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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
30 Dec 2019 #61
Wealth was created before 'socialist paradise' was even a thing.

Not the wealth in Germany...that was lost after WWII and in the GDR even longer...
Spike31 3 | 1,616
30 Dec 2019 #62
Yes, West Germany had a few decades of capitalism under the US influence. And a Marshall plan. Hence the economic difference between East and West
mafketis 23 | 8,373
30 Dec 2019 #63
How would you define the positives? Not gaining money from the EU in

See? You're so colonized by neoliberalism you can't think of social positives in terms that aren't related to money!

should a more protectionist, social movements get stronger, the EU will mirror that too...

No. The central organs have become alienated from the member sates... nothing made me more skeptical of the EU's long term chances than reading through a bunch of EU documents (related to a translation/editing gig) about proposed future development... it was all... nothing but buzzwords covering the fact that they have no idea what to do except for proposals for more bureaucracy. A healthy organization does not produce such documents.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
30 Dec 2019 #64
See? You're so colonized by neoliberalism you can't think of social positives in terms that aren't related to money!

That's why I'm asking you! :)
Spike31 3 | 1,616
30 Dec 2019 #65
you can't think of social positives in terms that aren't related to money

Money makes the world go around :-)

To be honest Germany and Netherlands are the only net benefactors of the eurocurrency. Even the France is losing money on it in a long term.

From a German perpective is completely practical to protect the status quo and to benefit from it.

businesslive.co.za/bd/world/europe/2019-02-25-netherlands-and-germany-the-only-real-euro-winners-study-finds/

They've sucked the juices out of South Europe while still being perceived by most as an EU finacial 'sponsors'. Not bad, in it? :-)
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
30 Dec 2019 #66
No. The central organs have become alienated from the member sates...

"Central organs"! :)

Next you will say the EU does state-directed command-economy....

You are like Spike, just the other side of the coin!
mafketis 23 | 8,373
30 Dec 2019 #67
"Central organs"! :)

Facetious! I forgot that Germans don't do sarcasm.... Central bureaucracy if you will...

Anyhoo, look for yourself, browse through the white paper and the reflection papers (all available in German) and ask if they read like a group that can do anything beyond forming new committees....

ec.europa.eu/commission/future-europe/white-paper-future-europe/white-paper-future-europe-way-ahead_en
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
30 Dec 2019 #68
I forgot that Germans don't do sarcasm....

It's hard....
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
30 Dec 2019 #69
Germans indeed do sarcasm, only it's different from the Anglo-Saxon variety.
Wincig 2 | 197
31 Dec 2019 #70
@Spike31

You're right about Germany and the Netherlands being the only beneficiaries of the euro.. but that is entirely other Europeans' (and especially Southern Europeans) fault. if you go back to pre euro era, you will find that the countries more in favour of adopting the euro were the likes of Italy, Greece or France and certainly not Germany. What is the reason for this? Simple: lack of basic understanding of how the economy works .. The analysis on their side was, as always, political and not economical in the sense that they viewed the upcoming euro as a proxy for the DM, as strong currency and said " can we have a bit of that, can Germany share a bit of that strength, surely our standard of living will then get closer to that of Germans" .. Worse of the lot was Mitterrand, the French president at that time, a total ignoramus as far as economy was concerned , who only agreed to German reunification when Kohl agreed to take on the euro as a replacement for the D mark (to which the Germans was opposed). 15 to 20 years later, what is the outcome? It is indeed the main exporting European countries which have benefited for the stability of the Euro (before the D mark used to appreciate regularly, making exports more expensive) whereas the other more "fickle" countries who used to devaluate on a regular basis to maintain competitiveness and release pressure out of the system cannot do so anymore..
Torq 32 | 2,999
31 Dec 2019 #71
47% of the Poles believes that Poland would be better off outside of the EU.

