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The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #181
Olszewski government

Because of the parliamentary coup, lustration was not carried out and Poland remains in the clutches of the same round table mafia. That clique accounting for some 10-15% of Polish society have profited the most from the transformation. The bulk of the nation can work at Biedronka, provide cheap manpower to assemble foreign products and are even free to travel to dead-end jobs in the British Isles and Germany. And all because the anti-heroes of "Nocna zmiana" went into a panic over what their police files contained. The three major failures of III RP have been: the lack of lustration/verification, the lack of re-privatisation and the destruction of Poland's industrial assets under the guise of "privatisation".
mafketis 34 | 11,899
23 Feb 2016 #182
Because of the parliamentary coup

no confidence vote for a minority government =/= coup
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #183
minority government

Call it what you like, but economically and propaganda-wise Poland remains in the grip of the same parasitic minority round table mafia who have undeservedly lived in the lap of luxury while the rest of the nation has been barely scraping by.
Chemikiem
23 Feb 2016 #184
English source on the release of the Lech Wałęsa documents by Poland's State Archives:-

wsj.com/articles/polands-state-archives-releases-lech-walesa-documents-1456158176
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Feb 2016 #185
no confidence vote for a minority government =/= coup

*minority government not even supported by one of the biggest parties making up the government.

Olszewski's government fell because it was unpopular and didn't have the confidence of the Sejm. Pretty simple, really.
mafketis 34 | 11,899
23 Feb 2016 #186
Olszewski's government fell because it was unpopular

Thinking out loud..... maybe that was the plan all along? In retrospect, it seems that Kaczyński clearly wanted a cause celebre and helping engineer the collapse of a doomed government would help create a mythology about frustrated decommunization..... that he could ride to new heights.....

Interesting thoughts....
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #187
government fell because it was unpopular

No, it fell, because it ran afoul of the roundtable clique -- the SLD reds and UD pinkos -- the core of today's trough-defending movement.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Feb 2016 #188
I sometimes wonder if you really do believe this stuff, or if it's just parroting the line given by PiS.

Combined, the SLD and UD had 122 seats in a 460 seat Sejm. They couldn't cause the government to fall by themselves.

There's a very good article here that explains exactly why the Olszewski government fell. The craziest thing is that the 'list' contained the names of even cabinet members. How could the government survive if it was attacking even their own members?

nytimes.com/1992/06/05/world/parliament-ousts-poland-s-premier.html

The Government's main support comes from the right-wing Christian Nationalist party, most of whose members played peripheral roles in the struggle to end Communism in the 1980's, and were not, in general, targets of the secret police.

The most remarkable thing about this article is a comment made by President Wałęsa -

"If we allow unconfirmed information to be published, if we don't give people a chance to defend themselves, this will turn out to be the biggest victory of the security police,"

Scary to think that the same thing is coming true 24 years later, and it looks like the SB have finally won over Wałęsa.
mafketis 34 | 11,899
23 Feb 2016 #189
The craziest thing is that the 'list' contained the names of even cabinet members.

hmmmmm this actually makes my "help engineer a failed attempt at 'decommunization' that can be used to create a political base among the naive" hypothesis seem more likely. The more ridiculous the list the more likely to fail. And with a lot of the details being forgotten - the idea that the komuchy are still pulling all the strings is kept front and center to keep the angry have nots all riled up.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #190
have nots

Maybe the pinko-red-foreign-serving KOD-ite "haves" should see to it that the "have-nots" also enjoy some of the benefits of transformation. After all, one can never rule out the Bastille option.
jon357 71 | 20,412
23 Feb 2016 #191
And with a lot of the details being forgotten - the idea that the komuchy are still pulling all the strings is kept front and center to keep the angry have nots all riled u

Remember that fascist politics depends on there being real or imagined enemies and this has been a theme of JK's political career. Hence him trying to make Lech Wałęsa public enemy number one.

It's a bit like the boy who cried wolf though - he's done it so often and there's so much of a sh1tstorm each time that nobody quite believes it anymore.

