not an effective long term strategy for ensuring meaningful particpation in government by the Polish people.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,610
What's happening in Poland is a haphazard shambles based on whatever the mood of the moment is and that is not an effective long term strategy for ensuring meaningful particpation in government by the Polish people.

I don't believe in meaningful participation of the people in goverment unless the law is what people want it to be - you don't trust people choices - I can understand it to an extent - but it is important for the growth of humanity to learn even if only by mistakes
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,611
Mr Michnik

Wonder if HB has sobered up sufficiently by now following his "pro-democracy" (ROFL) effort last night. PFers one and all are dying to hear his detailed report on the rumpus. A lot of good it did the rumpus-raisers.

On 20th July 2017, post-communism aka III RP died. True freedom and democracy have prevailed!
cms 9 | 1,271
21 Jul 2017 #3,612
I have no idea where you get your figures from regarding akcyza rising 20 percent in gas sales. Last info I saw (in June in the kosher gazette) said gas sales were up 13 percent and akcyza from gas sales up 5 percent. Both figures are believable and mainly due to increased economic output.

The tax dodging thing is one of the founding myths of PIS but Poland's poor tax compliance did not start in 2005 and it did not stop in September 2015. It is deeply ingrained in society - the result of an anti authoritarian streak, punitive taxes seems as unfair, straightforward poverty, poor collection mechanisms and technology and yes some corrupt officials .

Many of the collection initiatives currently adding to the govt coffers were started under PO. And by the way I am not really a fan of PO's economic management either - they are simply the lesser of two evils and they don't deliberately try and wreck democracy or proclaim Jesus to be the King of Poland.
mafketis 24 | 9,361
21 Jul 2017 #3,613
Poland's poor tax compliance did not start in 2005 and it did not stop in September 2015. It is deeply ingrained in society - the result of

Also, very poor roll out and information in the beginning. I remember back in the early 90s happening on a meeting where they were trying to explain it and no one understood anything the presenter was saying. For years they just seemed to hope some people would pay something...

the first year I paid no one I knew knew anything about it and they all said there's no way they could help me and I spent hours with a dictionary trying to figure it out which wasn't easy because a lot of stuff I need wasn't in the dictionary...
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,614
I have no idea where you get your figures from regarding akcyza rising 20 percent in gas sales

I have corrected myself in a subsequent post - which you probably haven't read - gas sales more than 10 per cent more year to year is much more than the economic growth suggests - also the anti-fuel-fraud packet was not introduced until August 2016 so it had limited impact on the yearly growth of akcyza income and as I pointed to you the growth of demand for diesel in the late 2016 was above 20 per cent (24 to be exact for December year to year) - no economic upturn can explain this (and such a growth just didn't happen)

tax dodging and VAT fraud are two entirely different things - if you choose to believe there was no massive fraud during PO rule so be it - but how do you explain the 40 per cent growth of VAT income even if the income for the last's year Decmeber has been moved to this year?
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,615
you don't trust people choices

Gumi I don't think you understand. I just said that I AM in favour of participation in the law making process such as we have in my own country. But it must be informed choice, not the result of hysteria and it has to be very specific. People can't just be asked (and indeed they're not even asked in Poland) 'are you in favour of court reforms, education reforms' etc. That's far too vague. The details of the proposed changes have to be presented or debated and the yes and no arguments resulting must be presented over a period of months to the entire population for public debate. Here's an example of how it works in Ireland and in particular at the momet in relation to changing the present abortion law which is also an issue in Poland:

citizensassembly.ie/en/Home
citizensassembly.ie/en/The-Eighth-Amendment-of-the-Constitution

The conclusions reached by the Citizens' Assembly will then go before parliament for consideration after which they will be put to the public in referendum following a proper public debate on the issue.

Now that's how a modern democracy should work in terms of major reforms.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,616
relation to changing the present abortion law which is also an issue in Poland

are you in favour of abortion?

and I am all for public debate about all conceivable topics - if you think PiS is stifling the debate then I can tell you that not more if at all than PO did in their time
cms 9 | 1,271
21 Jul 2017 #3,617
If economic growth is 3 percent then there are many factors that can drive gas sales higher - increases of 3 percent in household income can often mean a increase of say 10 percent in your spare family money - discretionary income. This is often channeled into second cars, or upgrading to a bigger engine new car, or more leisure time driving. It is well known that while most of the 500 plus money has gone into clothes, English lessons etc a good amount has gone into the car industry.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,618
that doesn't explain the 24 per cent growth of diesel sales in december 2016 - and as I said the anti-fraud packet went into action only in August and the fraudsters initially reacted to it buy simple smuggling which government reacted to by imposing tighter controls of fuel transport - we'll see how it works out this year - i mam nadzieję że odszczekasz swój brak zaufania do skutków poczynań rządu jeśli okaże się że faktycznie działają
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,619
I get your point. What you're suggesting is that I favour that system because Ireland is a fairly liberal society where you suspect that my view will accord with that of the majority but that's not the issue Gumi. The issue is participation in government in a meaningful and considered manner by the people. The Citizens' Assembly is a fairly recent idea but we had many referendums in the past on issues that were very contentious in Irish society and sometimes the results were not to my liking but I accepted them because they were reached in a fair and transparent manner and they reflected the will of the majority of those who voted.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,620
@Atch

as I said I'm all for public debate and if the majority of Poles wanted to legalize abortion I would bear with it even if I'm strongly opposed to it and I would do all I can to prevent it - having said that I am very much in the opinion that real public debate is not possible without unbiased media - the media that just inform and are not bent on shaping public opinion - which is not the case around the world
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,621
unbiased media

Well firstly debate doesn't have to be only media based but in any case in Poland at the moment PIS has already begun to exercise control over the media therefore it could hardly be described as unbiased.