I'm not quite sure if the number is entirely accurate, but it is true that the PiS government did a lot to undermine Polish position in the EU; at the same time they often tried to justify their dubious "reforms" by claiming that they simply try to make Poland more independent of the evil Big Brother in Brussels. Simple, populist tricks, but they would seem to have worked.

EU has been the last obstacle on Kaczynski's way to turning Poland into a quasi-dictatorial state (Belarus-style), but as long as majority of Poles supported our membership in the EU, he had to halt his plans. PiS, therefore, devoted a significant part of their propaganda machine, the same machine that they used against doctors, teachers, and are now using against judges and independent courts (it's interesting how anyone who devoted significant part of their lives to educate themselves, eventually becomes the "enemy of people" for PiS) towards decreasing the support for the EU amongst the general public. If they succeed, the last obstacle will be removed, and once again Poland will be in our "favourite" position: alone, with enemies both east and west, and our only "friends" far away across the Atlantic sea. But of course then we will be "strong, proud and independent" (for how long though?).

Sad times for Poland.
mafketis 23 | 8,373
31 Dec 2019 #72
countries ...works ..

Very true.... by the time it was introduced, the euro was a solution to a problem that no longer seriously existed and has been nurtured as a political tool ever since because the alienated technocrats in Brussels think it will help create a common European identity... it won't because it can't because it sets economic differences in stone making real economic progress in the South impossible. The euro is a symbol of anti-solidarity between member states.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
31 Dec 2019 #73
Poland will be in our "favourite" position: alone, with enemies both east and west,

Maybe not enemies to the West, but probably no friends. It is really puzzling to me how some Poles are so dead set on repeating past mistakes. It would be one thing of they said "We want to closely align with Russia instead", but it as evident that many of them deem Russia as a threat. Which means they are intent on weakening Poland's position without any tangible benefit. Do they really want to see their country into another Ukraine, constantly in danger of interference from Russia? Because NATO will likely not be around to protect them for much longer.

In short, they dream off a kind of independence that is not possible anymore. Smaller countries need to rely/ally with bigger ones if they feel threatened. And even military threats aside, bigger countries can dictate trade conditions to smaller ones, if the latter have no one to back them up.
Spike31 3 | 1,616
31 Dec 2019 #74
@Tacitus
All I can see in your words is: "do as we say, or we will invade you". Well, you don't have any significant tools of a military power projection so you have to be content with, more and more innefective, political pressure. Germany cannot even hit the economy of Poland since we are one of a crucial suppliers of components to German economy. Hitting Polish economy would be hitting German industry by proxy...
Dougpol1 32 | 3,296
31 Dec 2019 #75
It is really puzzling to me how some Poles are so dead set on repeating past mistakes.

One might blame the legacy of the Thirty Years War for that. The whole of Europe went up in flames, and nationalism was to blame - a strong axis of Western powers eventually put paid to all that 300 years later through the power of coal and steel and the birth of the European Community, and that's how the political chessboard is in economic reality. Poles have always played the game above their real skill level, with a fatalistic false sense of importance; diplomats of the 1600s saw the posturing of other nations, and suggested that political strutting should be repeated in Warsaw, add in the liberum veto, and you had disaster waiting to happen, when one look at the map would have told them that prevarication was not very bright policy.

You would think with all the time wasted in Polish schools on humanist subjects during senior high school, that people would have learnt a thing or two from history, but hopefully all this populism will pass, and as they get richer people will come to realise that Germany and France are their big daddies, and the correct thing to do is to hang onto their coat tails. They can still have the nationalist babble of a proud Polish history, but that doesn't put food on the table, or guarantee Polish independence through the ages.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
31 Dec 2019 #76
All I can see in your words is:

I am not surprised, since you also see Gulags in the EU and probably a lot of other crazy stuff. Poland faces no military threat from the West, but it does from the East, and thus asks for Western support. If it were to leave the Western alliance system, it would naturally lose this help without any compensation for it.

