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Polexit? Almost half of the Poles believe that Poland would be better off outside of the EU


Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #451
@gumishu

Muslim invaders flooding the gates of the EU are also an economic immigrants and not refugees. Economic immigrants of the worst kind: instead of work they are looking for welfare state handouts
cms neuf - | 1,588
22 Jan 2020 #452
Yes I am sure the Czechs (whose currency is tied to the Euro) and Slovaks (who use the Euro) would be thrilled to ditch their thriving export economy in order to please some eccentric neighboring governments. They are thriving now - in all 4 countries living standards are at record levels, why would they risk that ?

Have you ever worked in those places ? Spent any time there ?
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #453
...instead of work they are looking for welfare state handouts...

Yeah....well....EU membership and the free movement means that any EU citizen...say....a Pole...after working one year in Germany...get's unlimited access to the german Hartz IV, which is the welfare for the unemployed.

And even if you are looking but don't find any work you have access to the basic benefits. Which is in Germany often higher than a regular income in poorer EU countries....

So for the german social system it's not that much difference if it's a muslim refugee or an EU immigrant!
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #454
So you're basically saying that muslim refugees freshly off boat living on handouts will have the same access to welfare state as regular EU citizens who work for them?

You should promote this view among those who believe in a EU welfare state and socialism in general.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #455
So you're basically saying that muslim refugees freshly off boat living on handouts.....

"Freshly off boat" they live in a "Fl├╝chtlingsheim" which is paid for be the state (also by me)....there they are housed and fed as long as the bureaucracy does it's thing and decides about their future status.

A regular EU-citizen does not. He is free to fight with everybody else for an apartement....

You should promote this view among those who believe in a EU welfare state and socialism in general.

What promoting? It isn't exactly a secret...
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
22 Jan 2020 #456
Fru Thunberg is seen by many, both abroad, perhaps at home as well, as some sort of tool or spokesperson for the Climate Change Movement, whose words are solely politically motivated.

While I'm not quite as cynical as some, it's only natural to be suspicious of anybody's motives which seem so pure:-)

@Spike,
What you say makes a degree of sense, but again, we'll simply have to wait and see what happens.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #457
You should promote this view among those who believe in a EU welfare state and socialism in general.

PS: I'm not sure what you mean by this....after all Germany isn't a socialist country....and just today the very capitalist DAX index thrived to new heights...

finance.yahoo.com/news/stocks-dax-hits-record-high-032900637.html

Recently the state reached another income-record....it's so much that there are discussions now about what to do with all the money...so...that doesn't look like an impending collapse of the country because of the welfare costs.

Germany posts record-breaking budget surplus

...It is the third time in the last five years that Europe's largest economy closed the year with a budget surplus. The 2019 surplus overtook a 2015 budget surplus of €12.1 billion.....

dw.com/en/germany-posts-record-breaking-budget-surplus/a-51991140

Something doesn't add up here....
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
22 Jan 2020 #458
Just curious, B.B. Would you consider one of your former Chancellors, the late Dr. Erhard, to be an "austerity" leader?
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
22 Jan 2020 #460
I guess I was referring more to the that time BRD:-)
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #462
What you say makes a degree of sense, but again, we'll simply have to wait and see what happens.

To wait actively and to take action to prepare a favorable outcome for Poland. Let's forget about Fukuyama's "end of history" fairly tales.

There are some massive power shifts which are taking place around the world and in Europe. Like always the new order will produce the new winners and and new losers.

And Poland has a few good cards to play. We just need a government with a more capable foreign policy innitiatives.

I'm not sure what you mean by this...

I mean that for different groups of people one should use different arguments to convince them to a given point of view. Preaching only to those who already share your point of view isn't very effective if you want to grow a wider support.

What promoting? It isn't exactly a secret...

It isn't a secret that the govenment doesn't have any other money other than funds collected from its citizens in taxes, yet many people believe that welfare state is sponsored by, well, a state :-)

We should repeat those simple truths until they become a common knowledge.
Przelotnyptak1 1 | 294
22 Jan 2020 #463
.it's so much that there are discussions now about what to do with all the money...

See what I mean by naming Germany, fat, bloated blood-sucking octopus. .But to European sheep nations, they are peaceful, benevolent pussy cat.
Slavs are Poland's enemies.
Divide and conquer with the new face.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #464
See what I mean by naming Germany, fat, bloated blood-sucking octopus.

Shouldn't the german tax payer say that????

Heh:)
cms neuf - | 1,588
22 Jan 2020 #465
Once again you are speaking nonsense - the government has plenty of other sources of cash. Sale of licenses, tariffs, fines, interest And many taxes that are paid by foreigners. of course none of these will exist in your night watchman state where people would be busy clobbering each other over the head and hunting in the forest for wild mushrooms and szczaw

You are wondering why people call your theories wacky.
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #466
@cms neuf

Naturally, a present situation has to be taken into account. All those changes will have to start from a current state of things to end in a more desired state.

The transformation would take a form of scaling down the regulations, taxation, and shaving off a number of unnecessary offices and a large number of beaurocrats.

Then it would take form of private initiative taking over those branches and government institutions which can be run more effectively by a non-government organizations and private companies. The outcome will tell how much and fast it can be implemented.

Some other changes, like a deep reform of a social insurance institution, will have to wait since the government has obligations which it cannot break towards those citizens who started to started to work and pay for social insurance in a deep PRL. Yet, the new system should be implemented for a young people who are just starting their professional careers.

PS: I provided a link to wikipedia article (very modest post, a stub to be honest) as a reference and I think that's the only source of your knowledge about minimal state :-)

Here's a much better source of knowledge about it.
The Minimal State, Not the Welfare State by Dr. Edward Younkins: quebecoislibre.org/younkins18.htm

Sale of licenses, tariffs, fines

A tariff is a form of taxation.

