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Poles call for EU reforms.

Ironside 43 | 7,944    
20 Mar 2017  #1

About 75% of Poles believes that the EU needs to reformed. Only 15% of people in Poland think otherwise. There is also 10% who are clueless.
Well seems to me that people in Poland aren't that supportive for the EU as some people on PF would like us to believe.

TheOther 5 | 2,954    
20 Mar 2017  #2

Believing that the EU needs reforms is not the same as not supporting it anymore. The French and the Germans are also sick and tired of the way how the EU is set up at the moment. That doesn't mean though that they hate the general idea that's behind the union.
cms 9 | 862    
20 Mar 2017  #3

Well actually 28% said definitely yes and 47% said rather yes. I am in the 47% because I have think that pretty much every organisation can be improved - The EU, the UN, the church, the police, Biedronka and our local volunteer fire brigade.

78 percent of Poles favor continued membership. The other 22 percent are entitled to their view but really need their heads testing.
mafketis 16 | 4,251    
20 Mar 2017  #4

Yes, I'm generally in favor of the EU but think pretty clear reform is needed. It is not clear that one iota more of "intergration" will bring anythng good for example.

I hope it can be changed because if it isn't it's going to collapse.
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
20 Mar 2017  #5

However about 54% of Poles are against a two-speed Europe.

The other 22 percent are entitled to their view but really need their heads testing.

You need your head testing. For you Poland's membership in the EU is a dogma. That is not an opinion but belief akin to those of a fanatic. I not against EU, I'm for Poland and for Polish national interest. Sadly EU in the present form is not good for Poland - simple.
delphiandomine 78 | 15,466    
20 Mar 2017  #6

However about 54% of Poles are against a two-speed Europe.

That's a pretty worthless statement, because that also includes people who think that Poland should be very much in the centre (Euro adoption, etc) of the EU and that there should be no means for Poland to stay out of things that it doesn't want to adopt.

It is not clear that one iota more of "intergration" will bring anythng good for example.

Well, more integration helps remove national barriers. I think Germany and France have finally accepted that the current situation (paying billions out to places like Poland with no real way of punishing Poland) doesn't work, and so more integration is desirable.
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
20 Mar 2017  #7

That's a pretty worthless statement, because that also includes people

That could have been said about 99% of all kind of polls. Yet for some reasons you seem to be taking them on their face value when and if you find them agreeable. In this case you don't like those polls because they don't suit you, so you try to undermine them. Sad.

Poland cannot accept two speed Europe. If other European countries will go ahead with that process regardless the only answer is Poexit.
Seems to be pretty logical conclusion.
delphiandomine 78 | 15,466    
20 Mar 2017  #8

Poland cannot accept two speed Europe.

Then Poland has to join the Euro.

You can't have it both ways.
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
20 Mar 2017  #9

Then Poland has to join the Euro.

Sure Poland either need to join the Euro and abide by their rules that have been set up by others for their benefit or can opt out from the EU allthoghter.

So either Poland will walk the line as a second tier vassal or will take her chances outside EU.

There is another option - all EU countries could renegotiate all agreements to form a new 'better' EU - less centralized. Knowing German mind-set there is a slim change for that happening.

For Poland there two options:
a, Polexit
b, Poland become vassal of Germans for the foreseeable future.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
20 Mar 2017  #10

Poles call for EU reforms.

Really???! Ya coulda knocked me over with a featherLOL

Add their name to that of the English, the Scots, the French, the Italians, and the Germans!! Poland, you're in splendid company:-)
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
20 Mar 2017  #11


stop trolling.
english and Scots are out of the picture.
Germans and French most likely have a different reforms in mind.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
20 Mar 2017  #12

Trolling?? Look who's talking! If you're simply posting in order to provoke, THAT'S "trolling", but if one's posting in order to generate interesting, fruitful, and useful discussion, that's "contributing":-)

Sure you know the meaning of the word you used or are you merely mimicking other English expressions you see on PF?

What exactly do you mean by "out of the picture"? As I recall, actor Sean Connory and many others have desired a clean break from the UK aka the EU for years!!
Crow 133 | 5,628    
21 Mar 2017  #13

Nobody can renew old horse. This race is over.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
21 Mar 2017  #14

Oh, au contraire. It's barely started:-)
cms 9 | 862    
21 Mar 2017  #15

You are the one being dogmatic. I can tell you many ways the EU is in the Polish national interest - since 2004 wages have doubled, exports to the EU have increased 400 percent, discretionary income has tripled, savings have tripled, unemployment has halved. We have better infrastructure, our kids lay football on EU funded playgrounds, our school buildings have improved, life expectancy is up, alcoholism and smoking are down because people have jobs to go to. Poles can travel more easily, work abroad and invest abroad.

