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The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak


Harry
18 Feb 2016 #61
receipts signed by Wałęsa for the cash paymetns he had received.

Without video of those signatures being made, those pieces of paper are slightly less valuable than the copy of the gospels I have which has been signed by the authors.

Probably the dossiers will reveal many other facts not only about Wałęsa.

I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that nothing is 'revealed' that in any way reflects badly on anybody involved with PIS.
OP Ziemowit 13 | 4,343
18 Feb 2016 #62
But anyway, if it's revealed that Wałęsa was a paid informer, then it means that *every* figure in Polish political history is now under suspicion

That's possible and such revelations have seen the light. I have never been looking in detail into such stories myself, that's why I must rely on the opinion of competent people. Quite a number of them have appeared on TVP recently (in :Wiadomości" on TVP1 and programmes that follow it immediately on TVP3 (the continuation of the "Wiadomości" interview and then "Minęła 20-ta") in the context of Mrs Kiszczak bringing in those papers to the IPN. And believe me, at present I have no reason to judge those people as selectively picked up PiS propagandists while I am attentively pricking my ears up to any possible, subtle or obvious, pro-PiS propaganda on public TV.

One of such is historian Sławomir Cenckiewicz, co-author of the book "SB a Lech Wałęsa" whose comments seem to be fair, balanced and based on facts. I should underline this as I am not necessarily of the same opinion about the other co-author of the book, Piotr Gontarczyk. Several others such as historian (and alpinist) Andrzej Paczkowski have been interviewed as well. These are certainly not the people who seek revenge against Lech Wałęsa. As to Rajmund Kaczyński, I am not aware of any search into his biography in the context of him being an SB informer by the serious and competent people which, of course, does not mean there aren't any.
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #63
I am not aware of any search into his biography in the context of him being an SB informer by the serious and competent people which, of course, does not mean there aren't any.

There were some articles in the media about 10 years ago alleging various things - all quite complicated.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
18 Feb 2016 #64
if it's revealed that Wałęsa was a paid informer, then it means that *every* figure in Polish political history is now under suspicion

Sorry to burst your bubble, there is no needs for ifs or buts, every figure in Polish history should be under suspicion including Walensa. Those who are rising to his defense ( as it has been quite clear for some time that he is less than heroic and hide many a skeleton in his wardrobe) are doing that only because he was/is a one of pillars the post-communist system that hopefully comes to an abrupt and infamous end.

Without video of those signatures being made, those pieces of paper are slightly less valuable than the copy of the gospels I have which has been signed by the authors.

Harry it is not about your claims and your posts on PF, those things debated above are a serious stuff in the real world. Now run back to your mates they are building another castle in the sand without you.

that nothing is 'revealed' that in any way reflects badly on anybody involved with PIS.

Come on, spare us your ridiculous notions, what the Kiszczak's widow has do to with PiS? Nothing at all.
You are posting the mind boggling nonsense on this forum.
mafketis 34 | 11,898
18 Feb 2016 #65
Without video of those signatures being made, those pieces of paper are slightly less valuable than the copy of the gospels I have which has been signed by the authors.

There is a certain kind of person who claims to hate the entire PRL system but who absolutely believes in the accuracy and believability of PRL documents.

These are data points, nothing more nothing less.

Of course he had contact with the SB what high profile figure in the PRL could avoid contact with the SB? It's in a lot of people's interest to 'prove' active collaboration of Wałęsa and the SB (ironically this is a case where ex-commies' and Kaczyński's interests dovetail though for different reasons).

Since I have no vested interest in seeing LW as either a blessed saint or a national traitor I don't especially care, he was important in ending the PRL and he deserves a lot of gratitude for that.
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #66
It has echoes of the Lista Wildstein that PIS leaked a few years ago. Half the names on the list were retired Headteachers, university lecturers etc that the SB had contacted to ask for references for new-hire staff and a great chunk of the rest were either people they'd interviewed for exit visas etc, officials from voluntary bodies like trade unions, housing co-operatives etc or just civil servants that they'd had professional contact with for mundane reasons.

But the mud still stuck and caused huge problems for some people living in small communities who were falsely branded Stasi-style collaborators.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
18 Feb 2016 #67
It has echoes of the Lista Wildstein

The problem is that such a list never existed. It was the IPN list.

There is a certain kind of person who claims to hate the entire PRL system but who absolutely believes in the accuracy and believability of PRL documents.

Another expert from the bushes.lol
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #68
The problem is that such a list never existed. It was the IPN list.

It very much existed, is online even now in a searchable form and was leaked to the public domain by the PIS figure Bronisław Wildstein - hence the name.

And it caused huge rancour in small communities.
OP Ziemowit 13 | 4,343
18 Feb 2016 #69
Ladies and Gentelmen, let me introduce Mrs Maria Kiszczak, poet, economist, author of scandals... and wife of the late general Czesław Kiszczak...

kiszczak_m
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #70
Looks younger than the late general, doesn't she...

