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The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #91
totalitarian nightmare

The totalitarian nightmare has been going on for 26 years during which the "advocates of injustice" clique controlling the totality of the nation's assets have benefited while the marjotiy have endured poverty nad hardship. Zosia Nowak and Jan Kowalski have the choice of working the Biedronka check-out are manning the assembly line of a foreign-owned factory or emigrating. It's high time the clique move over and LET POLAND BE POLAND!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Feb 2016 #92
Oh Polonius... if PiS genuinely cared about people, they would immediately implement a law requiring all state employees to receive no more than the average Polish wage. The savings would then be invested in cutting taxes and providing help to vulnerable people. But no, instead, Macierewicz immediately launched his Smolensk commission with over 100 people earning 25k a month. Is that what you call decent, or fair?

If PiS had come into power and said that they were immediately cutting the salaries as well as imposing all out war on government waste, they would be sitting at 50%+ in the polls. Instead, they're sitting at 31%.

It's high time the clique move over and LET POLAND BE POLAND!

They won't be working at all by the time this government is finished. Zosia will be forced to stay at home, while Jan will drink himself into despair at just how ruined his country is - again.
gregy741 4 | 1,221
19 Feb 2016 #93
hey won't be working at all by the time this government is finished.

this thread is about ..bolek Walesa being collaborator and paid agent to criminal and totalitarian regime and stiching on his friends for money..not about PIS.stay on topic
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
19 Feb 2016 #95
It seems that the "good change" actually involves people losing their inheritances.

But it depends where that land is. I am for compulsory purchase in some cases - where the leaseholder refuses to sell, holding out for a mythical price, and so ruining the landscape for one and all.

I notice that PiS are now starting to talk about putting President Wałęsa on trial.

Civil disobedience.

Walesa is a hero who earned the world's admiration. End of.

When it comes down to their word against his, PIS are the traitors. I would be out on the streets and my dog would be put on fighting mode.

PIS are dangerous k un ter kintes and we need to fight them..

Polonius - I was here in communist times. Were you? I saw how the Poles whimpered and were frightened, and with good reason.
And who were threatening them?

Other Poles.

In Britain that would have meant Civil war. History will reflect that Walesa and his ilk are the heroes. For remaining calm and negotiating a ground-breaking settlement with the communist Scum.

Yet nobodys like the Kaczynskis dared to question that? Time for action methinks, and to put these dangerous nobody jokers in their place.
pweeg
19 Feb 2016 #96
this thread is about ..bolek Walesa being collaborator and paid agent to criminal and totalitarian regime and stiching on his friends for money..not about PIS

It's seems this thread is about ex-communists who want to get revenge against the man who was instrumental in removing them from power.
mafketis 34 | 11,590
19 Feb 2016 #97
At this point facts hardly matter, Polish society falls into a few broad camps (I hesitate to assign even rough percentages).

Apathetic - don't much care either way

Future oriented - We got rid of communism, and things are lot better now for most people, let's move forward rather than wallow in a past that cannot be changed.

Martyrologists - Cannot stand the idea of Poland not being oppressed and are determined that every significant event be turned into another item in the catalogue of suffering (these are people who never gave up on the idea of the Christ of Nations - suffering for the sins of the world - since the world is still sinning Poland has to keep suffering).

As a non-Pole who's happy to live in Poland I'm primarily in the second camp. The current government is in the third.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #98
few broad camps

Fair break-down but incomplete. How about the category of people who are not apathetic nor martyrologists but do not want to live in a III RP built on lies, illicit deals and injustice. Where a clique, formed not on the basis of merit but thanks to behind-the-scenes deals (Magdalenka) have become the main beneficiary of the transformation while millions of Poles are faced with dead-end jobs, unemployment or emigration. Where former communist oppressors are often far better off than their erstwhile victims who as OAPs often cannot even afford to buy their prescribed medication.