What are the ways it damages national interest and what evidence supports that ?
dany_moussalli 13 | 270    
21 Mar 2017  #16

Poles can travel more easily, work abroad and invest abroad.

Let me add that many international companies have activities and businesses in Poland because of its EU membership, VW, Amazon, IBM, caterpillar and many many others, they usually pay better salarird than what polish companies pay, and they employ a lot of people hence decreasing unemployment.
Crow 133 | 5,628    
21 Mar 2017  #17

Oh, au contraire. It's barely started:-)

sure. If you believe in undead horses
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
21 Mar 2017  #18

What you present as a direct result of EU accession could be as well unrelated. You would have to back it up with it with a solid research data.

Some of those points you listed are of a dubious worth even at the first glace.
Even if wages doubled isn't that truth that prices has risen accordingly? Are you talking about wages that has doubled across the social strata or you're talking about median income?

Funny that you're talking about export to EU. You would have to produce data or clarify what export you have in mind. If you're talking about overall exchange with EU countries - golden star not for you.

'discretionary income' Really? What are you basing this on? What this even mean tripled? That is some kind of manipulation or just right away HS. Are you telling me that an average person has three times that much of an income that can be spend or invested in comparison to the same person in 2004? No credits, no deals? Do you even understand what you're saying? That is plainly not true.

Saving tripled? ahem.. clarify.

' unemployment halved' Indeed but is that really an achievement to have like three to four million people emigrate or migrate to foreign countries? Short term solution. Who is gonna pay on peoples retirement fund, health services and all that? Ukrainians?

What I mean as achievements are those:
How many cutting edge technological research centres are in Poland?
How many modern manufacturing facilities producing complex high tech goods?
What percentage of private companies are in Polish hands?
What percentage of small, middle companies in Poland are competitive on the world market in terms of product, income and potential? What percentage of their profits stay in Poland?

What percentage of big companies profits stays in Poland?
What percentage of Poles can afford holiday on foreign shores at least once a year?
What prectegane of Poles own their own household?
what percentage of Poles own a brand new car?
What percentage of Poles have saving that would allowed them not to work for at lest two years?
cms 9 | 862    
21 Mar 2017  #19

Yes it could be unrelated and the rapid acceleration point of those trends in May 2004 could be a massive coincidence. There is plenty of research on the effects of the EU on the 10 accession countries, plus you have a control group available of countries that are outside - Serbia, Albania, Moldova which are hardly massive success stories. Plus you have a perfect before/after scenario coming up just as soon as Mrs May gets her train crash started - get the popcorn out and watch how it works for them.

Of course the alternative explanation for Polish growth might be the brilliance of the 8 year PO government ? No, I don't think so either.

Wage growth has outstripped inflation in 12 out of 13 years since 2004. There has been deflation in the last few years - the end result is Polish workers have much more disposable income. The numbers I am referring to are mean numbers, but the growth is in every region, every single gmina and in every strata of society. The minimum wage has increased 220 percent during this time (though as unemployment shrinks the amount of people still on minimum wage is much less than it used to be).

Savings - Herę you arę right to pull me up - the actual increase in total savings is a mere 130 pecent - it is OFE savings which ha e increased fourfold.

Exports to the EU have increased from EUR 8bn to EUR 37bn - a 360 percent increase. On this measure Poland has benefitted from EU membership more than any of its neighbors.

If you think emigration is the only reason for falling unemployment then it might make more sense to look at the EMPLOYMENT rate - this is the total number of people in work I.e. Jobs created and it has just hit a record high in q3 of 2016. If those emigrants had sat in Poland without work they also would not be contributing to pensions. As it is they are learning valuable skills and sending back billions to give their families more material comforts than they have ever enjoyed before.

I could go on but honestly I work with these figures every day and all my numbers check out and confirm that EU membership has been extremely beneficial for Poland.

In answer to the rest of your questions why not look it up yourself ? but for research centres, hi tech factories, cars, home ownership, holidays, number of Polish businesses, reinvested profits from multinationals then I guarantee the answer will be more than 2004. I have no idea how many people in any country could quit work and do nothing for 2 years - this is not Monaco quite yet and anyway why is that even a desirable thing ? If these are your arguments for the EU being against Polish interests then they are weak points.
OP Ironside 43 | 7,944    
21 Mar 2017  #20

A correlation between two variables doesn't mean that one variable causes the other. As I said, you would have to present more data and some solid research supporting your claims for me to take it all on its face value.