Did anyone see what Frasyniuk wrote in Newsweek about it all the other day?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #192
parroting the line

I follow no line. You are the one parroting the KOD-ites,your glaring guru and the Platformer losers.
All your argumentation steers clear of the all-powerful "układ", the RT clique, the foreign-serving pinko-red establishment, the real shakers and movers of III RP. The motley "Nocna zmiana" crew clearly show who they actually are. To bamboozle the common folk they keep trumpeting 26 years of freedom and democracy as long as the clique get to hold and pull all the strings. Yes, Poles are now "free" to travel and work as street-sweepers in Madrid, child-minders in Manchester or dish-washers in Hamburg.
jon357 71 | 20,412
23 Feb 2016 #193
Constant ranting, Po, and nothing to do with JK's failed attempt to smear the national hero, Lech Wałęsa...
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #194
Frasyniuk wrote in Newswee

No-one needs to read it, knowing it was KOR lackey Frasyniuk writing in Lis' nasty rag. All predictable Michnikite b*llocks!
Ktos 16 | 440
23 Feb 2016 #195
Lustration which will continue to destabilize the Polish political scene for years to come.

Unless, we dig really deep and deep into the past of those walking in shadows within the parliament, "our" EU representatives and government lobbists of many sorts who use dirty money to add fuel to the fire and keep this domestic war going.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Feb 2016 #196
Remember that fascist politics depends on there being real or imagined enemies and this has been a theme of JK's political career.

Fascist and communist, Jon. Both sides used pseudo-nationalistic rhetoric to gain power - the PZPR of Poland were particularly vile nationalists at times. It's pretty clear that the whole Bolek story is designed to take the heat off a government that completely failed to keep their promises, nothing more.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #197
whole Bolek story is designed

Designed? So it's all a fabrication? Give us your KOD-ite narration on this. Not concenring imagined plots, designs and possible political consequences at present but focusing on Wałęsa's actual behaviour.

**Was he 100% lily pure and never had anything to do with the commies so Kiszczak wanted to get even and frame him.
**Was he a paid informer the whole time and should be relegated to the trash heap of history (Macierewicz says so).
**Was be blackmailed or coerced into collaborating but broke with his oppressors and went on to become a national hero.
**Or some other super-erudite Delphic version?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Feb 2016 #198
**Was be blackmailed or coerced into collaborating but broke with his oppressors and went on to become a national hero.

That seems to be the most plausible scenario, judging by what we have available to us. Many others were in exactly the same boat, and they are considered victims of communist oppression.

Destroying an internationally known Polish hero for the sake of petty politics 25 years ago is just incredibly sad. The sensible, civilised thing to do would have been to wait until Wałęsa comes back to Poland and explain to him personally what was found. It's the least we could do, isn't it?

Put it this way Polonius - if an SB officer had come to you and demanded that you observe fellow foreigners in Poland while also making it clear that your residence permit would be revoked if you didn't - would you be able to resist easily? I don't know if your wife is Polish or PolAm - but if she is Polish and you wouldn't be able to get her out, wouldn't you sign immediately?

It's easy to be a hero in 2016 and say that you would resist and so on, but I think it's a totally different state of affairs if you're in a windowless, stuffy room in the average SB building with some guy with a perfectly ironed uniform sitting across from you knowing that he has complete power over you.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
23 Feb 2016 #199
Destroying an internationally known Polish hero for the sake of petty politics

Seems you are hell bend on your conspiracy theories.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
23 Feb 2016 #200
It's hardly a secret that Kaczyński has wanted to take revenge on Wałęsa for years.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
23 Feb 2016 #201
So in his infancy even before he ever heard about that man he installed his agent as Kiszczak's wife - hey that man is a prophet or a time traveler. Is that what you saying?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #202
and demanded that you observe fellow foreigners

Never experienced such an ultimatum. But in the '70s I was once approached by an Edmund Szot (perhaps the dad of the Paweł Szot reporting for TVP these days) and asked seemingly off-the-cuff whether I knew if any Polonian students in Poland listened to RFE and such. He used the typical malarkey about how he was a Polish patriot defending his country against enemies, etc. No remuneration was offered, I said I knew nothing of the sort and that was the end of it.