There's a good Polish saying: Syty głodnego nie zrozumie!
mafketis 34 | 11,590
19 Feb 2016 #99
How about the category of people who are not apathetic nor martyrologists but do not want to live in a III RP built on lies, illicit deals and injustice

Every nation state in the world is built on lies, illicit deal and injustices at some level.

a clique, formed not on the basis of merit but thanks to behind-the-scenes deals (Magdalenka) have become the main beneficiary of the transformation while millions of Poles are faced with dead-end jobs, unemployment or emigration

I just don't see it. Sorry. The economic problems of Poland (which are real and serious) cannot be traced to backroom deals. Partly Poland is in an enviable position* where the economy is doing mostly very well (before the socialists were elected at any rate) but there's always a lag time between economic progress and increased income. Other problems are more based on factors like education and life choices (there's no way for cashiers at Biedronka to have the same compensation as doctors for example).

Think of it this way. Every small business started by one or two people reaches a phase where there's more work than the founder(s) can do but they can't afford to actually hire someone new. The business either gets through this stage somehow or it folds. Poland is in that stage now nationally. I don't think that economic policies that had failed by 1980 are going to help it get through that stage.

*compared with countries where there's no hope of income increase

Where former communist oppressors are often far better off than their erstwhile victims

The party was (among other things) the place where people who could do things congregated. Of course they're going to do better than most after communism.

Syty głodnego nie zrozumie!

The converse is that 'głodny nie zrozumie sytego' many of those worse off at present are not aware of the economic forces that are actually at play (or how fragile most profit margins are for most businesses).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #100
get revenge

One commnetaior on TVP called this "Kiszcak's revenge from beyond the grave". His widow however claims Kiszczak regarded Wałęsa as a great patriot and treated him wtih the greatest respect. According to Pani Kiszczak, if it wasn't for her husband W would never have got the Nobel Peace Prize. On the other hand, a false SB document circulated to discredit W and prevent him getting it alleged that his collaboration had extended into the 1980s rather than ending in 1976. Go figure! The present revelations may bring us a bit closer to the truth but most of it will forever be lost.
mafketis 34 | 11,590
19 Feb 2016 #101
The present revelations may bring us a bit closer to the truth but most of it will forever be lost.

The problem is that evaluating the documents needs disinterested analysis but those pushing the issue are far from disinterested.

I know there are paper experts who can tell the provenance of paper and ink so they might be able to accurately guage the age and source of the paper (I don't know how fine tuned their determinations are).

I'm all for disinterested historical analysis but not in favor of using that to hit people over the head.

And.... any responsible political opposition in the PRL (such as the church and solidarity) would need to strategically use moles. I assume the church ordered some priests to "cooperate" with the SB for a vareity of very good reasons (with the understanding that they would receive no support from the church if their cooperation were revealed).

The PRL was crooked timber all the way through - there's no way to reconstruct it into a simple straight thing (to borrow a quote from Herr Kant).
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Feb 2016 #102
The problem is that evaluating the documents needs disinterested analysis but those pushing the issue are far from disinterested.

And that's exactly the problem that most countries have. The selective use of documents is completely wrong - which is why it should either be completely opened up for analysis by everyone, or simply locked away. The current use whereby those in power selectively abuse political opponents while silencing debate about their friends - it's disgusting.

Still, is anything worse than watching the PZPR public prosecutor Piotrowicz now standing with PiS and hounding Wałęsa, just like used to hound other Solidarność members?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #103
paper experts

IPN said it is possible to distinguish between genuine documents and forgeries two ways: the physical state (paper, age, ink, erc.) and content.
Someone with access to a period typewriter and paper stock plus rubber stamps could produce a perfect forgery but would not be able to age it.

Testing woudl indicate whether a document dated 1970, 1980 or whatever actually came from that period by the state of the paper and ink.
None of this in any way diminishes Wałęsa's role in peacefully overthrowing communism. All statesman have had moments of weakness, taken wrong decisions or otherwise stumbled. It's too bad he went to such lengths to destroy evidence after becoming president.
jon357 69 | 19,502
19 Feb 2016 #104
I know there are paper experts who can tell the provenance of paper and ink so they might be able to accurately guage the age and source of the paper

Even if the paper and ink are contemporary, it doesn't prove any wrongdoing on President Wałęsa's part.