Not that there's anything wrong with that at all.

His death and decline wasn't sudden so it isn't as if he just forgot to burn the alleged documents. Perhaps he intended that his wife should sell them, however she seems to have gone about it in rather a ham-fisted way.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #71
Wałęsa was more guilty

Watch TVP INFO at 17.30 today for part of the secret SB films.
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #72
Given that you posted at 17.33 do you have a time machine?
gregy741 5 | 1,529
18 Feb 2016 #73
should we rename Gdansk airports name to smthng like -Bolek -confident airport?any ideas?
jon357 71 | 20,410
18 Feb 2016 #74
should we rename Gdansk airports name to smthng

A shame there are so few streets etc named after Gierek. Katowice Airport though would be more suitable than Gdansk for Him.

Lech Wałęsa however will be vindicated by history. The Kaczynski twins, especially Jaro, will not.
Ironside 51 | 11,339
18 Feb 2016 #75
It very much existed, is online even now in a searchable form and was leaked to the public domain by the PIS figure Bronisław Wildstein - hence the name.

Nevertheless it was IPN list, regardless and any other journalist could have received such a list should they apply.
Had no balls and blame it all at BW.
gregy741 5 | 1,529
18 Feb 2016 #76
Lech Wałęsa however will be vindicated by history

yup..historically speaking ,he is joining Branickis and Radziwils club ,now.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #77
a time machine?

No, it went on the air and I immediately wanted to share it with fellow-PF-ers. That's called solidarność.
Even the short excerpts showed that Michnik led the way in fraternising with the commies, drinking toasts to Kiszczak and acting liek the emcee. Others were turned off by his performance including Prof. Stelmachowski, Władysław Frasyniuk and Lech Kaczyński who found the spectacle embarrassing. Next week a documentary produced on the basis of this footage will be shown on TVP.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #78
Even the short excerpts showed that Michnik led the way in fraternising with the commies, drinking toasts to Kiszczak and acting liek the emcee.

So in other words, the footage was taken completely out of context and used as propaganda against Michnik. What a surprise.

Either air the whole lot unedited or don't air it at all. However, nice to see that Lech Kaczyński was also at Magdalenka. How did he get there if he wasn't part of the 'conspiracy'?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #79
alleging various things

All kinds of people and rags allege various things. Rajmund, whetever he did or didn't do, is simply not in the same league as Michnik, Wałęsa or Kiszczak. Since he wasn't much of a dad, there's better chance that Mrs Kaczyńska was instrumental in getting her sons into a film. She was both an extremely paedocentric mum (as unhappily married women often are) as well as a Polish literary expert who worked at the literary Research Institute of PAN.

The obsesssive focus on such a nobody as Rajmund is clearly a desperate attempt by PiS-bashers to discredit today's ruling camp at all cost. Even to the point of reviling a long dead and buried corpse. The PO hate industry was truly created an army of Frankensteins.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #80
Rajmund, whetever he did or didn't do, is simply not in the same league as Michnik, Wałęsa or Kiszczak.

What makes you so certain that he isn't in their league? And if he's not, why don't you support a full and open investigation into his life to reveal the truth?

Since he wasn't much of a dad, there's better chance that Mrs Kaczyńska was instrumental in getting her sons into a film.

She was a nobody and wouldn't have had the clout to pull it off. Remember, film roles didn't go to just anyone, but rather those that were well connected politically. I leave it to you to deduce what that might mean.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #81
don't you support a full and open investigation

Who said I don't? It'd be a waste of time but that never stops crazed PiS-bashers, does it?. Let's also X-ray Wałęsa's late dad while we're at it. First of all I have absolutely no say in the matter, so I could say I support the full lustration of Delph and his guru, and it still wouldn't happen.

Lech Wałęsa

TVP1 have shone the spotlight on the Bolek affair. Irrefutable evidence shows that Wałęsa not only was a paid informer SB and snitched on his workmates in extenso (1970-1976), but as president destroyed incriminating files and forced his subordinates to suppress all mention of his activity. Luckily, the UOP people weren't too savvy and didn't know that such info was stored in different places to which historians knew how to gain access. The documentary shown on Wednesday night on TVP1 was produced 8 years ago was never shown during the PO regime. IPN's book "Wałęsa i SB" was stored at the IPN but not sold. They too were under PO pressure to suppress the truth, Now it is all coming out. Probably other senior former regime types have also stolen state documents like those Kiszczak illegally appropriated and added to his private collection. It's like Olszewski's revenge. Had Wałęsa admitted his error in 1992, he would have been forgiven considering his achiements for Free Poland. Instead he lied, stonewalled and tried to destroy evidence. The result is what he's going through today.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #82
Irrefutable evidence

Given that the head of the IPN today admitted on TVN24 that expert handwriting analysts hadn't confirmed that the documents contained an authentic signature, how can it be irrefutable evidence?