It's hard to say what I would have done if faced with an ultimatum like the one you described, but in general I find even the sntichery to mods on PF (so eagerly engaged in by your guru) highly distateful. Probably I would haev decided to return home. One can serve Polonia in America as well.

take revenge on Wałęsa

The SB thing is małe piwo. Wałęsa's main crime is derailing decommunisation/lustration in 1992. Kaczyński's party at that time was the only one WITH NOT A SINGLE EX-COMMIE OR INFORMER IN THEIR RANKS. That should tell you somehing about his feelings for Wałęsa. Guess which party had the most: SLD and UD which is not surprising -- reds and pinkos. What could poor Kaczyński do against a band of "Nocna zmiana" anti-heroes including Kuroń, Tusk, Kwaśniewski, Moczulski, Pawlak and others -- all veteran RT clique members,the wheeler-dealers of III RP?
mafketis 34 | 11,899
23 Feb 2016 #203
Kaczyński's party at that time was the only one WITH NOT A SINGLE EX-COMMIE OR INFORMER IN THEIR RANKS.

Except for JK himself....
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
23 Feb 2016 #204
but in general I find even the sntichery to mods on PF (so eagerly engaged in by your guru) highly distateful.

Like Johnny's disgraceful behaviour you mean?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #205
Wałęs

More and more information on the Wałęsa affair is coming out. Do you think those who claim they were harmed by his sntiching like Jagielski and Szyler are lying?

If W. got forced into it, he seems to have adjusted and liked the idea of stipends of 500 to 1500 zł flowing in from time to time. It has been said that he broke off only after the SB stopped paying. One commentator specualrted that W. was perceived mainly as a single-task informer to help pacify the post 1970 rumblings. Later his services became less valuable. Who knows? The handwriting experts have yet to speak out. I am prepared to accept any verdict with no preconceived expecations. May the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth fall where it may. Wałęsa's reptuaion is up to the challenge and he will not lose his hero status.
dolnoslask
23 Feb 2016 #206
Pol this is a honest question, do you believe that Wałęsa set out and and did a brave thing by standing up to the soviets , but later maybe ;looked to more personal gain.

I might have the wrong end of the stick here but either way I would like to know what you think, I gather you were here at the time.
polishinvestor 1 | 362
23 Feb 2016 #207
It's easy to be a hero in 2016 and say that you would resist and so on, but I think it's a totally different state of affairs if you're in a windowless, stuffy room in the average SB building with some guy with a perfectly ironed uniform sitting across...

Yes they were different times and you did what was necessary to get by. Did Walesa believe he was to go on to greater things at the time? Doubtful. You can never know, which is why most people have some kind of dirt way back in their history. Nobody is perfect.

But he did take a stand where others felt safer to stand to one side.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
23 Feb 2016 #208
standing up to the soviets

During the initial S period nobody ever mentioned the Soviets, except for one time. At the S congress in 1981 S issued an appeal to trade unionists in the Soviet bloc to set up theri onw independent unions. Let's remmebr that was the cold war period and all kinds of crisscrossing, mainly clandestine lines of communication were buzzing. I wouldn't be surprised if W through Church channels was plugged into the White House, Maybe we'll never know. If W had been a apid informer, those links ended in 1976. What made him join the dissident Free TUs at that time? Once S was legalised and ticking over, he surely was no longer in the SB's pay and clearly basked in the popularity and esteem he enjoyod amongst Polish workers, the Church and society in general as well as the fame of being sought after and interviewed by Western rerorters. The Nobel Prize firmly entrenched him on the anti-communist side of the barricade.

Bear in mind one thing. Average people, even avid news followers, know very little of what is really going on -- maybe 10-15%. The important things, their mechanics and ramifcations are not revealed at cermeonies, pressers or in speeches.Things are thrashed out, alliances formed and deals struck behind the scenes.Politicians and journalists know a bit more, maybe 20-25%. The most knowledge is possessed by historians but usually only many years after the fact, and still that is rarely ever the whole truth. The real instigators of the JFK assassination may never be known. Spokojnej nocy!
Meathead 5 | 497
24 Feb 2016 #209
The real instigators of the JFK assassination may never be known.

Yeah, they know who they are but what good would it do to bring that stuff up at this time (it was over 50 years ago). Walesa being a communist spy is how long ago? What good is that supposed to do? Poland is showing that it can't govern mainly because it can't let go of the past.
mafketis 34 | 11,899
24 Feb 2016 #210
It's worse than that, they can't help themselves from trying to destroy the past and make it as awful as possible (being addicted to perpetual victimhood)


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