As a trade union official during the PRL it would be more newsworthy if he hadn't had to have contact with the authorities.
Harry
19 Feb 2016 #105
PZPR public prosecutor Piotrowicz now standing with PiS and hounding Wałęsa, just like used to hound other Solidarność members

Well, at least Piotrowicz chooses to be Polish and so isn't quite as vile as those 'Polish' 'patriots' who criticise Walesa but refuse themselves to even be Polish.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #106
hadn't had to have contact

Contacts are one thing, taking moeny to snitch on work mates? Maybe in your circles that is an admirable trait? Check out how he fixed Szyler's clock for 30 pieces of silver.

silencing debate about their friends

Where do you see this? Write an email to GW and they will gladly publish anything to smear Poland's democratically elected government. Same with Newsweek and other rags. It was PO that silenced all debate on the Bolek question. The film shown last night on TVP1 was suppressed by PO censorship for 8 solid years, A book on the same subject had to stay in storage for the same period.
Ktos 16 | 440
19 Feb 2016 #107
but refuse themselves to even be Polish.

Just like your English language skills refused to develop past kindergarten. A proper way to express you opinion (not a fact) is to rewrite this as: ...but refuse to associate with things/items that symbolise Polish character or we could write: ...but refuse to engage in standard Polish style of behaving. You know, there many ways this sentence could be written, try to lift the level here (this is not illiteracy game show) because this is a hopeless display of literacy by one who by what I can see has been born in an English speaking country.

Going back to what you have written, just who are you to assess who is more or less Polish? Provide some categories you go by. Walesa has a dark past, he grabbed power but stabbed Poland in the back at same time. Basically, one user replaced the other user , only the latter has been named hero as he took advantage of Polish desperate plea for economic change (this without the knowledge of pitfalls of the western system). He also played on weaknesses (by weaknesses I do not mean to assign a negative connotation - traditions drive emotions and can therefore be one's weakness) of many as he draped himself in the Catholic flag.
jon357 69 | 19,502
19 Feb 2016 #108
Contacts are one thing, taking moeny to snitch on work mates?

Now don't be so naive. Or just disingenuous.

More interesting is how Jaro Kaczynski got out of internment whereas the true dissidents, Lech Wałęsa, Adam Michnik, Jacek Kuroń etc had it so much harder. Who was helping him?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Feb 2016 #109
More interesting is how Jaro Kaczynski got out of internment whereas the true dissidents, Lech Wałęsa, Adam Michnik, Jacek Kuroń etc had it so much harder.

Jarosław wasn't there at all, so it's no surprise he was sleeping while everyone was getting hauled off to internment camps. Despite the best efforts of PiS, it's pretty clear that Jaro simply wasn't part of it.

Lech on the other hand...just how did he get out so quickly?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #110
Lech on the other hand

Say what you will, not only is Rajmund a nobody, but even Lech is a minor figure and small player compared with Wałęsa. Even if he had served his full term that was not that epoch-making period comparable to the collapse of communism of which Wałęsa and Jaruzelski were the prime movers (at least as far as anyone can see).

Modyfiyng the subject, anyone notice Wałęsa admitting "I made a mistake but of a different kind?" He said there is one person still alive who can clear his name and he's hoping he'll come forward. Sounds mysterious. Maybe just a red herring to confuse the issue. Nie wiem.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
19 Feb 2016 #111
Say what you will, not only is Rajmund a nobody

Nobodies didn't get their children to star in movies in the PRL, nobodies had no chance of working on/in the American Embassy and certainly nobodies had no chance of getting a nice flat in Zoliborz in flattened post-war Warsaw. I leave it to you to work that one out.

Someone certainly should be asking questions about how Jarosław in particular was able to go from being a nobody up until 1989 to suddenly playing a central part in politics a couple of years later.
Ktos 16 | 440
19 Feb 2016 #112
Maybe just a red herring to confuse the issue.