Try harder, Polonius.

Furthermore - at the end of the day, who does this benefit? Poland? Not really - we now have the spectacle of the allegations being repeated all over the world. Poland is weaker in their eyes, and who gains? Putin.

It's sad that this government is destroying Poland for their own cynical gain.

The lies and propaganda on TVP continue...

polska.newsweek.pl/wiadomosci-sklamaly-w-sprawie-teczek-tw-bolka-z-domu-kiszczaka,artykuly,380069,1.html

"Wiadomości" reported that the documents of Kiszczak have been examined by a graphologist. It is not true. The fact is that this has not yet happened, informed the head of the IPN.

Wake up, Poland. You're walking straight into a totalitarian nightmare, and no-one is going to help you but yourselves - again.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #83
who does this benefit?

The Polish people have the right to know. History cannot be based on myths but on hard, irrefutable facts.
Hopefully, this will also lead to the dislodging of the stranglehold over Poland by the PZPR/KOR/KOD elites in the service of foreign interest groups. Those cliques have undeservedly been the main beneficiaires of the RT and hopefully some of the benefits will finally be enjoyed by the vast majority of Poles.

Those cliques have the option of admitting this injusrtice and helping to spread the wealth around or digging in and defending their ill-gotten perks and privileges which will lead to a huge, mutually destructive rumpus. The choice is theirs to make.
gregy741 5 | 1,529
18 Feb 2016 #84
Given that the head of the IPN today admitted on TVN24 that expert handwriting analysts hadn't confirmed that the documents contained an authentic signature, how can it be irrefutable evidence?

no...he said it will take some time to confirm handwriting.rest of documents,about several hundrets pages ,are already confirmed as authentic.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #85
The Polish people have the right to know. History cannot be based on myths but on hard, irrefutable facts.

Agreed. The problem is that we already have people on record saying that they were responsible for forging many documents connected with Wałęsa. We also have the problem that these files are known to be incomplete and to be full of forgeries.

Hopefully, this will also lead to the dislodging of the stranglehold over Poland by the PZPR/KOR/KOD elites in the service of foreign interest groups.

Actually, haven't you followed the news? The latest situation is that at least 1,400 hectares of land in December has been compulsory purchased by the State, and the number for January is expected to be higher. That land belonged to someone. It seems that the "good change" actually involves people losing their inheritances.

Those cliques have the option of admitting this injusrtice and helping to spread the wealth around or digging in and defending their ill-gotten perks and privileges which will lead to a huge, mutually destructive rumpus. .

It's all lovely buzz-words, but how do you explain the way that PiS have focused heavily on putting their men into power rather than "ordinary Poles"?

The latest information today is that the EU might well withhold agricultural subsidies.

Either way, this government's corruption makes me sick.
gregy741 5 | 1,529
18 Feb 2016 #86
. We also have the problem that these files are known to be incomplete and to be full of forgeries.

nope......its very hard ,if possible to forge those documents..due to archiv methods,paging ect.existence of those document are always confirmed in other places,archives and numbered with codes,with names of those who made them ect..its very complex but very effective. ..you are just ignorant.

not to mention,that similar documents confirming walesa as bolek were already found in many places,including cech republic archives.ipn ect
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #87
What are you talking about? It was routine and commonplace for the secret police services in Communist countries to outright fabricate a lot of things. We know for instance from the Stasi that junior officers would tend to make up stuff, because they were evaluated on the basis of the information received, even if it wasn't quite true.

At the end of the day, be careful for what you wish for. If you bring Wałęsa down, don't be terribly surprised if the same thing happens to others.
gregy741 5 | 1,529
18 Feb 2016 #88
What are you talking about? It was routine and commonplace for the secret police services in Communist countries to outright fabricate a lot of things

yup...but there are their own documents in their own archives,that suppose to be their information needed for operating activities...and there was a system preventing from forgeries,adding,and removing documents from files.

historians can easily identify if documents are authentic by following codes,names ect.
experts already confirmed that documents are authentic...whenever information in those documents are honest and according to truth is another matter and have to be verified
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,446
18 Feb 2016 #89
putting their men into power

Those ARE ordinary Poles, if they are not PO/KOD/KOR or ex-PZPR types (except your "endless" Piotrowicz) and/or lackeys of foreign itnerest groups. Your pet above-mentioend groups have already benefited to the hilt, created dynasties and stolen their fill, so there's no need to shed any tears over them.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
18 Feb 2016 #90
Those ARE ordinary Poles

What?!

How can they be "ordinary Poles" if they're in the job solely because of political patronage? We've already seen examples of how farmers are getting paid late because PiS appointed a bunch of cleaners and secretaries to run important district offices - but those people haven't got a clue.

I notice that PiS are now starting to talk about putting President Wałęsa on trial. Such a move would almost certainly be the end of PiS in government.


Home / News / The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak
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