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The dossier of TW "Bolek" - Poland's IPN assisted by police enters the home of the late general Kiszczak


Polonius3 990 | 12,349
19 Feb 2016 #121
Did the very fact of collaboration hurt anyone?

There is a list of some 30 people he snitched on to the SB. When they are questioned, this should come out. Next week could well be crucial.
gregy741 5 | 1,232
19 Feb 2016 #122
yes..there were people prosecuted by SB after Walesa snitching on them...like Jozef Szyler...
thing is.all this was known and documented for ages.but people refused to acnoledge due to massive media and salon protection of walesa.
historians were dragged to courts and attacked,their careers were ruined and reputations destroyed..people like Braun,cenckiewicz ,gontarczyk.ect
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
19 Feb 2016 #123
destroyed

The "liberal" PO was guilty of destroying many peole's lives and careers. They paid lip-service to free speech but suppressed and/or censored all manifestations of the truth that didn't fit their lies and distortions. Anna Walentynowicz's grandson said on TV tonight that his gran, a true Solidarity heroine (who died in the Smolensk diaster), was repeatedly maligned, sidelined and branded a nutcase for demanding the full truth.
Librarius - | 91
20 Feb 2016 #124
There is a list of some 30 people he snitched on to the SB..

Being diligently inquisitive in all such cases you're gonna get undoubted testimony of the truth - saint inquisition always happy to find mere mortals to give in to the Tempter.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
20 Feb 2016 #125
ever been to Slask

Indeed I have and the Katowice metropolis is truly the grimiest place I have ever seen. But not all of Polish industry was that toxic and ramshackle. There were industries and individual industrial works that were savable and upgradable. But such solutions were not sought -- it was destroy, incapacitate and sell off for a song everything in sight (Balcerowicz). Had he explored the option of re-establishing ties with Fiat (or striking a deal with some other car-maker), Poland could have been turning out sellable motor vehicles just like Škoda and Dacia. I've heard that the FSO assembly line was quite advanced for its time and could have produced different vehicles. But to ex-PZPR economist Balcer that was not an option. The result is that there is hardly a single Polish- designed, -made and -branded product known anywhere in the world. Even Wyborowa, Żywiec and Wedel are foreign-owned. Nice, eh? Poles as neo-colonial mercenaries in their own country!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
20 Feb 2016 #126
Škoda

Owned by VAG.

Dacia

Owned by Renault.

Had he explored the option of re-establishing ties with Fiat (or striking a deal with some other car-maker),

They did and tried for years to do just that. Daewoo was the only interested party.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
20 Feb 2016 #127
Daewoo

And Daewoo collapsed not because of Poland nor even the motor vehicle segment of the S. Korean concern, but their ship-building and other branches pulled the who lot under.

Polski Fiat was under licence, then became Polish for time and bore the FSO tag. The point is that post-commie officials did not really explore various options. A car may be under licence and then breaks off on its own. Seat was originaly a Spanish Fiat, then became an autonomous make and finally was bought by VW. The 1957 Morris Oxford is still being built by Hindustan Motors as the Hinustan Ambassador. Various precedents and possiiblites are known.
Ktos 16 | 436
20 Feb 2016 #128
It's high time the clique move over and LET POLAND BE POLAND!

Amen.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
21 Feb 2016 #129
The point is that post-commie officials did not really explore various options. A car may be under licence and then breaks off on its own.

Well, consider that we live in the era of globalisation (for better or worse - it is what it is) - what independent brands are left in Europe now?

Saab is finished, Volvo is owned by the Chinese, Skoda is just Volkswagen with a different shell, Dacia is essentially Renault's low cost brand - there's really no large scale independent production left in Europe.

But in buses, Poland managed to produce Solaris - which is doing ridiculously well. We might not have a domestic car industry, but we have a bloody successful bus industry and the makings of a decent train industry.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
21 Feb 2016 #130
did not really explore

You'll notice the past tense (did not). I was referring to blunders at the start of transformation: the Balcerowicz sell-off and Wałęsa's folly (June 1992). BTW LW is now paying for his cavalier overthrow of Olszewski.
mafketis 37 | 10,880
21 Feb 2016 #131
LW is now paying for his cavalier overthrow of Olszewski.

Cause Lord knows what Poland absolutely needs more than anything else are never ending squabbles about the past.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
21 Feb 2016 #132
squabbles about the past

One can of course dismiss the quest for historical truth and sweep everything under the carpet. "We must move forward," say the KOD-style "have" clique (meaning they must retain their undeserved benefits and privileges and continue keeping the "have-nots" at bay).
mafketis 37 | 10,880
21 Feb 2016 #133
One can of course dismiss the quest for historical truth

If you think anyone in PiS cares about "historical truth" then you're more brainwashed than I thought.