Sounds like it. I don't think anyone can clear his name, if anything more evidence against him is still to be revealed, now hopefully it keep surfacing so the public can learn at least some of the truth.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
19 Feb 2016 #113
Now don't be so naive.

All that info about Wałęsa is nothing new. Personally I think that that spectacle unfolding in the media is redundant. That man plays no part on the political scene in Poland. He hasn't been involved in anything remotely resembling a real political activity for years, nobody cares what he has to say. There was no need to expose him in this way.

He is in the world for bad or worse a symbol of the Solidarity movement in Poland, I would just let him be, provided he would stop forthcoming with opinions about political situation in Poland.

More interesting is how Jaro Kaczynski got out of internment whereas the true dissidents

That is just something I would advice against i.e. slander based on individual political sympathies or lack of those thereafter. It just the worst kind of gossip.

Lech Wałęsa, Adam Michnik, Jacek Kuroń etc had it so much harder.

Did they? Somehow I don't see they had that much harder. Has somebody wrote a comparison study on levels, degrees and tiers of the hardship which particular members of the opposition faced while in the custody of Jaruzelski regime? Adorned with humorous engraving and with charts and diagrams.

I would think that prominent or know in the west as dissidents have been treated better than some obscure or unknown to the public members of the opposition.

I don't think that Adam Michnik has been treated badly. After all he was defending Jarzuleski saying or writing famous - "F@@ek off from the general!" Also he said that a person in change od his imprisonments "Kiszczak is an honorable man". I would think that such an attitude would indicate he remembered his time behind bars with nostalgia and found memories. Unless the man is a masochist he was apparently having a time of his life.

Nobodies didn't get their children to star in movies in the PRL

Said an expert. How do you know that?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #114
children to star in movies

Whatever he did or did not do, he did not destroy Poland's
industrial assets that way your beloved ex-PZPR man Balcer did.
III RP was not built upon Rajmund's accomplishments or failures but on the Wałęsa-Kiszczak deal which created a new, undeservedly privileged class at the expense of the Polish nation as a whole.

BTW it's no surprise that your beloved rag is lambasting yesty's TV exposé using pretty the stereotypical Wałęsa-defending arguments. Then they ran internet comments pouring scorn on PiS (what else!?) Insteresting how those crafty devils ration and/or censor public comments. When Poles saw through KOD's deceptive ruses and lying slogans, they suddenly stopped running them. Is that Michnikite democracy or free speech? Anyone know?
Harry
19 Feb 2016 #115
provided he would stop forthcoming with opinions about political situation in Poland.

That's the other reason he's under attack from PIS lovers (that and the fact that he dared to be the man that they dreamed about being but were not brave enough to be).
jon357 69 | 19,502
19 Feb 2016 #116
Basically yes. Jaroslaw is bitter that it wasn't him who got all the glory and never will be him.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
19 Feb 2016 #117
info about Wałęsa

Some of it is, some of it isn't. Unless you're a professional wałęsologist you probably didn't know that Wałęsa was always attracted by the big nad powerful. It turns out that while doing military service he signed up as an informer for internal military surveillance. That's not unusual for a simple country lad who wnated to get ahead int he worst way. What other options were open to him? So his SB days were not his first such activity. At least I didn't know that. Anyone interested should watch TVP Info as well other TVP news programmes.
Harry
19 Feb 2016 #118
other TVP news programmes.

I wonder why you recommend that channel. Why not the channels that don't make up fictional events and don't ignore real events?
Librarius - | 91
19 Feb 2016 #119
What's wrong with being a secret collaborator of the Polish Secret Security of the former era?

Did the very fact of collaboration hurt anyone?


Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
19 Feb 2016 #120
(.....Walesa......) I would just let him be, provided he would stop forthcoming with opinions about political situation in Poland.

What? And why would that be?

he did not destroy Poland's industrial assets that way your beloved ex-PZPR man Balcer did.

Have you ever been to Slask Polonius? I don't think so. It's a wasteland - and if the old industries were still pouring out their toxic pollutants the country would be bankrupt - IMF style - all over again.

Don't speak of subjects that you clearly know nothing about.


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