Germany cannot even hit the economy of Poland

Naturally both sides would suffer, since both sides benefit from the current status. But if we just talk about bilateral negotiations, there would be so many ways for the economically larger country to hurt the other without the latter being able to retaliate. Poland has a huge logistic industry, with trucks driving through Western Europe, with Germany as the central hub. It would be simply for Germany to introduce poll taxes for them. After all, if Polish drivers use German autobahns, they can pay for their upkeep (which Polish drivers are currently protected against by EU law). Germany could introduce measure to have Polish workers pay more taxes in Germany, and prevent them from claiming social benefits. (again against EU law). We could implement rules like Macron suggested to prevent polish plumbers from undercutting the minimum wage in Germany. What could Poland do against this? It depends after all on its' many expats, and like with the UK, Warsaw would adopt a conciliatory tone. Poland is also important as a work bench for Germany, but how long would it take for other countries trying to lure German companies away to them by offering better conditions? And that leaves out the possibility of closer economic relations with Russia, once Berlin does no longer need to show any consideration for Warsaw. Again, both sides would likely suffer, but unlile Germany, Poland would not have anything to lessen the pain.

And again, what is the strategic benefit of this for Poland? It does not gain anything by it.

Germany and France are their big daddies,

I would consider them as Poland's big friends. Friends because they are willing to treat them as equals, but sadly this only works if the Polish sides is willing to act in good faith.
Spike31 3 | 1,616
31 Dec 2019 #77
Poland faces no military threat from the West, but it does from the East, and thus asks for Western support.

American and British support to be precise. There's no delusion in Poland that France or Germany would oppose Russian in any significant way (not after a Russian invasion of Ukraine anyway). France because of their eternal love and ingnorance about Russia, Germany because of their economic interest in Russian mineral resources.

Not to mention that bundeswehr is a mess but you know this better than me I presume.

Naturally both sides would suffer, since both sides benefit from the current status.

That's what I'm opting for: let's reduce our relationship to a purely economic one.

there would be so many ways for the economically larger country to hurt the other without the latter being able to retaliate.

Sure, since the US is giving Germany a lesson how to do that right now, I bet Germany as a dilligent student would learn that.

And yet you forget that our economic relations are much more sophisticated. When it comes to the US or Britain yoou're purely an exporter. When it comes to Poland, Germany imports components which are then asembled and exported to the other Western countries with a great profit margin. So yes, you can halt that and shoot yourself in the foot just to show 'those bloody Poles' who's 'the boss'.
Dirk diggler 9 | 4,550
31 Dec 2019 #78
guarantee Polish independence through the ages.

Actually it does. Its thanks to Polish nationalism that Poland isn't being raped and pillaged by turd worlders like Germany, France, UK, etc. In a few decades the natives in these countries won't even be the majority - it's already happening in the major cities and capitals like Marseilles, London, etc where the natives are a minority.

Widespread Polish nationalism and the majority not wanting third world migrants is the reason why Poland hasn't had a single islamic terror attack while in W Europe they're so common that even a politicians says its "part and parcel of living in a big city." Well, not in Poland, that's for sure.

Friends because they are willing to treat them as equals

ROFL that's a joke... Germany acts like they rule the EU which de facto they do. Same with France. They constantly talk down to other EU members and force their directives in even when the majority of the locals are firmly against it. The best example of this is Germany demanding that other countries take in turd world migrants because they decided to invite every freeloader from every sandbox and jungle pretending to be a country. Then when others say no, not our problem - you invited them, you take them in they threaten fines, court cases, budget cuts, etc. Same thing with more recently forcing directives onto Italy and overturning Italian courts decision.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
31 Dec 2019 #79
The best example of this is Germany demanding that other countries take in turd world migrants

Yeah....and still no Bundeswehr in Warsaw to force them...we are such pussies!!!!
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
31 Dec 2019 #80
Germany's geopolitical influence has waned over the decades, yet von der Leyen for a while, wanted to change all that.
Spike31 3 | 1,616
31 Dec 2019 #81
Yeah....and still no Bundeswehr in Warsaw to force them...we are such pussies!!!!

