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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


cms neuf - | 1,134
1 Jan 2020 #91
" A project that doesn't benefit Poland"

Since 2004 Poland is richer, safer, more investment, lower inflation, lower unemployment, longer life expectancy, less inequality, rising health standards, less smoking, less drinking, better roads, town centers that look totally different, money in the countryside for the first time where many people now have their first cars and computers,

Apart from church attendance can you name one measurable thing that has gone backwards in Poland since 2004 ?
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #92
because that's the general direction in which we're heading at the moment.

That is not a fact but your opinion. Are you sure it derive from your rational side or is it just a partisan political bickering? Anyhoo, the devil is in the details. What, how, when and with whom. Creating aim of a diplomacy depending on pollical likes and dislike or on a whim or even worse - to kick your political opponent is just whimsical folly. I really dislike it.

No.

Well, at the very least you echoes here rhetorical hyperboles and whishy whooshy emotional BS overrepresented in Poland in political talk. Just cut it off. It is emotional nonsense. Silly claims aimed to justify emotional outrage and reactions. Snap out of it.

blatant disregard to Polish Constitution

BS, it goes both ways, everyone do not give a s/////t about constitution is just a tool to hit your political enemy with. Don't be silly, why are you repeating that tripe?

END of Part 1.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #93
...maybe interesting for this thread....

The first new year baby was born in Frankfurt...at 0.02. a little Jakub....son of polish parents Michal and Izabella...
He is in the running for Germany's fastest baby! :)

bild.de/regional/frankfurt/frankfurt-aktuell/frankfurt-geboren-um-0-02-uhr-herzlich-willkommen-kleiner-jakub-67028874.bild.html

The reality of the EU flies full in the face of all these quite theoretical visions....

Happy Birthday! :)

PS: Iron, the parents want to build a house there....I'm sure little Jakub will grow up fully appreciating what Germany has to offer! ;)
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #94
German is the second most widely learnt foreign language at Polish schools

Dude, money, work, all economically viable issues. Put on the top some awareness of historical ties and vole. It doesn't mean that German culture is interesting to Polish people.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #95
Do you really think you can speak for all of them?
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #96
m sure little Jakub will grow up fully appreciating what Germany has to offer! ;)

That is different dude. We are not talking about immigration or assimilation but about attractiveness of the German culture to an average Polish person.

Do you really think you can speak for all of them?@ Bratwurst Boy

I can speak for the majority of Polish people.
My mother was fluent in German and tried to teach me some when I was a kid. I can order a beer, ask where is a toiled get a gist of a simple sentence in German. That about it. As for the German culture. It wasn't really interesting to me and it isn't for the majority of the Polish people/
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #97
....and that average polish person is you! :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #98
We are not talking about immigration or assimilation but about attractiveness of the German culture to an average Polish person.

Maybe a question of definition....people decide with their feet, they always have...and in that regard the direction of Poles is clear....it doesn't have to be about beer or Beethoven...they have come for centuries, still come, settle, learn German, work and live here...immigrate/assimilate...give birth to a new generation of GerPoles... or only stay for awhile...

I don't know exactly what you actually mean...so, be a grump! :)
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #99
money in the countryside for the first time where many people now have their first cars and computers

Quite correct. We can very well observe this, both on the roads and on Internet fora.

@Ironside: it is highly unlikely that we will ever agree on most political matters. People can simply observe what's going on in Poland, and draw their own conclusions (depending on the level of their education, upbringing, and common sense), so I don't want to dwell on these topics too much.

The question of culture, however, is an extremely interesting one, and I think the misunderstanding here stems from the nature of culture itself, as well as from the definition of the term.