I'm completely in favor of impartial historical analysis (and don't invest any public figures with superhero moral status). But using things that did or didn't happen over thirty years ago to score cheap political points is .... cheap politics and I don't respect that and never will.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
21 Feb 2016 #134
getting a nice flat

Egalitarian though the red regime claimed to be, they catered to the educated: engineers, doctors, writers and other members of the intelligentsia who got first crack at Warsaw's best rebuilt or newly built housing. Old Town for instance was largely for the literati. The PPR nad later PZPR as a band of semi-literate lumpenproles, thugs and peasants knew they wouldn't get very far without intelligentsia back-up.

Was Rajmund (your tag team's favourite bête noire for some reason -- oh yes, we know the reason: another chance for indiscriminate: PiS-bashing) in the PZPR. I don't know, do you? But if he was, his comrades included Kuroń, Balcerowicz and a host of others. The difference being that the latter two helped lay the groundwork for the unfair, injust and one-sided III RP. Rajmund was in a much lower league -- a useful idiot at best.
Librarius - | 91
21 Feb 2016 #135
The PPR nad later PZPR as a band of semi-literate lumpenproles, thugs and peasants knew they wouldn't get very far without intelligentsia back-up.

They were simply running with their eyes fixed on America:

Opowiadał (przyp. Czapski) im o chicagowskich rzeźniach i fabrykach Forda, które wizytował. O ludziach z tanich jadłodajni Nowego Jorku. O micie zbyt łatwego optymizmu i o pudrowaniu śmierci. Relacjonował rozmowy z taksówkarzami i śniadanie z Lechoniem. Opisywał strajk robotników w Detroit i bankiet business-ladies. Przywiózł też anegdoty, które rozśmieszały cały Lafit. Pani w futrze i brylantach prosi, by Czapski się przesunął: "Stary zabierz te dupe" - bo jak większość Polonii mówiła chłopską gwarą. Ktoś daje mu sto dolarów z zastrzeżeniem, że to nie na żadną "Kulturę", "Niech pan to przepije!". I tak dalej.

From the book by Magdalena Grochowska Jerzy Giedroyc: do Polski ze snu

Bolek, Lolek's brother, from the well known bed-time story:

Bolek i Lolek
singingfalls 3 | 50
21 Feb 2016 #136
Merged: Lech Walesa is a traitor?????

This is crazy. I thought Lech Walesa was a Polish hero and freedom fighter. Now Poland hates him? What is going on over there?
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148
21 Feb 2016 #137
Now Poland hates him?

Huh ? Most of Poland hates him since +20 years, now one of top commies kicked the bucket and it turns out he kept some files at home.. what's there is not yet clear but looking at the hysterical comments of W. I wouldn't be surprised If it's all true...

Lech Walesa was a Polish hero and freedom fighter

Or not.

This is crazy.

Why ? You think truth should be hidden because it would ruin nice sounding story ?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
21 Feb 2016 #138
What is going on over there?

Nothing much. The real leader of the government has a grudge going back 25 years against Wałęsa, and so he's trying his latest attempt to discredit him. Nothing new, it's just making Poland look like a laughing stock internationally. The desire for revenge is strong.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,148
21 Feb 2016 #139
it's just making Poland look like a laughing stock internationally.

Post commie Poland IS a laughing stock when one of top commies dies in his own bed with files against W. next to it. One can imagine how they blackmailed that moron with all of that.... and If Kiszczak had it at home, they also had it in Moscow and several other capitals.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
21 Feb 2016 #140
had it in Moscow

Wałęsa microfilms (according to TVP commenttaors) were sent to KGB and Stasi.
jon357 74 | 22,469
21 Feb 2016 #141
The real leader of the government has a grudge going back 25 years against Wałęsa, and so he's trying his latest attempt to discredit him.

And this is absolutely transparent. If certain figures within POS didn't have such a shockingly well-documented history of doing it, they might actually have got away with the smear.

But they didn't.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
22 Feb 2016 #142
a grudge

Not a grudge but a justified complaint. Wałęsa's 1992 folly is what was created the undeservedly privileged pro-foreign-interest PO/KOR/KOD
clique, pauperised much of the rest of the nation and polarised society into a never-ending Polish-Polish war. Lustration whcih could have been resolvwed wtihin a year or two has dragged on and on and will continue to destabilise the Polish political scene for years to come.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
22 Feb 2016 #143
If certain figures within POS didn't have such a shockingly well-documented history of doing it, they might actually have got away with the smear.