In very simple terms, on our national TV and radio stations in Ireland the representatives of both the yes and no campaigns would be interviewed regularly and allowed to place their arguments before the people, as the campaign progressed they would meet for face to face debate on television progammes with a studio audience of ordinary members of the public, there would be billboarding and public advertising campaigns from both sides, and of course lots of printed material would arrive through your door. You can't stop members of the media from commenting and doing editorials etc but usually they're just preaching to the converted because people who buy a certain newspaper or follow a particular broadcaster think that way already and simply want to hear their own views reinforced rather than being challenged to think differently.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,622
in Poland at the moment PIS has already begun to exercise control over the media therefore it could hardly be described as unbiased.

care to elaborate? - is TVN and Polsat banned - is Wyborcza closed? - aren't Interia, Onet and WP free to manipulate poeple to their liking?

you may not have experienced Interia moderation in action I have

or maybe you consider TVP in the times of PO as not a propaganda tube for the government
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,623
It is deeply ingrained in society

If so, how is it that Morawiecki claimed to have improved VAT enforcement at present which is roughly Equal to the amount that "disappeared" during the Tusk period? Asked how that was possible, he poignantly replied: "It suffices not to steal (Wysrarczy nie kraść!)".
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,624
Gumi I'm beginning to wonder, I really am, can you be such an innocent?? It starts with state owned media and it reaches out gradually so that controls are imposed on others and eventually you'll one state sanctioned sation and somebody reading the news in an army uniform like my husband recalls from his childhood.

I remember Polish television from ten or eleven years ago and I never saw a single intelligent political discussion of any kind by anyone, of any party.
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,625
it reaches out gradually so that controls are imposed on others

I don't see a slightest hint of PiS controlling the private media - I can image the outcry if the TVN broadcast concession would be removed - I understand you are wary but I can't see anything happening to the private media in the foreseeable future - you are free to go to your newsagent and buy Gazeta Wyborcza - that their sales are dwindling is not an effect of any attack on private media simple as that

you probably heard the phrase: you can fool everyone for a time, you can fool some people all the time but you cannot fool all people all the time - the effects of this truth in action are seen unraveling before our eyes

also PO was in bed with private media and they have paid for their support from our wallets - you may not remember it but I do
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,626
It starts with state owned media

for the moment I see the state owned media as a good counterbalance to the mainstream private media - to be honest I don't watch television that much and I have entirely given up on watching Polsat (I almost never watched TVN I just heard about their eternal anti-PiS bias) - you know when the PO ruled Poland was one of those few countries were all media were criticizing ... the oppostion (i.e. PiS)
Sparks11 - | 335
21 Jul 2017 #3,627
pis wont have to take over thehe private media. its a well known fact that public companies dont advertise on media unfriendly to the regime. as companies become forced to seek favor with the govt. the private media will start to disappear for lack of income and regime supporters will say it was because they were mismanaged .
gumishu 11 | 5,603
21 Jul 2017 #3,628
should private media live off government subsidies even in a veiled form - I don't think so - let them earn what they can on a free market - have you ever considered that the demand for the likes of Gazeta Wyborcza is simply dwindling
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
21 Jul 2017 #3,629
not the result of hysteria

I'm glad you do not approve of all the hysterical ballyhoo the "total opposition" is serving up and claiming that shoutng, insulting, pushing, shoving and sabotaging the parliamnetrary process, etc. is "democracy".

On another score, over the ages where there any ethnic Irish (not Ulster Scots-Irish) who actually supported the British side of the age-old conflict? Did any do it as a heart-felt conviction or did it serve their personal interests?

We have a similar situation in Poland. After six years of German occupation and 45 years of Soviet domination via PRL proxy, like those much-reviled pro-British Irish Poland too has its faction that curry favour with foreign interest groups and look to Berlin, Brussels and Paris for guidance and snitchery. Then there is to pro-Polish government which promotes Polish interests first, last and always -- an attitude all but identical to that of the patriotic Free Irish towards their homeland. Which side are you on, Atch?
Atch 17 | 3,427
21 Jul 2017 #3,630
much-reviled pro-British Irish

Not sure to whom you're referring there Polly or at what period in history.

demand for the likes of Gazeta Wyborcza is simply dwindling

Well they had a big slide in their sales about ten years ago and came back up again so I wouldn't see it as a major change in Polish public opinion. It'll swing back again time.

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