Like I said, the govenment doesn't produce any income, it only only imposes regulations and taxation on its citizens and then use and distribute the fruits of labour. A good government is the one which leaves the most money in its citizens pockets so they can use it according to their will while providing them with stability and physical safety at the same time.
gumishu 11 | 5,166
22 Jan 2020 #467
A good government is the one which leaves the most money in its citizens pockets so they can use it according to their will ...

maybe I am an idiot but to my mind unbridled liberalism destroys itself unless there are technological breakthroughs that reshape the economy
cms neuf - | 1,588
22 Jan 2020 #468
Are you serious dude ? An accounting professor from an unknown school in West Virginny.

The guy has such eccentric economic knowledge that I am amazed he is in that position - he can't even write in paragraphs, something I learned when I was about 9

But anyway I understand his solution for the old and the disabled is that we rely on charity and the church.

Is this minimal state thing your desired destination after Polexit ?
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #469
unbridled liberalism

You call it an unbridled liberalism and I call a freedom to decide what to do with the fruits of my labour.

Just a little though for you: do you know who pays the most money in taxes? A middle class and a working class. They are the main sponsors of a socialist utopia.

And do you know why? Because they got taxed before they even get their salaries.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #470
You call it an unbridled liberalism and I call a freedom to decide what to do with the fruits of my labour.

Yeah....but if that's the rule then you can close down the nation!

If it's everybody for his own then there is no nation anymore....there is only a weak government and the rule of the one who can buy the most with his money.

That is diametral to your wish of a strong independent Poland. There would be a few rich and influential Poles with alot of weak, dependent Poles and no state which could do anything, especially concerning foreign powers.

They would actually do their thing with the powerful Poles...there would be no strong army...no strong security....the infrastructure would be destroyed in time and the country would be wide open for any foreigner.

Did you really did think it through what a weak gov means? And a gov without enough tax money is weak...it is a starving gov.

Maybe you personally would be one of the lucky ones and you could save alot of tax money, and maybe it would even be enough to pay for your own security forces prowling around around your fenced in house and the doctor when you need one, but the land you would be living in would be very instable and violent...and your country would have not much of a voice.
Crow 139 | 8,583
22 Jan 2020 #471
seen by many, ...... as some sort of tool or spokesperson for the Climate Change Movement,

In an instant Greta can prove to be a new Lily Marleen (Marlene Dietrich) >>> youtube.com/watch?v=TNMUh3UlL7s

She can easily lead hitlerjugend that march in Drang Nach Osten when Poland declare POLEXIT. You know, many evil western Europe started with hint of naiveti. `Coming` of Greta is clear sign of incoming evil times.

I've heard she is of sarmatian ancestry!

Greta? Very funny. Sure she is. Whom else she could be if White European. She is but, her children will see what they are when Greta`s government give some add on to Greta. Greta`s army may be army of freaks. Any version of freaks, as it suits to magnates of western Europe.
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #472
If it's everybody for his own then there is no nation anymore..

That's a totalitarian point of view. A voluntary cooperation between people and the free exchange of goods and services is far more superior than enforced "solidarity". The nation is solidified by its history, common traditions and values and not a governmental redistribution of taxpayers' money.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #473
A voluntary cooperation between people

You mean these little hippie villages where they try to live the communist dream with sunflowers in the hair?

Okay...honest question....imagine from tomorrow morning on all taxes are voluntary...what would you give? And for what?
Przelotnyptak1 1 | 294
22 Jan 2020 #474
Shouldn't the german tax payer say that????

Sure they should. But when you say it is sweet music to my ears, I assume your feelings are the same as mine
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #475
@Bratwurst Boy

If you read carefully you would know that I'm opting for a minimal state, not an anarchy. In a minimal state there is taxation for necessary services, the beaurocracy is minimized and as much as possible is delegated to a domestic non-governmental organizations and private innitiatives.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #476
In a minimal state there is taxation for necessary services,

Yeah..but what? What do you see as necessary services?
cms neuf - | 1,588
22 Jan 2020 #477
No - higher earners pay a vastly disproportionate share of the total tax that the govt collects. That is the same in all EU countries. It's not just income tax - they pay tax when they earn interest, tax when they buy and sell stocks, tax when they buy a flash car, tax when they fly for their holidays, tax when they buy a house.

The paradox is that the middle and working classes in Poland pay a far higher percentage share of their earnings but a far lower gross amount. They also are benefiting from moves like 500+ and 13th pension.

innpoland.pl/152281,panstwo-lupi-biednych-im-mniej-zarabiasz-tym-wieksze-podatki-placisz

Difficult to find a fair system, but all are fairer than your medieval idea of only using the tax for the police and the army.

In any case the EU has basically no say in tax structures in each country, except VAT, so whatever is good and bad about the system is down to Poland's politicians and voters.
Przelotnyptak1 1 | 294
22 Jan 2020 #478
the government has plenty of other sources of cash. Sale of licenses, tariffs, fines,

Tax is the tax difference only in the name.

.what would you give? And for what?

Personally nothing, zero, nada. I would call for the maximum tax imposed on the octopus, sucking dry every European nation - French poodle just a junior octopus.
Bratwurst Boy 6 | 10,583
22 Jan 2020 #479
...well...everybody has his dreams, I guess....

But now back to the real world!
Spike31 3 | 1,624
22 Jan 2020 #480
No - higher earners pay a vastly disproportionate share of the total tax

Here's an interesting take on direct and indirect taxes and who pays the most in the UK:

taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2015/06/30/why-do-the-least-well-off-still-have-the-highest-tax-rate-in-the-uk/

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