The thing about it is just how predictable it is. PiS have been talking for years about who they perceive to be an enemy, and as such, the united opposition was ready for the attacks on Wałęsa. But just - who do they think they are?

I can just see them salivating over the idea of destroying the image of Wałęsa in the world and rewriting textbooks now.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
22 Feb 2016 #144
POS

What one arth is POS? Polish Oddball Society?

destroying the image

Must every utterance of yours be bent and twisted to accommodate your PiS-bashing penchant?! No-one wants to deny or destroy his achievements but historical truth must prevail. Are generations of school youth to learn a prrettified, hagiographic version of Polish history? PO-style propaganda tehcniques, censorship (they suppressed the IPN book on Wałęsa for 8 years of their rule), manipulation and sweeping things under the carpet is actually quite a mediaeval approach to history and certainly not worthy of a party claiming to be so "modern".

It's been known for years that Wałęsa signed things (he has admitted that time and again) but, he explained, only to get the SB off his back and get released. Even if he actually collaborated and informed on mates for money, that was a momentary human weakness of a simple country boy out of a job with a large family to support. Even assuming the latter hypothesis, at some point, like Saul on the road to Damascus, he saw the light, broke with his past and went on to become a key player in the peaceful overthrow of communism which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union itself. No-one is denying his role in that.

Wałęsa is not helping himself at present by thrashing about, changing his narration and introducing new threads (helping commie agent in tough financial straits?!). He has had such an eventful life that it's conceivable he himself has forgotten or mixed up many of the details of 1970-76. After all, that was close on half a century ago.
jon357 74 | 22,469
22 Feb 2016 #145
the more the PIS lovers try to draw attention to his past with Solidarnosc, the more questions will come up about his past and that of his father, who of course is also the father of The Dear Leader Chairman Kaczynski

This is what everyone's saying at the moment.

Did you read President Wałęsa's daughter's comments in the newspapers today? Very dignified, and such a contrast from the insinuations we're hearing from the Kaczynski crowd.
mafketis 37 | 10,880
22 Feb 2016 #146
No-one wants to deny or destroy his achievements

I'm pretty sure that JK does. He made his career by attacking LW, why change a winning formula?

he saw the light, broke with his past and went on to become a key player in the peaceful overthrow of communism

Now now, I thought the official party line is that he was in cahoots with the party (already planning the events of 1989 in 1980), which is why he was allowed to jump the fence into the factory. Didn't you hear about the meeting on the yacht? Don't you keep up at all?
OP Ziemowit 14 | 4,258
22 Feb 2016 #147
This whole row over Wałęsa's alleged TW Bolek affiliation is beginning to run out of proportions. One thing is extremely interesting, however. In 1992 Lech Wałęsa had sent a communiqué to the Polish press agency PAP where he openly admitted having been a collaborator to the SB in 1970s. Then it was withdrawn several hours later on the demand of Lech Wałęsa. Many people evoke this event now, but I can't see it quoted anywhere. Has anyone more details on it?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,116
22 Feb 2016 #148
This whole row over Wałęsa's alleged TW Bolek affiliation is beginning to run out of proportions.

It's just extremely silly. The right wing media seems to have gone absolutely beserk, while the opposition media is very clear that they stand with Wałęsa. It's going to get even worse when he returns to Poland - the hyenas are salivating at the prospect of finally bringing him down, while the opposition is likely to unite around him. His daughter has also spoken of forming a political coalition with the sole intention of taking out PiS. Either way, it's not going to be pleasant.

Has anyone more details on it?

It's the first I've heard of it. Who was in charge of PAP then, I wonder?
gregy741 5 | 1,232
22 Feb 2016 #149
ups...kiszczak enclosed statement and documents regarding walesas collaboration till 1989,not only 70 ties.have you seen it?
kresy.pl/wydarzenia,polityka?zobacz/kiszczak-walesa-wspolpracowal-z-sb-do-1989-roku
funny ,only hardcore commies defend walesa,those who were with him back then,regard him as traitor.
Polonius3 990 | 12,349
22 Feb 2016 #150
the hyenas are salivating at the prospect of

The KOD-tie, Michnikite and Delphic hyenas are salivating at the prospect of once again trying to discredit the pro-Polish government and suppress historical truth.


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