That's because the "EU army" project as an alternative to NATO has failed. At least for now.

Germany's geopolitical influence has waned over the decades, yet von der Leyen for a while, wanted to change all that.

German economic influence, especially in Europe, is still great. There's no denying that. German political influence has waned rapidly after 2015. Especially in central Europe. German cultural influence is, and always was, non existent.
mafketis 23 | 8,373
31 Dec 2019 #82
the "EU army" project as an alternative to NATO has failed

I think the "EU Army" project was meant to help quell citizen unrest (as in France, over a year with no sign of calming) rather than outside aggression...
Ironside 49 | 10,295
31 Dec 2019 #83
Polish position in the EU;

What position? That of a serf? To phrase it better a junior partner of Germany or more realistically as a vasal state? Your position is bizarre.

Kaczynski's way to turning Poland into a quasi-dictatorial state (

Dude, aren't you delusional big time and somewhat of a drama queen? Things you say here are just delusion or lies.

Because NATO will likely not be around to protect them for much longer.

Well if NATO is not around any longer. EU is hardly a substitute. Unless you are talking about Germany and advocating that is a much better option for Poland to become Germany's vassal which is not a new idea.

Problem with that is the fact that Germans are really bad at being say seniors partner in relations and they ten to antagonize people and countries. On the top they have no soft power. German culture is not attractive to Polish people at all, or any people other than Austrian maybe.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
31 Dec 2019 #84
I think the "EU Army" project was meant to help quell citizen unrest

Like the british army does in Britain?

"....There is a long history of soldiers being used to put down civil unrest or subdue public disorder on home soil. This has sometimes been very unpopular, especially when soldiers have turned their weapons on civilians...."

nam.ac.uk/explore/civil-enforcement

Like actually EVERY army if they are needed?

PS: They should help with terror attacks, securing big events and helping out in the case of natural disasters too...oh and fighting against any outside agression of course...

Oh wait...since the EU is a Gulag you expect them to be our jailers, right? Riiiiiight!

German culture is not attractive to Polish people at all, or any people other than Austrian maybe.

You know that Poles have a history of flocking to Germany for centuries? Hell, every second Berliner has a "ski" in his name...half of the Ruhr population is of polish heritage...

How can you ignore all that???
Ironside 49 | 10,295
31 Dec 2019 #85
a proud Polish history,

Poland was an empire long before your pirates financed yours Dough. It kept a balance of power in this part of Europe for about 500 years. Your ended what after 200 - 300? So stop scoffing it only stress your ignorance Dougie. It wasn't about skills ( if we talk about old Poland) but about a game that was much more complex that anything you had in the west.

You had tyrannical rulers that united and centralized their country by set of bloody wars on their subjects, kept in check by a brute force and a state decreed religion - so stop being so condescending will you?

Gulags in the EU

Just a rhetorical hyperbole. However the fact is EU promote an ideology that is not suited for Polish people and it will be rejected by the majority. Pusing it onto Poland is just antagonizing people big time against EU. More that those economical and political issues that majority of Polish people do not perceive that well.
Tacitus 2 | 1,130
31 Dec 2019 #86
On the top they have no soft power.

This nonsense again?

softpower30.com/country/germany/

German political influence has waned rapidly after 2015.

You are confusing Germany with Poland here. Thanks to PiS, Poland plays little to no part in the creation of European policy making. Whereas Germany is still involved in all initiatives.
Ironside 49 | 10,295
31 Dec 2019 #87
How can you ignore all that???

Hey BB, don't take it personally. I'm not being nasty here. Just staying as it is. It works other way around too. Few Germans if any has much of an idea about Poland or it culture and I don't mean those who are doing it as a profession.