If there is plenty of research on the subject - links please. I ask for a real McCoy if you feed me some second rate HS I'll get annoyed and never again I'll take you seriously.

That could be caused by few different factors. In ascending markets the wage growth is not necessarily an indication of the general improvement of the economy.

The same goes for deflation.
Minimum wage growth doesn't tell me much without correlating data about the cost of living - ratio thereof.

Exports to EU. What about VAT returns and a massive fraud? That issue has been on the news in Poland lately. Wouldn't that fact alter those figures at last to some degree? Also as far as I understand it, a part of the EU export from Poland involve internal operations of some German factories - between their German and Polish branch. I'm sure they are not doing that to benefit Poland.

If you take into consideration those factors a real figure for Polish exports to EU could be something else, much lower.

Those are not weak points. That is a genuine concern. I asked about all those information because an answer to those question would have given me a more reliable info as to the health of the Polish economy. I'm thinking long term here.

Those numbers you operate with with are only a general indication of a very general trends - sound more like a propaganda than a hard data. This is growing that is growing - as if you would have diagnosed a health of a human organism by the length of its hairs. I'm sure you can, bit tricky but you can do it. You can even get right now and then.
delphiandomine 78 | 15,466    
21 Mar 2017  #21

What about VAT returns and a massive fraud? That issue has been on the news in Poland lately.

As you will be well aware, the "massive fraud" appears never to have existed. The introduction of the JPK has led to some increased returns, but these were already forecast by PO when planning the JPK system in the first place.

Quite a few people are asking Morawiecki where the missing 50 billion is, because PiS certainly don't have it.
cms 9 | 862    
22 Mar 2017  #22

You can look for those yourself - there are hundreds of hits on google and on academic databases plus data from GUS, OECD or Eurostat plus all major banks. But like most right wing nuts you have zero interest in evidence. If you want me to recommend one study to you then try the work of Castro, Corelli and Moretti - a joint effort by Michigan and Sorbonne professors which adjusts for all variables in assessing a correlation. Can you provide a single credible study showing that the EU has had a negative effects for Poland ?

On your other points there is plenty of data too - to take just two examples new car registrations hit an all time high in Poland in 2016. Home ownership is also at record levels - it has increased 40 percent since statistics became reliable in 2007

Your point about exports is total nonsense - you do not charge VAT on the vast majority of intra EU trade. Could a fraud of this size - 1000 euro for every man, woman and child in Poland really occur ? If you do not believe these are bona fide exports then maybe it would be easier just to go down to your nearest crossroads and count the number of trucks heading west.

Of course there are some exports to Germany in those numbers - that is what trade is all about, but this is not trade with the German state. It is with individuals and German businesses, it is only in the paranoid imaginations of the ruling party that Germany is an all powerful bogeyman. The rest of the inhabitants of this country, or happy to do business with them and receive the mutual benefits.

To invert this question, why don't you tell me alternative reasons for Polish economic success since 2004 ? Or if you do not believe in the success, then maybe you can supply some data points of major economic quality of life indicators which are going backwards? It can be anything - currency stability,productivity, mortality, teen pregnancy, access to the Internet, education levels, whatever you think you can find. However, you will search in vines since every aspect of Polish life is been revolutionised since 2004. If you are living here, then surely you can see that the country is much healthier and much wealthier.

That is why 78 percent of the country support EU membership.
Adamboy - | 1    
23 Mar 2017  #23

I have some mixed emotions over Ukraine, but there is something that bothers me. Here is a short historical review of relations between Poland and Ukraine that involve the period when the western part of Ukraine was taken by Poland.

And I don't understand why Ukraine does nothing to make Poland responsible for that. Maybe someone here can make it clear?
jon357 63 | 11,640    
23 Mar 2017  #24

That was a bad time, and one which was followed by a worse one - when the backlash came it was certainly excessive and many Polish people, especially women and children lost their lives.

It's over now, the two countries have moved on and have good relations. Nobody wants to prologue the hurt. That's part of what the EU is about. Working together, not against each other.
Lyzko 15 | 2,938    
24 Mar 2017  #25

As there is a USA, there too must be an EU, or the whole continent will be lost and we'll all be back to where we were centuries ago, fighting brutal trade wars based solely on gain, without treaties, without finite goals!

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