We have to remember that Poland, in terms of culture, is probably the most fascinating country in the world. Being a unique combination of Latin civilization with strong Slavic elements (with dominance of the former), having assimilated and creatively developed elements of multitudinous cultures and traditions (as varied as Swedish, Dutch, Tatar, Jewish, Scottish, German, Lithuanian and many others), Polish culture is extremely rich and awe-inspiring. It is, therefore, obviously, hardly possible for anyone who really understood it and made a deep study of it, to be interested in, or inspired by, culture of any other country. In this, I believe, we can agree.

We must not, however, forget that culture is not only the most fascinating poetry of the 20th century (in the opinion of Иосиф Бродский, for example), one of the most beautiful and most difficult languages in the world (mowa polska, "groźniejsza niż burza, i od słowików miększa"), or the purest form of Catholicism (untouched by the neo-marxist, liberal nonsense flowing in streams from Vatican these days). These elements, although undoubtedly vital, do not exhaust the definition of culture.

Culture also has its material aspect (things like technology, economy, infrastructure etc.) and in this regard, I think, German culture has a lot to offer; this part of material culture is quite attractive to Poles (look at Poznań, and Wielkopolska in general, for example - Prussian influences there were very positive in some aspects and they strengthened and enriched our culture).
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #100
Culture also has its material aspect

Yeah, I'm not talking about THAT aspect. Its the other parts. As someone pointed out Germany have no soft power to go with their economical influence and that is a problem, a big F problem. Seems like Germans on PF do not get it!

Prussian influences there were very positive

I wouldn't go that far.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #101
As someone pointed out Germany have no soft power to go with their economical influence and that is a problem, a big F problem.

I'm sure that if Germany would have any more soft power alot of Poles on PF would complain about a "take over"....

The same way parents all over Europe complain about their kids preferring english language, english songs, english movies, english fashion...at the same time "forgetting" or purposely ignoring about old national traditions etc....:)

Just imagine the polish/german teenagers running around in Nike's, with the jeans hanging down to the knees, listening to that black rapper, speaking some kind of ghetto-slang and believing themselves to be sooo cool...

Is that this "soft power" you mean?

Thing is the Brits don't have their culture and their language for their own anymore...in every country it gets bastardized and mixed and changes....
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #102
alot of Poles on PF would complain

Poles? Complain? Never! :D

Cultures like the german and also the polish one have it easier....they can stay more itself that way...for traditionalists it's a blessing!

It is a blessing for non-traditionalists as well, but they don't always realise it. ;)

By the way, what I wrote before was not intended to denigrate German literature, language or religious background. You have your own, very valuable, accomplishments in these matters. I was merely pointing out that these aspects of German culture are unlikely to attract Poles (as opposed to your rich, and admirable, material culture).
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #103
I'm sure that if Germany would have any more soft power alot of Poles on PF would complain about a "take over"..

Maybe they would. However it is a totally different aspect. I might not be happy about outcome but at the same I would acknowledge it for what it is. That would be an entirely different talk.

Not being able to match economical prowess with an with appriopate cultural influence is a big problem. For everyone involved.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #104
I was merely pointing out that these aspects of German culture are unlikely to attract Poles

So...no Beethoven or Wagner fans in Poland? No Goethe? Kant? etc. :)
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #105
So...no Beethoven or Wagner fans in Poland? :)

Quite a few fans of Beethoven. I'd be more careful with Wagner's music though (people get strange urges after listening to it). :)

No Goethe? Kant?

No, sorry. We are too Catholic to get crazy about either Goethe or Kant.
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #106
So...no Beethoven or Wagner fans in Poland? :)

Soft power is the ability to shape the preferences of others through appeal and attraction.

Hardly B or W can attract a lot of people.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #107
Not being able to match economical prowess with an with appriopate cultural influence is a big problem. For everyone involved.

Why now?

It seems Poland does alot to keep it that way purposely...the WWII is never far from the polish mind...the Pole of today must be always stay alert...against an over mighty Germany and the big russian bear, isn't that so Iron?

Where should the sympathy or interest come from with such a mindset?