This is the way it is. Seems people in Poland are more interested in Korean culture than German. Why is that? I don't know. If German culture would be a dish it could be described by polish people as bland and boring.

On the other hand efficiency and order in Germany is something Poles are silently envious of in a positive way.
mafketis 23 | 8,373
31 Dec 2019 #88
Oh wait...since the EU is a Gulag you

Don't confuse me with those loons, I'm a reasonably rational critic of the very real structural flaws in the EU which have the potential to destroy it if not addressed (and they're not being addressed...)

people in Poland are more interested in Korean culture than German. Why is that?

Again, Germany is now a economic and political titan within the EU but with no popular culture that appeals across borders relative to other countries.... I enjoyed Berlin Babylon and the first season of Dark (not so sure I'm ready for more of that) but there's not much more

Oh yeah, I enjoyed Der Pass but the Austrian part of that was much more interesting than the German... (is there going to be a second season?)

I used to enjoy a fair amount of German pop music but... not so sure what's going on there now....

But K-Pop is really corrupt and horrible (in addition to being bad music it's all the worst features of late stage capitalism commodified into a smooth inhuman.... substance.... it's like a meat grinder for humans
Spike31 3 | 1,616
31 Dec 2019 #89
Don't confuse me with those loons, I'm a reasonably rational critic

One can only be a "reasonable critic" when dealing with a project which is essentially good but has some flaws that needs to be addressed. The EU is not such a project.

To me the EU is an ideological project "a symbol of vanity of socialist intelectuals" as madam Margaret Thatcher put it. A project that doesn't benefit Poland and the values by which most regular Poles live by. It needs to be scrapped cause another '-exit' is only a half-measure. We would all be much more happy with a simple free trade zone without any politico-ideological attachments.

Happy New Year everyone! I'm taking my blumchen to a party so no more "hate speech" from me this year :-)
Torq 32 | 2,999
1 Jan 2020 #90
What position? That of a serf? To phrase it better a junior partner of Germany

Well, I'd rather be a partner of Germany than a partner of nobody, because that's the general direction in which we're heading at the moment.

Dude, aren't you delusional big time and somewhat of a drama queen?

No.

Things you say here are just delusion or lies.

Oh, really? So the blatant disregard to Polish Constitution, filling the highest positions in the state with people like Banaś, Kuchciński, Glapiński or Kamiński, and all the rampant nepotism is all just my imagination? So I suppose the primitive state-owned media propaganda is also a "lie"? Even some of PiS members admit that it's indeed abhorrent to intelligent people, but it must be directed towards their voter base (!). Independent courts would have been destroyed long time ago, if it hadn't been for the last obstacle - the EU and the threat of stopping the cash flow to Poland. Actually, the only way to bring down the regime is to stop the cash flow from the EU to Polish farmers. PiS doesn't give a toss about doctors, judges, nurses or teachers - they are all educated and hence "the enemies of the people", but if columns of tractors and throngs of angry peasants with pitchforks marched towards Warsaw, they might reconsider some of their "reforms" (better known as "deforms").

German culture is not attractive to Polish people at all

Really? German is the second most widely learnt foreign language at Polish schools (and in Poland in general), and the German heritage in cities like Poznań, Wrocław or Gdańsk (Polish cities at heart, but with significant addition of German spirit and tradition) is cherished and respected. The old hatred is waning even in the older generation, and practically non-existent amongst the youth. The number of Poles emigrating to Germany, or Polish students west of Oder, also seems to contradict your statement.

This is vital period in Polish history: we may choose to go the old way - the way of isolation, self-righteousness, and delusions of grandeur (the way that lead us to partitions and September 1939 in the past), or we can choose the way of cooperation, deeper integration with Western Europe (where we belong, as a Latin civilization country), and, as you call it, "junior-partnership". I'll take the second option over the first one any day.

P.S. Happy New Year, everyone! :)

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