PS: I bet I was the first German you ever had a long(er) standing contact and talks with...usually your knowledge of Germany comes from history teachings, am I right?
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #108
Sorry for answering these for Iron...

the WWII is never far from the polish mind

How could it be? There are still so many people alive today who remeber the horrors of it - our grandmothers and grandfathers. We love our Babcias and Dziadeks, you know.

the Pole of today must be always stay alert...against an over mighty Germany and the big russian bear

Things have changed, as I mentioned before. This might be true 20-30 years ago, but not anymore.
Tacitus 2 | 927
1 Jan 2020 #109
As someone pointed out Germany have no soft power

This is just a claim that has been refuted numerous times already. Germany has in fact a lot of soft power by any indication.

softpower30.com/country/germany/

Cultural soft power is more than just who has the most netflix series. Otherwise no country except the USA and maybe the UK would have any. It includes the numer of people who learn a language, listen ro music and read literature. And in that regard Germqny has a lot to offer.
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #110
Why now?

Because if you want to influence a country to be amendable for your economical or political interest you better have something that would persuade them rather than rely on purely economical or monetary forces. Even if you get what you not in a short run it will create resentment and a lot of backslash in the long run. What's good about it?

against an over mighty Germany and the big russian bear, isn't that so Iron?

Well, overbearing powerful neighbor could a constitute a danger. That is given. However most of that political jabbering in Poland is a hyperbole. It doesn't reflect reality of a Polish mindset that well. Beside me lots of people have very down to the Earth practical approach to issues.

the sympathy or interest

Don't blame others for your culture with low appeal. lol
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #111
softpower30.com/country/germany/

softpower30.com/?country_years=2019

Poland 23rd? And the French (whom we had to civilise by teaching them how to eat with knife and fork) in the 1st position?

I don't think I like this ranking very much. Find another one, more accurate, please.
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #112
Iron must pay for my beer..

Sure, I can give you beer money all the time and then go around and ask for a lot of 'favors' hence I'm paying for your beer. (your take on EU, founds, Poland)

Germany has in fact a lot of soft power by any indication.

Not only Netflix series but a lot political values. German political values are rather insular and those which are not, consist of the progressive neo-Marxist BS that do more harm than good in Poland- German relations.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #113
softpower30.com/?country_years=2019

Germany Overall Ranking 03

!!!

Heh:)

Take that!!! :)

The world loves us....

*goes looking for the "Most popular country" study again...which Germany WON actually, heh:)*
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #114
:)

Well, as long as Germany concentrates on improving their soft power, and forgets about the "hard" power, I suppose I can live with that.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,139
1 Jan 2020 #115
Well, as long as Germany concentrates on improving their soft power, and forgets about the "hard" power,

*shakes hands on that*

Who needs the Bundeswehr...more singer and designer and movie makers are needed...
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #116
Who needs the Bundeswehr...more singer and designer and movie makers are needed...

...and beer - don't forget beer.

One example of Germany's soft power influence over Poland, that even Iron would be hard-pressed to deny, is turning from "spirits strongly preferred" to "beer strongly preferred" country, in a relatively short period of 25 years...

Preferred beverage
Ironside 49 | 10,010
1 Jan 2020 #117
Germany's soft power influence over Poland, that even Iron would be hard-pressed to deny

Dude, there were hardly any beers worth mention. It is an exmaple of people given a choice - In 1500 Poland had 400 kinds of beer. After commies things just went back to normal. Not due to German influence.
Torq 26 | 2,434
1 Jan 2020 #118
It was a joke, Iron.

Your lack of sense of humour is suspiciously German. Did you say your mom spoke fluent Deutsch? Hmm...
Dougpol1 33 | 3,409
1 Jan 2020 #120
I'd be more careful with Wagner's music though

Wot? If you don't see musicality in Wagner then you are not a very avid music listener. A lot of pop hits are lifted directly from his compositions. And it's nonsensical to equate the music with the man.


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